Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 You're over thinking this, which is my main problem with religion (being a giant waste of time to talk about it). Say god(s) is/are real. Either: There is a deity or deities that created the known universe and everything that has ever happened has been planned out, making them total assholes, or There is a deity or deities that created the known universe and everything that happens happens by chance, making them irrelevant. Either way, neither will effect our lives so it's pointless to be emotionally invested in the subject. Plus, the utter hubris of claiming we can name them and identify their actions and intentions has always stunned me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Surely it's obvious that there are more options than the two you described? Not that you're obligated to delve into the philosophical/anthropological aspects of religion, but I'd say you're underthinking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Sci,Why acknowledge subtlety and nuance when you can present a false dichotomy?:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Sci,Why acknowledge subtlety and nuance when you can present a false dichotomy? :P Yeah, but it isn't. The most important question you have to ask yourself once you've accepted that there is a deity (or deities) is, "Does everything happen by design (hence our fates are predestined) or does everything happen by chance (random chaos)?" If it is the former, then our deity (or deities) are cruel and unjust, so they do not merit our blind devotion. If it is the latter, then it is implied that this deity (or these deities) have little to no control over the events of our lives and thus don't really matter. But I get what you're saying. My point here is that if you break down and simplify religion to it's core, you see how much of a waste of time it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 QALC,That is certianly your position on religion. It really does depend upon what you believe a deity is and is not capable of.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Plus, the utter hubris of claiming we can name them and identify their actions and intentions has always stunned me. I've always wondered how theists deal with the problem of there being so many different beliefs, all with supremely confident and completely mutually exclusive claims about how the world works. Thousands and thousands throughout history, all utterly convinced that there is a obviously self-evident truth to the nature of the world and yet none can agree on what that truth is. If you look at the history of modern science, over time people come to agree. Not always, and usually not at first. But as time passes and the evidence mounts a general consensus almost always emerges. New questions tend to emerge from these discoveries, with new disagreements, but over time the answers to those questions tend to become settled as well, and so the process continues. If there were a deity or deities with an effect upon the world, then how come over time we're no closer to zeroing in on their nature than the first hunter-gatherers who bowed down to a painted ox-skull (grant me some poetic license here, I'm not an anthropologist)? Surely as different people with different ideas about god/s met and interacted and communicated we'd start to eliminate possibilities and home-in on a more complete and clearly demonstrable picture? And the evidence for such would be undeniable to the point that a consensus would eventually emerge? If there are deities, then they seem remarkably uniniterested in demonstrating their existence to us. Why bother to worship something that (assuming it/they exist) either doesn't care about us or actively hides from us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Liffguard,I believe God exists and that my faith is our attempt to understand a being so far beyond us it is physically impossible for us to understand. Therefore, I would never claim my belief to be absolute truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Liffguard,I believe God exists and that my faith is our attempt to understand a being so far beyond us it is physically impossible for us to understand. Therefore, I would never claim my belief to be absolute truth. With respect, why attempt to understand something that you believe to be in principle impossible to understand? If the existence of a deity is to have any impact on your life (beyond whatever meaning you choose to personally ascribe) then surely it must be at least partially comprehensible? In addition, whilst I'm not accusing you of this personally, lots of people like to use the "god is beyond our comprehension" argument to shut down discussion. Such people are often fond of immediately turning around and claiming that they personally know what god wants and that this should dictate public policy. Really, if god isn't fond of two dudes banging then how ineffable and incomprehensible can he really be? Sounds a lot like my (reluctant) mate Mike and he's comprehensible as fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Liffguard,Will we ever completely understand all aspects of the Universe? I doubt it. Does that fact make science's effort to do so without worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Liffguard,Will we ever completely understand all aspects of the Universe? I doubt it. Does that fact make science's effort to do so without worth? Just becuase we won't comperhend something doesen't make it incomprenhensible: I might never learn how exactly a computer works, but that doesen't mean there aren't people who can do so. Saying that God is unknown is different from saying he is unknowable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I've always wondered how theists deal with the problem of there being so many different beliefs, all with supremely confident and completely mutually exclusive claims about how the world works. Thousands and thousands throughout history, all utterly convinced that there is a obviously self-evident truth to the nature of the world and yet none can agree on what that truth is. If you look at the history of modern science, over time people come to agree. Not always, and usually not at first. But as time passes and the evidence mounts a general consensus almost always emerges. New questions tend to emerge from these discoveries, with new disagreements, but over time the answers to those questions tend to become settled as well, and so the process continues. If there were a deity or deities with an effect upon the world, then how come over time we're no closer to zeroing in on their nature than the first hunter-gatherers who bowed down to a painted ox-skull (grant me some poetic license here, I'm not an anthropologist)? Surely as different people with different ideas about god/s met and interacted and communicated we'd start to eliminate possibilities and home-in on a more complete and clearly demonstrable picture? And the evidence for such would be undeniable to the point that a consensus would eventually emerge? If there are deities, then they seem remarkably uniniterested in demonstrating their existence to us. Why bother to worship something that (assuming it/they exist) either doesn't care about us or actively hides from us? Excellent post. Also, we haven't begun to narrow down religions, but are expanding them with even more bizarre versions (that's a shot at Mormons and Scientology, as well as YEC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Furthermore, if anyone came to you today and said they spoke with god or Zeus or whatever deity, would you believe them, or find them stark raving mad? I also feel the need to add this, the single greatest description of modern religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Excellent post. Also, we haven't begun to narrow down religions, but are expanding them with even more bizarre versions (that's a shot at Mormons and Scientology, as well as YEC). I'm not sure that is the case. Many religions have disappeared after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm of mixed opinion on the "God is not comprehensible" assertion. Why worship something that's not comprehensible? Better to establish some philosophical grounding, or even some fine tuning or ID probability arguments, rather than leaving it to total mystery. OTOH, I would accept that there's some aspect of a deity that remains beyond our ken. Though this would, IMO, be an argument for secular law. (Not that Ser Scott was arguing for theocracy, just throwing my own opinion out there.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I'm not sure that is the case. Many religions have disappeared after all. True. Some scholars claim there were over 200 different sects of Christianity before the first council of Nicaea. Many believers of the less-favorable branches were massacred after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Liffguard,Will we ever completely understand all aspects of the Universe? I doubt it. Does that fact make science's effort to do so without worth? You said god was "physically impossible" to understand. Not just something so large and complex that in practice it's unlikely we'll ever develop a complete picture, but something that is in principle unknowable. Your analogy doesn't work. We'll never understand the entire universe, but we can certainly understand parts of it, and make reasoned inferences about other parts. Are you claiming that god is inherently and completely incomprehensible or can we understand different aspects of it? If we can understand different aspects of it, then why can't we compare notes, examine the evidence and come to a more precise and accurate understanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Furthermore, if anyone came to you today and said they spoke with god or Zeus or whatever deity, would you believe them, or find them stark raving mad? I also feel the need to add this, the single greatest description of modern religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE To answer your question, it would depend on what they were saying. As for George Carlin, I like the guy but that's just silly blustering IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 To answer your question, it would depend on what they were saying. As for George Carlin, I like the idea but that's just silly blustering IMO. What? How? Everything he said is 100% relevant. And you would honestly believe some instances of people claiming they spoke with a deity? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 What? How? Everything he said is 100% relevant. And you would honestly believe some instances of people claiming they spoke with a deity? Really? Saying religion is about convincing people there's a man living in the sky has little to do with serious conceptions of God. I personally think most (maybe all) of what religions have to say is false, and certain aspects like Hell are unjustifiable, but I do see there are serious arguments to be made in favor of at least the metaphysical lynchpin God of philosophers. On your second point -> I don't think the options are limited to "believe them" or "think they're stark raving mad". eta: their/they're correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Ayras Lord Commander Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 On your second point -> I don't think the options are limited to "believe them" or "think their stark raving mad". What other options do you see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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