Tywin the Commander

[The Fallen]

Huh? He attacked their ally, causing Lord Reyne to rush to battle without his full strength. How else would you interpret "the Red lion realized he was too late", if not responding to Tywin?

This can be viewed completely different. For instance, Tywin undertakes this operation without the knowledge and consent of Tytos. Hence why he couldn't rustle up more men. It also forces him to rush to attack the Tarbecks.

The Red Lion responding is a no-brainer. But it could be argued that Tywin stumbled into that opportunity as a result of his rush job as opposed to designing it.

That's why I feel that there's a lot of assumptions being made. It could be that Tywin's thinking was exactly the way you presume it is. But without more information I'm not willing to make that leap.

[Boarsbane]

Yes to all this.Also, he convinced his father's bannermen to follow him against an enemy that was stealing land from many of them, which can't be all that hard.

Tywin's MO is always to beat his enemies with sheer numbers or when it's impossible, use unspeakable treachery. All clearly shows a commander that never had to fight a batle in inferior numbers and has never shown to be particularly creative or brave. He's not terrible, like Stafford, but not particularly brilliant either.

Except he was a 20 year old who would be defying his own father who was the actual Lord of Casterly Rock, and failure would almost ensure the Reynes and Tarbecks come after them next. But anything to downplay Tywin's accomplishments...

Why would he want to fight a battle with inferior numbers? Is fighting battles with inferior numbers a sign of a good strategist? No it is not, the fact that he has never fought a battle with inferior numbers shows how great a strategist he is. Also, his way of dealing with the siege of Castamere is one of the most creative ways to deal with a siege we have seen.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Tywin's MO is always to beat his enemies with sheer numbers or when it's impossible, use unspeakable treachery. All clearly shows a commander that never had to fight a batle in inferior numbers and has never shown to be particularly creative or brave. He's not terrible, like Stafford, but not particularly brilliant either.

What you call "unspeakable treachery" I call resourcefulness, especially in this case. Flooding Castamere was brilliant

As for never fighting against superior numbers, that is a point in his favor. Sun Tzu 101: the best commanders avoid engagements they aren't likely to win. It may not be glorious, but it's smart. The Reynes and Tarbecks combined would probably have outnumbered Tywin's 3500 men, but he ensured that they never combined

EDIT: Boarsbane beat me to it

[Bryanfury]

Arguably, yes he did.

"Tywin the commander" - commanded himself into defeat and politicized himself into victory

Arguably you're biased

[Ramsay Gimp]

"Tywin the commander" - commanded himself into defeat and politicized himself into victory

Arguably you're biased

Again, I'd like to focus on the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion for now rather than the WO5K. But Tywin did score several victories in that that war as well, they just weren't as dramatic as Robb's. Smashing the Tullys at the beginning of the conflict and then baiting the Riverlords back to their keeps after the Starks showed up are two examples.

[Bryanfury]

Again, I'd like to focus on the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion for now rather than the WO5K. But Tywin did score several victories in that that war as well, they just weren't as dramatic as Robb's. Smashing the Tullys at the beginning of the conflict and then baiting the Riverlords back to their keeps after the Starks showed up are two examples.

Jaime smashed Edmure, not Tywin.

Reyne-Tarbeck what's to discuss? He fought two battles where he had greater numbers and then murdered two garrisons, one by drowning them. Discussion done?

[GallowsKnight]

Castamere sounds like a crap castle. I mean what Tywin did with the river was clever. But no one else in thousands of years said "Hey why don't just brick up everyone in the castle?"

There's a reason why castle are big, so you can use archers, siege weapons and throw stones.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Jaime smashed Edmure, not Tywin.

Tywin was Commander-in-Chief, and the plan was obviously his. The reason Jaime had such an easy time against Edmure is because Edmure had scattered his forces, because of Tywin

Reyne-Tarbeck what's to discuss? He fought two battles where he had greater numbers and then murdered two garrisons, one by drowning them. Discussion done?

No, I would hope the discussion is not done, because there are a dozen important details you leave out. You can disparage anyone's achievements like that, and all it does is shut down intelligent discussion.

"Robb Stark won two battles where he had surprise and then got murdered at a wedding. Discussion Done?"

"Ulysses S. Grant burned the South and then won some battles with greater numbers/supplies. Discussion Done?"

"Thomas Jefferson wrote some good stuff and then banged his slaves. Discussion Done?"

[Ramsay Gimp]

Castamere sounds like a crap castle. I mean what Tywin did with the river was clever. But no one else in thousands of years said "Hey why don't just brick up everyone in the castle?"

There's a reason why castle are big, so you can use archers, siege weapons and throw stones.

Castamere sounds like it would have been a bitch to storm (the "two knights could hold off thousands" comment) but I agree that it's underground-ness was a major weakness. Still, Tywin deserves credit for taking advantage of that weakness in a way no one else had thought of.

[Bryanfury]

Tywin was Commander-in-Chief, and the plan was obviously his. The reason Jaime had such an easy time against Edmure is because Edmure had scattered his forces, because of Tywin

No, I would hope the discussion is not done, because there are a dozen important details you leave out.

Important details like...? What, that Tywin marched without permission? That he moved fast? There really isn't much to work with.

[corbon]

You know what bothers me.

Robb never loses a battle when he's in command and when his subcommanders lose, Robb is still considered undefeated.

Tywin never actually loses a battle when HE's in command and when Stafford Lannister, Gregor Clegane or somebody else fucks up, Tywin lost.

Talk about a double standard.

You are confusing strategy and tactics.

Tywin was 'sensible' with his strategy and therefore predictable. Robb cleaned his clocks strategically, forcing him out of a dominating strategic position and causing him to effectively give up KL and chase Robb's tail into the Westlands. But Tywin luckily failed even at that, and Littlefinger provided him with unexpected allies (the Tyrells) to save KL with.

Thats why Robb is considered a significantly better commander. He did more, with less, from a significantly worse position and Tywin danced to his tune, even though Tywin dismissed him initially.

Once it gets to the battlefield, Tywin again displays cautious solidity - doing everything correctly (scouts, reserves, protected camp, etc etc etc), not missing anything out, but neither showing any imagination, nor the ability to fully develop a victory (with the absence of the Stark Horse, the battle against Bolton should have been a decisive rout, but it seems Bolton was able to withdraw in good order with indecisive losses even though he had no horse and the northern foot had marched all night - I rate that a poor performance from Tywin, or, maybe even and, a brilliant one from Bolton).

The new reported data about the Reynes and Castameres suggests that in his youth he took more risks and was more creative. Things he did not display in the Wot5K.

[Ramsay Gimp]

You are confusing strategy and tactics.

Tywin was 'sensible' with his strategy and therefore predictable. Robb cleaned his clocks strategically, forcing him out of a dominating strategic position and causing him to effectively give up KL and chase Robb's tail into the Westlands. But Tywin luckily failed even at that, and Littlefinger provided him with unexpected allies (the Tyrells) to save KL with.

Thats why Robb is considered a significantly better commander. He did more, with less, from a significantly worse position and Tywin danced to his tune, even though Tywin dismissed him initially.

-This ignores the fact that Robb never should have been able to get past the Golden Tooth so easily.

-How was Robb's position significantly worse than Tywin's? At the end of AGOT and through most of ACOK Tywin is surrounded by enemies

[Bryanfury]

-This ignores the fact that Robb never should have been able to get past the Golden Tooth so easily.

-How was Robb's position significantly worse than Tywin's? At the end of AGOT and through most of ACOK Tywin is surrounded by enemies

-How does not help Robb's case? Doesn't matter how he got past it, it happened. A scout could just have easily have found that path.

-Robb should never have been able to even relieve Riverrun, and when he did, he couldn't touch Tywin because his position in Harrenhal was too strong. And no, Tywin wasn't surrounded by enemies, to the contrary, his only direct enemy in the field even remotely close to him were Stark forces, with Robb's smaller force in Riverrun and Rooses already defeated forces half way up the Green Fork. Renly, Stannis, and Lysa weren't even pretending to look in his direction.

[TheNinjaDC]

Tywin as a battlefield commander reminds me allot of middle of the road cinematographers I've known. The ones that will set a correct frame, press play, and then sit down in a seat 5 feet away from the camera. They have good camera operation skills, and frame a shot well, but their hands off approach holds them back from greatness.

Tywin is like that on a battlefield. He sets a frame(battle), presses play(gives orders), and then just sits back and passively watches from a safe distance. It's competent, but not great.

This is based on how Tyrion describes his father's commanding style in Winds excepts.

[GallowsKnight]

Castamere sounds like it would have been a bitch to storm (the "two knights could hold off thousands" comment) but I agree that it's underground-ness was a major weakness. Still, Tywin deserves credit for taking advantage of that weakness in a way no one else had thought of.

It sounds like one of those badass in a fantasy castles against orcs, but real life humans would think ways around it very quickly.

Two other thoughts off the top of my head:

Dozens of crossbowmen taking turns to lay down constant barrage on those two defenders.

Barrells of burning pitch rolled down the tunnels.

But I agree Tywin deserves credit for his craftiness. Especially not for buying into it's BS reputation.

[Zoravar Singh]

The blitzkrieg of the Tarbecks was a great idea IMO. He was amongst the best generals of his time, although I can't say for sure that he was THE best. He was also amongst those who realized that there was more to war than battles.

[corbon]

-This ignores the fact that Robb never should have been able to get past the Golden Tooth so easily.

-How was Robb's position significantly worse than Tywin's? At the end of AGOT and through most of ACOK Tywin is surrounded by enemies

Tywin thought he couldn't. Tywin was wrong. Thats a failure of Tywin's part, no matter how "likely" or not it was. A large part of successful strategy is being able to achieve the unexpected.

Twyin starts the war against the northmen with Riverrun invested by Jaime, the Riverlands largely taken, their troops invested or defeated and scatttered, and his main army, larger and stronger than the northmen on its own, sitting between Robb and KL, easily able to reinforce Jaime if needed or cover KL. A third army is gathering and training in the Westlands.

Stannis is stuck in Dragonstone, Renly's forces slowly advancing from the south. Tywin is sensibly positioned so his main army, larger than Robb's covers Robb's and can prevent it marching on KL, can reinforce Jaime or can retire to defend KL from the Tyrells as necessary. Solidly done. Its a good position and sensible strategy. But its not inspired, it gives up the initiative and essentially its lazy. It will beat an enemy who doesn't think, but its too predictable and relies on the enemy doing what is expected. Tywin thought he was secure and Robb was a green boy so it would be easy. Home by christmas sort of thinking. He was wrong, and Robb successful used his own prejudices against him.

Robbs sucks him in by moving the northern foot along the 'expected' axis of advance and letting Tywin see that, so Tywin prepares for a battle there instead of reinforcing Jaime. Robb defeats Jaime in a lightning thrust and relieves Riverrun giving the Riverlands forces freedom and a base to regroup on. It was Tywin's job to stop that, and he failed. He was positioned to do so, but underestimated Robb and saw what he expected to see. To make matter worse he got half the battle he wanted against a much weakened northern force (foot only) and still failed to make it decisive.

So far Robb has done extremely well, Tywin a mixed bag. Sensible, methodical, but predictable and prejudiced and those things have been used against him. In addition, he hasn't performed on the battlefield - he won the Battle of the Green Fork, but he wasn;t able to make it decisive.

Then he had a problem. He's still covering KL from the northerns, but the Tyrells are still slowly advancing. He's also now got Robb between him and his base in the Westlands. But no matter, there is another army building in the westlands and when its ready he can pincer Robb and defeat him. He's only a boy after all, even if he did get lucky against that idiot Jaime.

But Robb outmanouvers him again, breaking his expectations, shattering the westlands army and putting real pressure Twyins base - taking his goldmines, lots of stock and land, just not quite strong enough yet to take Lannisport or CR. But its enough to force Tywin to choose between KL and the Westlands. He chose the Westlands but was defeated at the fords by Edmure with heavy loss and forced to withdraw.

Luckily Littlefinger brought the Tyrells over to his side after Renly died, so instead of fighting their overwhelming numbers with his defeated army, he joined up with them to hit Stannis from behind.

So, twice, strategically he thought he was secure only to find himself outmanouvered by Robb and in trouble.

He commanded two battles, won one against a weak force but failed to make it decisive, and lost the other, to Edmure Tully.

Politics, first of Littlefinger then of Robb Stark, saved his bacon.

Thats the 'vaunted' Lord Tywin Lannister in action, in the Wot5K at least.

If it wasn't for Littlefinger, which Tywin had nothing to do with, he'd have lost both bases and all his armies. As it was the northmen had the Westlands on the ropes for a while but lost impetus with Robb's wound and marriage and then lost the campaign through political mistakes.

[Zoravar Singh]

Tywin thought he couldn't. Tywin was wrong. Thats a failure of Tywin's part, no matter how "likely" or not it was. A large part of successful strategy is being able to achieve the unexpected.

Twyin starts the war against the northmen with Riverrun invested by Jaime, the Riverlands largely taken, their troops invested or defeated and scatttered, and his main army, larger and stronger than the northmen on its own, sitting between Robb and KL, easily able to reinforce Jaime if needed or cover KL. A third army is gathering and training in the Westlands.

Stannis is stuck in Dragonstone, Renly's forces slowly advancing from the south. Tywin is sensibly positioned so his main army, larger than Robb's covers Robb's and can prevent it marching on KL, can reinforce Jaime or can retire to defend KL from the Tyrells as necessary. Solidly done. Its a good position and sensible strategy. But its not inspired, it gives up the initiative and essentially its lazy. It will beat an enemy who doesn't think, but its too predictable and relies on the enemy doing what is expected. Tywin thought he was secure and Robb was a green boy so it would be easy. Home by christmas sort of thinking. He was wrong, and Robb successful used his own prejudices against him.

Robbs sucks him in by moving the northern foot along the 'expected' axis of advance and letting Tywin see that, so Tywin prepares for a battle there instead of reinforcing Jaime. Robb defeats Jaime in a lightning thrust and relieves Riverrun giving the Riverlands forces freedom and a base to regroup on. It was Tywin's job to stop that, and he failed. He was positioned to do so, but underestimated Robb and saw what he expected to see. To make matter worse he got half the battle he wanted against a much weakened northern force (foot only) and still failed to make it decisive.

So far Robb has done extremely well, Tywin a mixed bag. Sensible, methodical, but predictable and prejudiced and those things have been used against him. In addition, he hasn't performed on the battlefield - he won the Battle of the Green Fork, but he wasn;t able to make it decisive.

Then he had a problem. He's still covering KL from the northerns, but the Tyrells are still slowly advancing. He's also now got Robb between him and his base in the Westlands. But no matter, there is another army building in the westlands and when its ready he can pincer Robb and defeat him. He's only a boy after all, even if he did get lucky against that idiot Jaime.

But Robb outmanouvers him again, breaking his expectations, shattering the westlands army and putting real pressure Twyins base - taking his goldmines, lots of stock and land, just not quite strong enough yet to take Lannisport or CR. But its enough to force Tywin to choose between KL and the Westlands. He chose the Westlands but was defeated at the fords by Edmure with heavy loss and forced to withdraw.

Luckily Littlefinger brought the Tyrells over to his side after Renly died, so instead of fighting their overwhelming numbers with his defeated army, he joined up with them to hit Stannis from behind.

So, twice, strategically he thought he was secure only to find himself outmanouvered by Robb and in trouble.

He commanded two battles, won one against a weak force but failed to make it decisive, and lost the other, to Edmure Tully.

Politics, first of Littlefinger then of Robb Stark, saved his bacon.

Thats the 'vaunted' Lord Tywin Lannister in action, in the Wot5K at least.

If it wasn't for Littlefinger, which Tywin had nothing to do with, he'd have lost both bases and all his armies. As it was the northmen had the Westlands on the ropes for a while but lost impetus with Robb's wound and marriage and then lost the campaign through political mistakes.

:agree: , Robb was undoubtedly better when it came to battle, and was undoubtedly a better battlefield commander . It was rather sad that he never realized that there was more to war than battles..

[Lee-Sensei]

I have to admit i underestimated tywin, but that was impressive. I also think that theres a double standard concernjng robb and tywin.

[corbon]

I also think that theres a double standard concernjng robb and tywin.

Why?

(I just explained in some detail why thats not so. Its also clear that Young Tywin was a somewhat different beast from the Tywin commanding in the Wot5K).