Robb Could Have Won

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because the North has no navy and thus is vulnerable to a naval invasion. Particularly their main defense, Moat Cailin, as shown by the Ironborn.

So what? Naval invasions can plunder, but conquering? Not with medieval logistics.

I think the Riverlands are far underrated. In terms of defensibly at least they have Rivers. Look at the Reach, they have what? Open grassland... Plenty of countries in real life have defended geographically similar places to the Riverlands. The point is that the Riverlands aren't any less defendable then a lot of other regions.

Spot on.

Robb would have easily gotten Moat Cailin back considering the Ironborn were pulling out of the north anyways. Once Robb went north and rallied the rest of the northern manpower he'd have about 15,000-25,000 fresh troops. So his army would be about 30,000-45,000 strong not including Edmure's soldiers.

Don't forget that now Edmure has the chance to organize and rally the entire Riverlands, instead of only a third, like he had to do the entire time since the Golden Tooth.

Two: Robb couldn't win, unless the Vale gave him men he was always doomed. As a king he was a foe to Stannis, Renly and Tywin.

So were they to each other.

Three: The North never faced a whole South. Robb just treating just gives the south time to unite to attack.

You sure of that? I'm not.

Furthermore, how would the South unite? And what does that include? The Vale? The Riverlands? The Iron Islands? Dorne?

Maybe, but it is poorer than every other region, all of which would be arrayed against them.

BS. If you want poor regions, look at the Iron Islands, Dorne and the Stormlands. The North is comfortably in the middle.

If Stannis won on the Blackwater, then he almost certainly would never have gone North, and Robb would have to deal with a wildling army flooding his home. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration. It wouldn't just be smooth sailing.

A wildling army curbstomped by Stannis with 1,000 men. Robb had a mite more...

[Wmarshal]

As to the Stannis bit, the Tyrells still out gun him, and Mace would attacked, them meeting Tywin was part of a plan set up by Baelish. If Tywin wasn't marching to Kl they would have attacked. Stannis is and was Tyrellbane, his reign is their doom.

[Wmarshal]

BBE, yeah, and after they were done killing each other one man would be on top and gunning for Robb.

Yes, Tywin living would have eradicated the remaining rebels and united the realm. If not him , Aegon, or Dany.

[Poppa Bolton]

A wildling army curbstomped by Stannis with 1,000 men. Robb had a mite more...

Except, Stannis ambushed them, and Robb's armies were south of the Neck. If Theon could take Winterfell with the handful of men he had, a wildling army of 100k with steel and horses from Castle Black would cause serious problems. Also, assuming Roose never betrayed Robb, which this thread kind of has to, the Ironborn still control Moat Caiilin.

[Lord Reaver]

So what? Naval invasions can plunder, but conquering? Not with medieval logistics.

The Ironborn were not plundering, they were in the process of conquering. And that with only a fraction of what a united 7k would bring to bear.

Furthermore, William the Bastard of Normandy disagrees with you. In-realm, Harren the black does, too.

I'm sure I could find more examples, but I frankly don't see the need to.

So

BS. If you want poor regions, look at the Iron Islands, Dorne and the Stormlands. The North is comfortably in the middle.

Arguably. Nevertheless, compared to the economy of the entire 7k, the North's is negligible.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

BBE, yeah, and after they were done killing each other one man would be on top and gunning for Robb.

... and have lost thousands of men, millions of dragons, years of fighting, posting garrisons in half the realm, keeping one eye open for the Vale and Dorne and fighting Euron at the same time.

[Wmarshal]

PB, Robb was the master of ambush, that was his thing. Those savages would not have a chance.

[Wmarshal]

True, but one way or the another one king would rule, and the south can easily muster more ships and men given time.

[Poppa Bolton]

PB, Robb was the master of ambush, that was his thing. Those savages would not have a chance.

My point wasn't that the wildlings could not be beaten, but that Robb would have to turn much of his force around and would be blocked by Ironborn at both Moat Cailin and on the Sunset Sea.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Except, Stannis ambushed them, and Robb's armies were south of the Neck. If Theon could take Winterfell with the handful of men he had, a wildling army of 100k with steel and horses from Castle Black would cause serious problems. Also, assuming Roose never betrayed Robb, which this thread kind of has to, the Ironborn still control Moat Caiilin.

So what? Do you figure the Northmen can't march up along the Wall, cooperating with the Watch?

By the way, the 100k wildlings are their total population.

To top it off, the Crannogmen were already giving Victarion nightmares and Robb planned to kick them out of Moat Cailin.

The Ironborn were not plundering, they were in the process of conquering. And that with only a fraction of what a united 7k would bring to bear.

The cheap, undefended parts, for a very little while.

Furthermore, William the Bastard of Normandy disagrees with you. In-realm, Harren the black does, too.

And they travelled all of 20 miles. Not 500+

Arguably. Nevertheless, compared to the economy of the entire 7k, the North's is negligible.

And again, the wondrous unification of the entire 7K out of the blue. As well as ignoring the fact that the North and the Riverlands made up 30% of the economy of the entire 7K.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

My point wasn't that the wildlings could not be beaten, but that Robb would have to turn much of his force around and would be blocked by Ironborn at both Moat Cailin and on the Sunset Sea.

Raven to Last Hearth: "Send 1,000 men to Castle Black, my bastard brother needs them." Done.

[Lord Reaver]

I'd quote you, but your way of quoting makes it difficult to on tablet.

The Ironborn pulled out, when Balon died. How many times do I have to repeat that?

Oh, so now it's the distance is it ? Fine. Leaving aside the obvious solution of simply marching the armies to within that distance of the north, I give you the crusades, particularly the first and third, but also the fourth.

To assume the 7k wont unite is contrary to all previous experience. When Balon rebelled, the entire 7k united against him, despite having recently been through civil war. I see no reason why the rebellious North would not face the same, eventually.

[Poppa Bolton]

Raven to Last Hearth: "Send 1,000 men to Castle Black, my bastard brother needs them." Done.

The only houses that we know that still had a decent amount of levies back North are the Boltons and I think the Dustins (maybe the Manderlys). Everyone else seems to have brought all the men of fighting age. At least that how the text describes it. Also, Robb wouldn't send men to the wall or else he would have done it earlier. It was no secret that the wildlings were gathering for an attack.

The only time he would send men back was if the North was under attack. And he would definitely not assume 1000 men would be enough, especially when the wildlings wouldn't be attempting to fight through a 700 ft wall. They would actually have the wall to fall back on.

[Sir Lee knot]

Three: The North never faced a whole South. Robb just treating just gives the south time to unite to attack.

And they wouldn't have to.

Tywin would die, the crown only has control of the Rock and the Reach. The Vale is neutral and likely to rebel at any moment, Dorne is neutral and likely to rebel at any moment, Euron is in control of the Iron Islands and attacking in the west, Aegon is attacking in the east, the Tyrells can't properly organize an effective offensive against any of these threats and the Lannisters are constantly getting spanked by Robb.

BBE, yeah, and after they were done killing each other one man would be on top and gunning for Robb.

Yes, Tywin living would have eradicated the remaining rebels and united the realm. If not him , Aegon, or Dany.

No they wouldn't. In case you haven't been informed the only time someone ever conquered all of Westeros was when they had three dragons.

Dany does but we're talking about the WO5K and I don't think anyone actually thinks she'll end up taking all of Westeros.

[Wmarshal]

Tell that to Robert.

You only need a good enough army to conquer and propaganda.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Ironborn pulled out, when Balon died. How many times do I have to repeat that?

Sure. So what? Doesn't relate to the question whether the Northmen would kick them out on their own.

Oh, so now it's the distance is it ? Fine. Leaving aside the obvious solution of simply marching the armies to within that distance of the north, I give you the crusades, particularly the first and third, but also the fourth.

Travelling alongside the coast, with Byzantinian support, and later Akkon and stuff. Instead of across the Bite. Furthermore, do you recall what the muslims intentionally did after the Fall of Akkon? Destroying the infrastructure along the coast, preventing a successful landing thereafter. Except at White Harbour, the North didn't have that infrastructure in the first place.

To assume the 7k wont unite is contrary to all previous experience. When Balon rebelled, the entire 7k united against him, despite having recently been through civil war. I see no reason why the rebellious North would not face the same, eventually.

Actually, only the North and the Royal Fleet united against him, fuelled by the friendship of Ned and Robert. Nobody else was involved in the offensive.

The only houses that we know that still had a decent amount of levies back North are the Boltons and I think the Dustins (maybe the Manderlys). Everyone else seems to have brought all the men of fighting age. At least that how the text describes it. Also, Robb wouldn't send men to the wall or else he would have done it earlier. It was no secret that the wildlings were gathering for an attack.

We outright visit the 1,000 Umbers I mentioned. And the North got another 35,000 men.

The only time he would send men back was if the North was under attack. And he would definitely not assume 1000 men would be enough, especially when the wildlings wouldn't be attempting to fight through a 700 ft wall. They would actually have the wall to fall back on.

Well, Stannis managed with 1,000. Apparently it was enough.

[Lord Reaver]

Of course it relates to the question, when you use the fact they pulled out as "proof" the North would have managed to, had Balon not died. You're disappointing me by stooping to the level of your average north-fanatic instead of presenting actual arguments.

Westeros has coasts as well, there is nothing to say they cant do the same. Oh and no, the crusaders did not follow the coast all the way. The route from Italy crossed the mediterranean, not huggong the coast. The Bite isn't bigger than that.

Finally, you conveniently forget that Robert had both the Royal AND Redwyne fleets, so you can add the reach to that list.

[The Wolves]

The North has built a fleet of 50 ships. In comparison, the Iron islands rebuilt their fleet of 500-1000 ships in 10 years. And that is only one of the three major fleets the IT can call on. Thinkibg that the North has either the manpower or resources to match that is delusional.

Who says anything about taking the North in winter ? Westeros has summers that last for a decade, plenty of time to completely subdue it.

The North does have the resources to build and match the Iron Island's fleet.

Manderly controls the Northern city that has all kinds of craftsmen available, it's a port city. Also he has money lots of silver he could hire men and again he has access to the biggest forest in the country, building a fleet matching the Ironmen's is certainly possible.

Though the Northmen are not seamen so there is no way that they should be building a fleet as big as the Ironmen's it's useless. 40-60 ships are probably the number that the North will need.

What would be the point of the Ironmen taking Moat Cailin with the North at its back? Moat Cailin is effective when trying to stop invasions from the South if the Starks and their bannermen are in the North than they are screwed plus the Cannogmen will be sneaking about with poisonous arrows.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Of course it relates to the question, when you use the fact they pulled out as "proof" the North would have managed to, had Balon not died. You're disappointing me by stooping to the level of your average north-fanatic instead of presenting actual arguments.

Sorry, but when and where did I do that?

Westeros has coasts as well, there is nothing to say they cant do the same. Oh and no, the crusaders did not follow the coast all the way. The route from Italy crossed the mediterranean, not huggong the coast. The Bite isn't bigger than that.

Not in the First Crusade. And afterwards, they just reinforced the Kingdom of Jerusalem. And following the coast in Westeros would be difficult - that's the Neck.

Finally, you conveniently forget that Robert had both the Royal AND Redwyne fleets, so you can add the reach to that list.

The Redwyne Fleet did not participate during Balon's Rebellion. Only Stannis did.

[Lord Reaver]

The North does have the resources to build and match the Iron Island's fleet

.

So you claim. Care to back it up with anything?

What would be the point of the Ironmen taking Moat Cailin with the North at its back? Moat Cailin is effective when trying to stop invasions from the South if the Starks and their bannermen are in the North than they are screwed plus the Cannogmen will be sneaking about with poisonous arrows.

There are plenty of threads discussing Balon's invasion, I see no need to repeat it here.

This is about Robb vs. the IT.