The Riverlands Web

[LongRider]

If folks are interested in some good stuff about the Faceless and Mr. Jacket Cigar, there was a Heresy thread dedicated to them last month, with a great OP by butterbumps!: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116939-heresy-134-the-faceless-men/

Not much on the Riverlands there, but some good thoughts about the philosophy and ethics of the Faceless, and about Jaqen's character and interactions with Arya.

Just want to say that the moment when Arya named Jaqen as her third owed "death" was the clincher for me, when I knew that I was in for an even richer experience following this amazing girl's story, that I'd be following everything she says and does and thinks with bated breath. Seriously, my jaw dropped. Incidentally, I think that was the clincher for Jaqen as well. Sure, he'd been paying attention to her for a while, but then wham! she intuitively gets the way in which even if you're no one you still have to be someone. A man's mind is blown, and a man forks over an iron coin.

Thanks for the link Hrafntýr! I'll have to check that out.

[LongRider]

I just thought of something.

Yoren is no fool. He has travelled…a lot. He always struck me as the guy who has seen at all and never blanches. Nothing ruffles him.

Not sure if this is what you mean. What would Yoren think he recruits? But how funny if Yoren knows or suspect he is an FM? Or if not. Or that he does something that is not normal for those parts? Maybe he did not hear anything about some psycho murder rap or something, but he just senses…trouble, or that he is not what he seems. So he can lock him up knowing he was in the prison, for something, like Rorge and Biter and can use that as an excuse.

I would totally give it up to Yoren to guess something is up with Jaqen.

I was really being cheeky but, Yoren has certainly traveled quite a bit over all of Westeros and must have seen a thing or two. H'agar does not look, talk or behave at all like Rorge and Biter, so did Yoren see something else in him? Hmmmmm, perhaps.

[Booknerd2]

I don't actually think it's a bunch of bunk/hooey, even if it's not to my liking (though I'm pretty sympathetic to the Faceless, but not at all to R'hllorism). I don't think that Jaqen's actions are entirely inconsistent with the philosophy of the Faceless (we went on for pages about this over at that Heresy thread I mentioned!), and I think that Thoros is very different from Mel (who has definitely gone rogue). Wherever Arya ends up heading, I think she's already been profoundly influenced by the Faceless, though her experiences made her already receptive to their philosophy. I hear you, booknerd, when you're worried that our girl is becoming an angel of death, but don't lose your faith in her! She's got such an amazing ability to trump anyone's ace, and truly, I think that the "enlightened" faceless know how to be simultaneously no one and someone: she might be able to out-faceless the faceless. (I'll confess, though, that I think this might still be something terrifying. Just don't forget: the Faceless are supposedly not allowed to kill someone they know!)

As for Gendry, his R'hllorism is very interesting. It's striking how the thing that finally gets him to blow his top at the Crossroads Inn is the septon wanting to pray, and Gendry's suddenly all up in his R'hllorism. But I think this has to do with him really not liking the direction that the BwB has taken after Beric's death and the rise of LS. I think for him the R'hllorism stands for everything that resonated with him originally about the BwB, and that he saw an authenticity in Thoros' religion, precisely because Thoros wasn't really bullshitting about it; I like to imagine that off scene Gendry and Thoros have been having thoughtful chats with one another when the BwB check in at the Inn. Thoros is a pretty smart guy, and I don't think he's a bad influence for Gendry (errgh, but then there's also that question of whether Thoros knows Gendry's paternity).

Totally agree. And during his cameo appearance in book 4…he was off somehow. And right before that we get the Brienne alluding to Heddle and Arya.

I think the Hound taking her, right after their conversation with Dayne, and she sort of was arguing with him, really shook him. That was his buddy and constant on the road. I am working on part 2 of my Re-Thinking Romance essay, and he tells her she is the only one worth a damn pretty much. So through all he's been from Mott giving him up, the Queen after him, the BWB changing course, and all the other bad stuff, I think he might be using R'hllor and Thoros as a crutch right now. He is keeping busy at the forge, he is making a sword, but I think he feels he needs one as "Sir Gendry.' I think the hammer thing is still all him. And you are right, it is hanging whether Thoros knows or not about his background. But Brienne…it is going to happen. Big cliffhanger. She gets abruptly cut off twice in her eagerness to tell him.

But he wants to be good, he wants to help, and do what is right. He wants a purpose and he is having a bad time right now. On Re-Thinking, I think that was the longest essay I ever did. His struggling in book 4. Short chapter, but really brought it home. He was written and totally different. I can only imagine what happened if we were shown the scene where he finds out Arya was taken. We probably didn't for a reason.

As long as he doesn't get in over his head with R'hllor, and truly I feel that BWB is on its way to having problems. I am still on Thoros Watch with that one.

So he is parted from her. She goes in on direction, he his. But I think they get out of it one day. And he is a constant from day one with with the bull helm, and knowing who he is, and the man he wants to be. The bull helm is like his Needle. It will steer him back, if he goes in too deep. If he has that, he will remember himself. But I have to say I think he is looking for something, trying to adjust and find his way, since Arya, his road partner, left.

But that is the thing with me. If the next day was bad….months later, he is still not himself.

[Booknerd2]

I was really being cheeky but, Yoren has certainly traveled quite a bit over all of Westeros and must have seen a thing or two. H'agar does not look, talk or behave at all like Rorge and Biter, so did Yoren see something else in him? Hmmmmm, perhaps.

This is what I pondered.

Black cells are for the worst prisoners. Does it follow it is max security and that all three are in separate cells?

They either saw him acting like a freak on purpose and (maybe to keep himself safe he used psychology on them) they were warded off, thinking, "Hey, this guy is more screwed up than we are?

They saw some stuff and know it is odd, maybe magic, maybe FM, or so mysterious, they just know to shut up and leave him alone?

If not during the cell stay, it was while they were with Yoren and maybe in the cart early on. They could have messed with him and he did something and they fell into line. Or they saw something we are not aware of, and back the hell up, real quick.

Don't know.

But it is a funny bit. We know those two are savages even more so later on in the series. And you have this cute, well-mannered, courteous odd-speaking, sort of dork, (we don't know too much at that point who he is and what FM means until later) and they try to mess with Arya, they are locked up, but they don't bother him in the least. And our interest in piqued because Yoren says to say away (from all 3). I had this deceptive Hannibal Lector, genius/killer, can snap in a moment, yet be courteous image thing going on when we first were introduced to Jaqen until his stuff and the FM stuff unfolded later.

[Le Cygne]

But it is a funny bit. We know those two are savages even more so later on in the series. And you have this cute, well-mannered, courteous odd-speaking, sort of dork, (we don't know too much at that point who he is and what FM means until later) and they try to mess with Arya, they are locked up, but they don't bother him in the least.

That is very funny! I love the way he set that up! :lol:

Ultimately, Arya is not no one, nor has she ever been, she's been lying to them all along, she still is. What's going to bring her to Westeros, that's the question. James Bond, or the call of the wild (Nymeria), or something...

Also, great theme songs! The Bathhouse Attendant Who Shagged Me! Dr. No One!

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, you can't go by looks. Sansa thought Yoren was terrible based on how he looked yet he later saved Arya. Jaqen is handsome but is just as capable of killing an innocent nice man (Pate) as the other two are. He just won't do it in the same way. GRRM said he didn't put much thought into why Jaqen was in the cells.

ETA: As for Jaqen GRRM said that there hasn't been a contract on the dragons yet. The word yet implies that in the future they might be and the Alchemist is going to get the book The Death of Dragons so it makes sense that he'll be the one sent to deal with them.

[LongRider]

Well, you can't go by looks. Sansa thought Yoren was terrible based on how he looked yet he later saved Arya. Jaqen is handsome but is just as capable of killing an innocent nice man (Pate) as the other two are. He just won't do it in the same way. GRRM said he didn't put much thought into why Jaqen was in the cells.

ETA: As for Jaqen GRRM said that there hasn't been a contract on the dragons yet. The word yet implies that in the future they might be and the Alchemist is going to get the book The Death of Dragons so it makes sense that he'll be the one sent to deal with them.

After I read TPatQ, I decided I hated the dragons so if Jaqen kills the dragons---yay! But you're right, looks don't really matter. Obviously, JH needed Pate dead if he is then to impersonate him, but yeah, Pate was an innocent.

I thought bringing men out of the black cells was a bad policy for the NW, they're just too bad. The FM are so well trained, I wonder if JH would be able to eventually get out the Black Cells on his own? At any rate, he got a good look at the Riverlands and perhaps he'll back.

[LongRider]

A Bond movie was on tv today.

Why start it up? LOL!

From Lorath with love….not

On His Kindly Man’s Secret Service

Gold Coins are Forever

Live and Let Three Die

The Bathhouse Attendant that Shagged Me? This is only a theory. lol!

Can we add a FM cover of the AC/DC old classic "You Shook Me All Night Long."

[Le Cygne]

Obviously anyone can kill, I think the point booknerd2 was making was the intentional humor, the way he wrote it was funny. The scene in the wagon was the perfect setup for what came later. There's a lot of understated humor in the Arya chapters.

And GRRM says he didn't give much thought to how Ned met Syrio, then proceeds to give a rather detailed explanation about how Ned met Syrio, clearly he's given it some thought. Then he's asked a question about Jaqen, that's about an ongoing plot, and he dismisses the question. It's in Spanish, but he says it's a mystery and laughs. That doesn't mean it's a mystery to him. He's evasive and often humorous in the various answers, he doesn't want to give too much away.

http://www.fantasymundo.com/articulos/4658/fantasymundo_entrevista_george_rr_martin_autor_cancion_hielo_fuego

[walkingWITHcersei]

To many pages to see if this was mentioned but Gendry has zero Estermont blood that's Edric Storm ur thinking of.

[Le Cygne]

Robert is Gendry's father. Robert's mother is an Estermont:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert_Baratheon

[Booknerd2]

To many pages to see if this was mentioned but Gendry has zero Estermont blood that's Edric Storm ur thinking of.

Check it out. The three bastards we see the most: Gendry, Mya, Edric have different mothers, but all three are progeny of Robert. Robert's father was King Steffon and his wife was Cassana Estermont. That makes Cassana their grandmother.