Religion IV: Deus vult!

[Stannisaurus2]

Personally, I would only perceive the above in the context of D&D. In fictional religions/mythologies, yeah, that's how it works.

Bu in real life, a death cult is - unsurprisingly - a cult that revolves around death. Say, the cult of Persephone, or Orpheus, or Osiris. They are typically quite benign, and they involve a way of "defeating" death - be that resurrection, or life after death, or reincarnation.

You can't call the entire Greek mythology a "death cult", though, because it's so much more. Even the Egyptians, who seemed more obsessed with death than any culture they ever bumped into, cannot be summarily categorized as such.

I believe the same applies to Christianity. Sure, the death/resurrection thingy is very important, but it doesn't dominate everything. Not any more at least. (Early Christians were much more inclined to believe that the end is nigh. Like, any time now, Christ will come back, and we'll live to see it. They chilled significantly after a couple of centuries.)

The context I am using is everyday communication. If someone came up to me and said "You heard about Mike? He joined a death cult" or "Did you know Persephone had a death cult" then I would imagine something like the stuff I mentioned earlier, and I am sure most people would imagine something similar. That's the real life context, the one people use today.

Now if Christianity can fit into a "death cult" description based on a historical/mythological classification of ancient cults who tried to defeat death, or when it is presented as a specialized term then that's fine by me I have no problem with that. But that's not how it was used in this thread.

[Weeping Sore]

I think Christianity is more of a guilt cult. As in, what are you complaining about in your life, and how dare you imagine you deserve pleasure/happiness when you know what Christ went through on your behalf?

Are there any other religions that relentlessly depict their god being tortured to death?

[sologdin]

aren't astrotheological gods always dying and being reborn? anyway: osiris (dismembered), dionysus (cannibalized), tammuz (lover's demons got him), quetzalcoatl (immolation), &c.

[Weeping Sore]

aren't astrotheological gods always dying and being reborn? anyway: osiris (dismembered), dionysus (cannibalized), tammuz (lover's demons got him), quetzalcoatl (immolation), &c.

Sure, but if you were to have an idol of one of these gods (I've only ever seen an Osiris, to be fair) it's probably not a depiction of their death. Christianity has the crucifix and the (popular among Catholics) pietà. The only comparable depiction I can think of is the disembowelment of Prometheus (a rebellious Titan, not really a central deity in the Greek pantheon). I wonder if it made Greeks feel guilty for using fire...

[sologdin]

good point. are there any famous images out there of the search for osiris' missing cock?

[Sci-2]

The Summer Day (Mary Oliver)

Who made the world?

Who made the swan, and the black bear?

Who made the grasshopper?

This grasshopper, I mean-the one who the one who has flung herself out of the grass, the one who is eating sugar out of my hand,

who is moving her jaws back and forth instead of up and down -

who is gazing around with her enormous and complicated eyes.

Now she lifts her pale forearms and thoroughly washes her face.

Now she snaps her wings open, and floats away.

I don't know exactly what a prayer is.

I do know how to pay attention, how to fall down

into the grass, how to kneel down in the grass,

how to be idle and blessed, how to stroll through the fields,

which is what I have been doing all day.

Tell me, what else should I have done?

Doesn't everything die at last, and too soon?

Tell me, what is it you plan to do

with your one wild and precious life?

[TerraPrime]

good point. are there any famous images out there of the search for osiris' missing cock?

I'm sure Craig's List will have it under "discreet mwm seeks bbc for fun" ;p

[Serious Callers Only]

There is actually a ancient Horus-Set slash-fic/satire.

I think Christianity is more of a guilt cult. As in, what are you complaining about in your life, and how dare you imagine you deserve pleasure/happiness when you know what Christ went through on your behalf?

Are there any other religions that relentlessly depict their god being tortured to death?

Norse. Although Odin self-inflicted it and he's the god of wisdom, war, magic and death soooo.

[Born Yesterday]

aren't astrotheological gods always dying and being reborn? anyway: osiris (dismembered), dionysus (cannibalized), tammuz (lover's demons got him), quetzalcoatl (immolation), &c.

It's more often about vegetation (the cycle of the seasons, agriculture, harvest etc) than about celestial bodies (they rise in the sky, then they set, then they rise again). But sure, it's very common. Attis also fits the bill, and Persephone "died" symbolically every time she descended to Hades for half a year.

Sure, but if you were to have an idol of one of these gods (I've only ever seen an Osiris, to be fair) it's probably not a depiction of their death. Christianity has the crucifix and the (popular among Catholics) pietà.

Well, yeah, but the dismemberment and resurrection of Osiris wasn't directly linked to the salvation of humans. These deities weren't scapegoats. Christ was exactly that.

This may sound like the opposite of what Ser Scot says here:

He has said in the past that God's sacrifice, in Orthodox theology, was deigning to become fully human by being Christ. That the manner of Christ's death wasn't relevant to what would happen after he died. It is in becoming Human that allowed God to take on the sins of humanity and that it was Christ's inevitable ressurection that gives us the ability to be forgiven for our sins.

But I was raised Orthodox, too, and, from what I know, the idea that Christ was crucified for our sins is pretty much engrained. What makes it work is the punitive nature of his death, the unjust killing. Christ was innocent, he was not punished for HIS sins because he didn't have any, but his punishment could and did absolve everyone else's sins.

The scapegoat, someone who takes other people's guilt so that his punishment (quite unfairly!) absolves them, is a very persistent myth. But in polytheism and Judaism, it's usually a custom that involves living outcasts or animals being punished - thrown out at best, killed at worst. I think Christianity was unique in making their own god the scapegoat and sacrifice.

This is a very powerful narrative (if unreasonable from a modern legal point of view :) ), and as far as I know, Orthodox theology doesn't shun it at all. It does pay a lot of attention to Christ becoming fully human. But that can be more mundanely explained by the war with early "heresies", which often claimed that Jesus was only human, or only god.

[Weeping Sore]

Norse. Although Odin self-inflicted it and he's the god of wisdom, war, magic and death soooo.

Yeah Odin gouging out his eye and hanging himself were ultimately to make himself more of a bad-ass - not sacrificing himself for the Midgardians.

[Sci-2]

Yeah Odin gouging out his eye and hanging himself were ultimately to make himself more of a bad-ass - not sacrificing himself for the Midgardians.

I don't know if "bad-ass" is the right term for engaging in ritual sacrifice to better guide your subjects?

[Weeping Sore]

I don't know if "bad-ass" is the right term for engaging in ritual sacrifice to better guide your subjects?

Maybe I'm thinking of Timmett son of Timmett.

[Sci-2]

Maybe I'm thinking of Timmett son of Timmett.

I guess it'd depend on what it meant to drink from Mimir's Well o' Wisdom, and exactly what kind of magic Odin learned from hanging himself.

IIRC he was seen as a chthonic/occult deity associated with death, and perhaps somewhat frightening?

[sologdin]

BY--

I equate astrotheological with agricultural. pastoralists and hunter-gatherers have different ideas. agriculturalists by contrast need an astrological calendar, &c.

[Sci-2]

Westboro Baptist Church Says It Will Go to Iraq to Protest ISIS

In a move certainly worthy of its status as the fringiest of the far-right fringe hate groups, the Westboro Baptist Church congregation says it’s going to accept an offer by a popular Australian comedian to fly members to Iraq to protest the beheading of Christians by the Islamic terror group ISIS, Addicting Info reports.

After learning that members of the antigay church planned to protest the funeral of Robin Williams, comedian Adam Hills challenged them to really live their stated values and offered them a proposition on his television show, The Last Leg.

“If you really believe in standing up to those threatening the Christian way of life, Westboro Baptist Church, how about putting your money where your mouth is, taking a direct flight to Iraq,” he said this week, also offering to pay for first-class airfare.

Church members took Hills’s offer seriously and announced their acceptance on Twitter...

[Serious Callers Only]

Yeah Odin gouging out his eye and hanging himself were ultimately to make himself more of a bad-ass - not sacrificing himself for the Midgardians.

I've always had the feeling, not reading from primary sources, that this whole thing was about avoiding Ragnarök for a long as possible, so it's egoistic ofc (personal power, for the gods, not people). The advantage of being polytheistic is never having to say you're sorry, all your narratives can be about godly drama and bullying the irrelevant mortals

[Born Yesterday]

BY--

I equate astrotheological with agricultural. pastoralists and hunter-gatherers have different ideas. agriculturalists by contrast need an astrological calendar, &c.

I've heard people make that connection before, and with great conviction, but the evidence doesn't add up, IMO. From the examples so far:

• Dionysus: medium link with vegetation (god of wine, has a fertility aspect, especially grape harvest), zero link with stars
• Persephone: strong link with vegetation (fertility goddess, daughter of Demeter, represents the cycle of the seasons), zero link with stars
• Attis: strong link with vegetation (god of vegetation), zero link with stars
• Tammuz: strong link with vegetation (god of vegetation), weak link with stars (nothing star-related in the myth, but celebrated at summer solstice)
• Osiris: medium link with vegetation (god of the underworld, giver of life including vegetation), medium link with stars (sun god elements, connection with Ra, associated with Orion and Sirius)
• Quetzalcoatl: weak link with vegetation (possibly has a fertility aspect), medium link with stars (related to the planet Venus and dawn, among other things)

Note that Mesoamerican mythology is not my strong point, so that last part was quickly pilfered from wikipedia. If I blundered, my apologies, and corrections are welcome.

In any case, it seems to me that the pattern strongly favors vegetation. It may sound reasonable to associate stars with agriculture by default, and assume that fertility deities who died and were reborn must have had some connection to the sky. But they don't, not necessarily.

Actually, the only strong contender is Osiris, but Egypt is a unique case. It was completely dependent on the Nile and its annual floods, so vegetation and fertility were associated with these floods, and not the seasons in general. And by sheer coincidence, the floods would come each year around the time that Sirius, the brightest star, rose in the summer sky. So for the Egyptians, Sirius rising was a big fucking deal. It marked the beginning of the flood season, and it was celebrated as New Year's Day in honor of Osiris, who gives us life and vegetation.

And that's how a star was linked with agriculture (and both of them with a deity). Everywhere else, Sirius was a just a pretty star, marking nothing in particular. I think it's a huge mistake to extrapolate anything from Egypt.

[Sci-2]

DAYUM. Not everyday you see Solo getting schooled like that. ;-)

=-=-=

Feser on Classical Theism vs "Intuitive" Theology

Now these are, of course, reasons of the sort that have led philosophical theologians, including Christian philosophical theologians, to deny also that God can be corporeal -- a denial Olson endorses. Olson and other critics of classical theism thus owe us an explanation of why such considerations should not lead us to embrace the rest of the classical theist package, and of how their alternative “theistic personalist” position can avoid making of God a creature in just the way attributing corporeality to him would.

An appeal to what is “intuitive” does not suffice (especially not if backed with fallacious arguments). If the “intuitions” are sound, then it should be possible rationally to justify them with sound arguments -- in which case the intuitions fall away as unneeded. And if there are no good arguments in defense of the intuitions, while there are good (and certainly unanswered) arguments against them, then that is a reason to reject the intuitions rather than the classical theistic claims with which they conflict.

I think Feser's wrong about this, largely because a metaphysical lynchpin is rather distant from Yaweh. Not to mention ascribing "higher than human" intellect to Yaweh is a very questionable move.

Of course, intuitive Biblical theology seems to be an unclear road as well, leading to contradictory conclusions about Yaweh being a monster, an imperfect Demiurge, a plurality of deities, and so on.

(There's also Feser's arguments against homosexuality & reincarnation, which are both embarrassments. But then all teleological arguments against homosexuality are.)

[sologdin]

dude, agriculture is the connection to stars. calendars, &c.

[Sci-2]

The Intensified Trajectory of Consciousness in Odysseus’ Vision in Hades

"Along with familiarizing us with the cosmovision of the Amazonian peoples, our fieldwork also introduced us into the practice of shamanic journeying, which among Amazonian peoples, who live in an environment of extraordinary biodiversity, is often conducted in ceremonies utilizing ayahuasca, a psychoactive plant medicine whose name translates from Quechua as “vine of the spirits” or “vine of the dead.”

There we were also struck by certain parallels between Odysseus’ visionary descent into Hades and ethnographies of traditional shamanic practices among indigenous peoples worldwide, especially when supplemented by cognitive archeologist David Lewis-Williams’ theory of the intensified trajectory of consciousness.

These parallels are suggestive of a deeper morphological relationship between Homer’s narrative and the traditions of vision quest among the ancient, indigenous Mediterranean peoples (whose material culture is preserved in the Paleolithic cave sanctuaries), than is generally recognized. By viewing, as our main objective, just one episode in the Odyssey, the hero’s visionary journey in Hades,from an ethnographic perspective, this essay hopes to open up more inquiry into the indigenous, and shamanic, background of the epic poem."