Robb Could Have Won

[Lord Reaver]

They only stopped with the north because they kept getting their asses handed to them at the Moat.

Most of your post is pure, wild speculation, and as such not worthy of response.

The Moat you mention, however, already fell to Vic and 10k ironborn.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Tywin couldnt feed them for long.... he would send them out...and robb would be there on hands to attack them...even robb had an army close to 30k...and if he had turned his attention to harrenhal..he wouldnt have ended up marrying jeyne westerling

Sure. But he would send them out on his own terms. That's why you need at least three times the men than the guy inside the castle to make it a fair fight.

[TheSpymaster]

And i dnt think tywin would have waited fr long when his children and grandchildren were in danger of being killed in KL...he would have come out....and the northmen could have defeated them.....with bolton and robb army together....and brynden would have come up with some ambush in the woods kind of plan again....

[the conquering bastard 25]

The Andal Invasion: The Andals cross the narrow sea and make landfall on its eastern shore at the Fingers, on what would one day become the Vale of Arryn. They come under the banner of the Faith of the Seven, with seven-pointed stars carved into their chests, wielding weapons of steel. They fight both the First Men and the children of the forest, sweeping the land much like the First Men did thousands of years before. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea from Essos is disputed; some sources indicate six thousand years ago,^[2] the True History states it was four thousand years ago, and some maesters claim it was two thousand years ago.^[3]

For centuries the Andals war with the First Men and the children in an attempt to drive them out. One by one, the six southron kingdoms fall and the weirwoods are burned. Only the Kingdom of the North remains under the rule of the First Men, in large part due to the strategically located fortress of Moat Cailin resisting multiple attempts to take it and thereafter serving as the door between North and South. Even though the North remain secure, the children of the forest begin their slow withdrawal from the lands of men, retreating deeper into their forests and north of the Wall.(now might not be quite accurate but it's from wiki)

Where does it say they split. IT says they fought both the First Man and Children of the Forest. They wanted to uproot the Old Gods or why else did they want to drive them out? So if the Andals are going kingdom to kingdom, seems like they are once again staying together and taking one kingdom after another. They all fought under the banner of the 7(what is the 7 of yeah its their religion)

The First Men invade Westeros: A human ethnic group, the First Men, invades Westeros across the land-bridge from Essos, bearing weapons of bronze. In a futile attempt to end the invasion, the children use magic to shatter that land-bridge, creating the island chain known as the Stepstones. However, the First Men are able to reinforce by ship, leading to generations of warfare over the land.

The First Men are more numerous, larger, stronger, and more technologically advanced than the children, who try to resist the invaders using their magic. It proves unsuccessful, however: the First Men gradually push deeper and deeper into Westeros, establishing hundreds of petty kingdoms.

Again the First Men came together and took over Westeros. Forming settlement, got into conflict with the children and did like the Andals and burned trees and killing the Children.

What is the similarities they came together and conquered together.

So what part of my last post is wild speculation?

So please point out where it said that the Andals attacked Westeros separately? That it was one kingdom standing alone? Where is this passage that said that the Andals weren't united or that they weren't in Westeros on a mission to conquer and uproot the old faith? Because i can go to the Book and pull Luwin's talk to Bran and point where he said that the Andals came over and destroyed and finished what the First Men started only to be stopped at the Moat. Yet my passage is quite free of stating that they came seprately that they didn't fight under or with a common cause in mind.

[Lord Reaver]

You know, common practice is citing your sources, if you want to be taken seriously.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The coordinated campaign against the First Men Kingdoms. Looks more like a gradual migration to me.

By the way, the wiki is wrong: "Six southron kingdoms fall" while there a lot more kingdoms?

[TheonGreyjoy]

The south would never be united to take on the north and riverlands. Dorne, Iron Island and the Vale wouldnt fight in a united force under either Renly or Stannis. Either of them would face all the same problems Robb would. i think if the Boltons was loyal and never would have burned WF, Robb could have won. Stannis would still have killed Renly and the Tyrells would never join Stannis. Robb just needed to kill Tywins force and then Ramsey or "too fat to sit a horse" clear the north for Iron born and aid the Watch. After that wait, gather men and strike KL with who ever hold it.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Philosophically speaking, I'm of the belief that 'if something could have happened, it would have happened'.

You can only remove an historical event - and imagine a different scenario - when it is completely unrelated from the context and the actions/choices/beliefs/conception of people/history you are studying it.

That is for example, if earth blows up tomorrow with no warning at all and naught remains of us, it still makes sense - for an alien civilization - to consider how humanity would have evolved provided that extraneous event didn't happen.

You can't simply assume the Red Wedding didn't happen and then ask 'what would happen otherwise'. The Red Wedding had roots that historically date back months, if not (a) year(s?). There are subtle clues that Roose Bolton was already trying to jade loyal northerners warriors long before that, and we are left in the shadow on whether or not he was already in touch with Tywin or this was a way to 'hint' an availability to discuss a 'secret alliance'. These actions can't be simply removed as well, because then all the other parties would have done something completely different and maybe would have ended up - later on - in more or way less favourable conditions. How can we say that? Who's to say that Tywyin wouldn't have dared trying a different approach on the field, and missed the opportunity to fight back Stannis - if he didn't have the reassurance of Bolton's/Frey possible alliance? We don't know when it all started for them, as much as we can speculate. And how many - and how long back - historical changes are needed to accommodate a Roose Bolton personality that is 'loyal' to Robb Stark and truly fighting for his cause? Maybe one has to go back to the begin of times to do that. And who assures us that those changes wouldn't end up with a totally different scenario to begin with? Choice's effects propagate like an avalanche through time.

Therefore, my conclusion, is that Robb Stark cause was doomed from the very beginning. Of the universe.

[the conquering bastard 25]

The andals were the first, a race of tall, fair haired warriors who came with steel and ire and the seen pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end of the six southeron kingdoms fell before them. Only here, where the kings of the north threw them back every army that tried to cross the neck, did the rule of the first man endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the seven over the old gods. (Maester Ludwin, Bran Chpt, AGOT pg 734, 4 paragraph oh and its the paperback version)

Sounds like a religious war too me! Yet what do I know nothing apparently, I can't even quote a source right. Just wild speculation without a grain of truth or thought behind it.

You know, common practice is citing your sources, if you want to be taken seriously.

How's that for a source, unless the book is wrong as well. I don't see you sighting sources for some of the things you type, but since sources is what you want sources are what your going to have. Is this good enough?

The coordinated campaign against the First Men Kingdoms. Looks more like a gradual migration to me.

By the way, the wiki is wrong: "Six southron kingdoms fall" while there a lot more kingdoms?

So I guess me, the True History, Ludwin , Wiki and the author are all wrong, Silly me, your right.

[Talleyrand]

I guess it sorta is. But if he had trapped Tywin in the west then Stannis would have taken Kingslanding and Tywin would be surrounded by Robb and Edmure's armies and probably would have been captured or his army smashed.

I'm not taken by this argument that without Tywin KL falls. The Tyrells were already there, they marched all the way there from Bitterbridge its not like they're not going to go for it. Shit they're even in a better position if they save the city by themselves rather than with Tywin.

Also surrounding and smashing an enemy seems like a long shot when said enemy outnumbers you 4-1, is on his home turf and has good outriders under Marbrand (so Robb can't pull the same trick he did on Jaime) nor is he fucking idiot like Stafford

[Lord Reaver]

The andals were the first, a race of tall, fair haired warriors who came with steel and ire and the seen pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end of the six southeron kingdoms fell before them. Only here, where the kings of the north threw them back every army that tried to cross the neck, did the rule of the first man endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the seven over the old gods. (Maester Ludwin, Bran Chpt, AGOT pg 734, 4 paragraph oh and its the paperback version)

This says nothing about the Andals all being united and attacking as one. To the contrary, the fact it says attacks indicates it was by different sources.

I don't see you sighting sources for some of the things you type, but since sources is what you want sources are what your going to have. Is this good enough?

I also haven't made a post that was pretty much nothing but something taken from somewhere else. And no, it's not good enough, since I still don't know from where all that stuff in your previous post came from.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So I guess me, the True History, Ludwin , Wiki and the author are all wrong, Silly me, your right.

GRRM loves the unreliable narrator. In that instance, Maester Luwin shortens the history and links them to the nomenclatura of the Seven Kingdoms.

But let's name a couple kingdoms in the South of the time:

Mudd

Blackwood

Bracken

Iron Islands

Hightower

Gardener

Lannister

Already more than six, no?

[the conquering bastard 25]

what different source are you talking about?

They came through the Fingers and worked their way through the Vale. So after they have the Vale then what? They just split and..... How does that help their cause?

I've asked you for your source material that makes you so sure that they split still waiting for that little tidbit of info? Where does it say that they a)weren't on a religious campaign? b)they split their forces and attacked Westeros independently c) that it was different regions or different parts of the 7 attacking the North

The Wiki and the Book say that the Andals came over from the Fingers. Like the first men, they burned the trees and killed the Children. Yet unlike the First men they didn't take the Children they kept their own gods and made the rest of the realm assimilate to their religion, even their way of writing and more even the language as the Wildlings still speak the old tongue. It was a total subjection of the conquered people. Or did I miss something in history class and not learn that's what the conquers normally do with the conquered. Change of religion, language, art,books, music are always the first to go when assimilating a new culture or territory. That is what happened when William the Conquer did in Britain or we wouldn't be speaking and writing in English now.

Or when the Spanish, English, French and so on when they came from Europe and took North and South America. If not we in america would still be speaking Native American and Catholicism, and it's different branches wouldn't be practiced there.

You provide me with the proof that the Andals sacked the kingdoms individually and not as a group, I'll lay down and say this round is too you. Yet as I've laid down my proof even before you called for, and you've yet to do the same seems kind of well.....

[Lord Reaver]

Or when the Spanish, English, French and so on when they came from Europe and took North and South America. If not we in america would still be speaking Native American and Catholicism, and it's different branches wouldn't be practiced there.

If you think the european powers acted in unison during the conquest of the americas, you need to read up on quite a bit of history.

You provide me with the proof that the Andals sacked the kingdoms individually and not as a group, I'll lay down and say this round is too you. Yet as I've laid down my proof even before you called for, and you've yet to do the same seems kind of well.....

I can simply use the exact same sorces you've presented, since they by no means support your conclusion unequivocally. You simply draw the desired conclusion from them, to fit your already formed conclusion.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You might mistake Anglo-Saxons and Normans. English is predominantly of german origin...

[the conquering bastard 25]

GRRM loves the unreliable narrator. In that instance, Maester Luwin shortens the history and links them to the nomenclatura of the Seven Kingdoms.

But let's name a couple kingdoms in the South of the time:

Mudd

Blackwood

Bracken

Iron Islands

Hightower

Gardener

Lannister

Already more than six, no?

So the statement is completely wrong or it could be taken that Mudd, Blackwood, Bracken belonged to a larger region or kingdom(The Riverlands even if they didn't call themselves that it's a region that can sum up all of those lesser kingdoms into one whole, as they did become apart of the same territory after the Andals and then later with Aegon coming.)

Gardener is one total region that consitutes the Reach, same as the Lannisters or the West, so if you count Bracken, Blackwood and Mudd as petty kingdoms or as one total region it's still 3 regions, with Stormlands, Vale and Dorne making up the other 3. Also the Iron Isles were apart of the Trident region. They ruled from the Western coast of Westeros. So if you are incoparating the Trident and it's petty kingdoms into one single kingdom one could count the Isles as apart of that kingdom as well as they are tied together. Their rule over the Trident was only broken because of Aegon and his dragons. So it's still 6

[the conquering bastard 25]

If you think the european powers acted in unison during the conquest of the americas, you need to read up on quite a bit of history.

I can simply use the exact same sorces you've presented, since they by no means support your conclusion unequivocally. You simply draw the desired conclusion from them, to fit your already formed conclusion.

Did the words they worked together come out of my damn mouth? Hell no! For one I'm American and I know my countries history. Once again you have missed the dang on point. My point was that when these various countries came to America they subjected the people and changed shit around, their religion being one of them. How bout you actually read my post instead of putting words in my mouth because I sure as hell didn't say that the European countries acted together. How does the old quote go about the old European powers? IF they could stop squabbling long enough among themselves they could conquer Asia. The European powers very rare if ever actually worked together and I'm familiar with my history in both Europe and America to know that. So please don't talk to me like I'm stupid.

I'm asking for your textual proof that the Andals didn't work together to master the realm. Yeah but my conclusion actually makes some semblance of military and political sense and religious sense if your tying to spread your faith. You on the other hand are saying that they came to the Vale and then what...... Make more sense to work together to extract the First men and Children or go out separate ways and hope for the best.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

The coordinated campaign against the First Men Kingdoms. Looks more like a gradual migration to me.

By the way, the wiki is wrong: "Six southron kingdoms fall" while there a lot more kingdoms?

New theories suggest that england wasn't conquered ether by the celts 3000 years ago or anglo-saxons 1500 years ago but was a cultural invasion. Effectively in chaos most the ordinary people including aristocracy decided to take up culture and identity of the new people, it was within a century since hengest and horsa that a real ethnic divide was created. There's even a suggesting that the founder of the house of Wessex may have been a Celt.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

So the statement is completely wrong or it could be taken that Mudd, Blackwood, Bracken belonged to a larger region or kingdom(The Riverlands even if they didn't call themselves that it's a region that can sum up all of those lesser kingdoms into one whole, as they did become apart of the same territory after the Andals and then later with Aegon coming.)

Gardener is one total region that consitutes the Reach, same as the Lannisters or the West, so if you count Bracken, Blackwood and Mudd as petty kingdoms or as one total region it's still 3 regions, with Stormlands, Vale and Dorne making up the other 3. Also the Iron Isles were apart of the Trident region. They ruled from the Western coast of Westeros. So if you are incoparating the Trident and it's petty kingdoms into one single kingdom one could count the Isles as apart of that kingdom as well as they are tied together. Their rule over the Trident was only broken because of Aegon and his dragons. So it's still 6

House Dayne

House durrandon

Houses of crackclaw point

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yeah, sure, creative math.

By the way, the Ironborn conquered the Riverlands millennia after the Andal invasion. The Gardeners went about a bit more quickly, but they did not yet rule the Hightowers. The Westerlings may have been independent kings as well. House Dayne, the Durrandons,... we know that the First Men of the time numbered their kingdoms in the hundreds. In the North as well, by the way.

New theories suggest that england wasn't conquered ether by the celts 3000 years ago or anglo-saxons 1500 years ago but was a cultural invasion. Effectively in chaos most the ordinary people including aristocracy decided to take up culture and identity of the new people, it was within a century since hengest and horsa that a real ethnic divide was created. There's even a suggesting that the founder of the house of Wessex may have been a Celt.

Spot on. Just like "the Andal Invasion".