The Riverlands Web

[ARYa_Nym]

I wanted to also highlight this bit about Big Nyms:

Just thinking about the sister parallels, Sansa had a near miss with Tyrion, who wanted to mount her, and slayed him with her courtesy armor (words). Littlefinger wants to mount her, too, and hopefully she slays him with something other than words.

Sansa is a she-wolf, too. Arya is a she-wolf. Lyanna was a she-wolf. What are she-wolves all about? Making choices. They want to decide who they mate with - or don't mate with. Lyanna ran off, she didn't want Robert. Sansa ran off, she didn't want Tyrion. Arya just ran off.

Lyanna seems to have wanted Rhaegar. Sansa seems to want Sandor - will she go to him, stay tuned. Arya doesn't seem to want anyone right now. She's in mad as hell and not going to take it anymore mode. But that could change, stay tuned.

The she-wolf decides for herself. She wants to make her own choices.

I thought it was interesting because Nymeria killed her own pack members. Arya did contemplate killing Gendry and Hot Pie but didn't. & she said it's better that Hot Pie fears rather than loves her.

Oh, and it also reflects Arya only using sex as a tool to murder someone as opposed to have any personal interest in it and she did kill a male who tried to mount her not metaphorically but literally like Nymeria.

Plus, it shows a difference to the other wolves. It's often said Shaggydog is the worst/most dangerous but Nymeria clearly is. She will kill. None of the others hunt humans like she does or kill other wolves as easily as she does.

ETA: On Catelyn Arya has nightmares in Braavos about the Twins in which the Hound is a monster in it. She hasn't had it post AFFC though. She only has the nightmares that come with face changing. That paragraph where she got the body also shows Arya's connection to death. Catelyn's dead body smells sweet to her.

[Le Cygne]

Interesting. My thought was the opposite. Her connection to Nymeria is the only thing truly preventing her from becoming no one. When she stops having wolf dreams, we should worry.

Loss of self is not, I think, presented as a positive thing. "No one" is extreme.

The direwolves are presented as a positive thing, however, but not when taken to an extreme.

I think Arya retreats into Nymeria as an escape after the Red Wedding.

Sandor wakes her up and keeps her among the living, he's making her go through the motions, to work through her grief:

Some mornings Arya did not want to wake at all. She would huddle beneath her cloak with her eyes squeezed shut and try to will herself back to sleep. If the Hound would only have left her alone, she would have slept all day and all night. And dreamed. That was the best part, the dreaming. She dreamed of wolves most every night... They would never leave her.

But if her nights were full of wolves, her days belonged to the dog. Sandor Clegane made her get up every morning, whether she wanted to or not. He would curse at her in his raspy voice, or yank her to her feet and shake her. Once he dumped a helm full of cold water all over her head. She bounced up sputtering and shivering and tried to kick him, but he only laughed. “Dry off and feed the bloody horses,” he told her, and she did.

Much like Meera and Jojen pulled Bran back from falling too deeply into Summer, Bran wanted to escape, too:

One day when I come back I won’t know how to talk anymore...

“We were afraid for you.”

“I was with Summer,” Bran said.

“Too long... Take care, Bran. Remember who you are.”

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams?

This is interesting, too, from ADWD prologue:

Let me sleep and never wake, let me begin my second life.

[Le Cygne]

Back to Jon, I think Arya never quite becomes no one, she doesn't give up Needle, and you can't be no one if you love someone. And he loves her. I doubt she'll believe it if she hears he's dead, and there might be a good wolf dream along those lines.

[Father of Hosts]

Loss of self is not, I think, presented as a positive thing. "No one" is extreme.

The direwolves are presented as a positive thing, however, but not when taken to an extreme.

I think Arya retreats into Nymeria as an escape after the Red Wedding.

Sandor wakes her up and keeps her among the living, he's making her go through the motions, to work through her grief:

Much like Meera and Jojen pulled Bran back from falling too deeply into Summer, Bran wanted to escape, too:

Ah, I see. I guess I was thinking more Arya in Bravos. That, like Needle and Jon, Nymeria is another part of her past that keeps her from becoming no one, at least as the faceless man thing is concerned. Sort of works both ways for her I guess, it could help her stay Arya or her experience losing herself into Nymeria will help her become no one easier.

Sort of an off topic but something I've always been curious about, in one of Cat's chapters I think, Roose leaves a force of 400 northmen with Kyle Condon somewhere around the Neck to guard the trident against Tywin. When Jaime is in the riverlands, he hears a report that part of Robb's now scattered forces are still roaming the Riverlands, picking off Lannister's and Frey's. I wonder if Nymeria's (wolves) going north might mean these forces are headed that way as well. The whole wolves mean Stark men double entendre.

If not, its a neat little sidenote for the thread. Somewhere around the Riverlands, there are 400 very angry northmen.

[Booknerd2]

Totally.

And I love the stuff Le Cygne said, I never thought of the other stuff regarding Arya and Nyms before.

Nymeria is the essence of Arya's "Starkness." I think too when the time comes that she gets back to Westeros and becomes involved in family affairs again, it will be to some degree a combination of Big Nyms, not permanently ridding herself of Needle, thus she retrieves it, and her love for Jon. Other love for Starks too of course.

They are one in the same. Yeah, Big Nyms is a Stark too! So are the other dire wolves, or so that is how I view them. She is Nymeria "Big Nyms" Stark to me. LOL!

[Le Cygne]

That, like Needle and Jon, Nymeria is another part of her past that keeps her from becoming no one, at least as the faceless man thing is concerned.

I agree, I was focusing on her grief, I think he did a great job showing what that's like, with the Arya post-RW stuff, like the soldier doll, too. The death of her mother really hit her hard. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and not necessarily in that order. Sandor knows, too.

They broke their fast in silence, until Sandor said, "This thing about your mother ..."

"It doesn’t matter," Arya said in a dull voice. "I know she’s dead. I saw her in a dream."

The Hound looked at her a long time, then nodded.

[Le Cygne]

They are one in the same. Yeah, Big Nyms is a Stark too! So are the other dire wolves, or so that is how I view them. She is Nymeria "Big Nyms" Stark to me. LOL!

Catch the Nymeria love! :lol:

I was just thinking about that song, You're nobody 'til somebody loves you. You can't be no one if someone loves you! And Arya is totally on Jon's mind in ADWD. I think GRRM kept that connection alive and circled back to it for a reason.

[LongRider]

Sorry, one more Sandor/Stranger bit... (bits, get it? :)) Just wanted to hammer it what GRRM is telling with the words is that Sandor doesn't belong on the Quiet Isle. So I think this is a hint he's not long for that place.

"The Hound is dead" is a cute way of saying Sandor got over his anger over his brother issues, the Hound persona was his defense mechanism to protect himself from Gregor. But let's note that Sansa (Beauty) still refers to Sandor as the Hound (the Beast), and she likes his "ferocity" (and indeed, seems rather turned on by it, cruel kisses, oooh la la).

Sandor has slowly gone from driven by hate to driven by love, hence he's sobbing on his deathbed about Sansa, not that he never got the chance to kill Gregor. People think about who and what matters most to them when they are dying, and Sandor is thinking about her. And we have this to underscore what that sobbing is really about, the Beast almost dies of heartbreak:

~snip~

And that's what Sandor was doing when he "chanced" (ha ha ha) to fling the dirt, he may have a bum leg, but this is the Hound, he knows how to aim a clod of dirt at a couple of passing "knights" (for all he knew, Brienne was a knight). He was trumpeting at the sound of their voices and kicking at the door of his stall:

First off...squeee! the threads alive again. ahem. Anyway, when I first came to this site I read quite a bit of the PtP threads (they're great!) an a theme of the later threads was Sansa coming into her own and developing her own agency instead of just being a pretty wife or someone's pawn. This is a theme I feel is seen with other POV's; Arya, Jon, Bran and even Theon. And I'm beginning to think, with Sandor as well. He's leaving the role of the Lannister toady and the man owned by his hate and bitterness. The Stark girls have given him reason to change; one helped him find his heart and the other, his consciense. Now on the QI he can put it all together.

I wanted to also highlight this bit about Big Nyms:

Just thinking about the sister parallels, Sansa had a near miss with Tyrion, who wanted to mount her, and slayed him with her courtesy armor (words). Littlefinger wants to mount her, too, and hopefully she slays him with something other than words.

Sansa is a she-wolf, too. Arya is a she-wolf. Lyanna was a she-wolf. What are she-wolves all about? Making choices. They want to decide who they mate with - or don't mate with. Lyanna ran off, she didn't want Robert. Sansa ran off, she didn't want Tyrion. Arya just ran off.

Lyanna seems to have wanted Rhaegar. Sansa seems to want Sandor - will she go to him, stay tuned. Arya doesn't seem to want anyone right now. She's in mad as hell and not going to take it anymore mode. But that could change, stay tuned.

The she-wolf decides for herself. She wants to make her own choices.

edit; will have to figure out the spoiler tags another day.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya does use her sexuality to Raff in for the kill tho. She made a big choice there.

She felt physical attraction but no sexual attraction towards any male and specifically him. She was very clinical not passionate. So I think that scene reaffirms no interest in sex from her besides using it as a tool to murder.

ETA:

Although some think she's going the Ramsay route of getting off on violence I think that remains to be seen. They thought so because the way she talked about him.

I want him so bad etc.

I'm not sold though.

[LongRider]

It's often said Shaggydog is the worst/most dangerous but Nymeria clearly is. She will kill. None of the others hunt humans like she does or kill other wolves as easily as she does.

And so will Arya, in many ways they mirror each other.

Ah, I see. I guess I was thinking more Arya in Bravos. That, like Needle and Jon, Nymeria is another part of her past that keeps her from becoming no one, at least as the faceless man thing is concerned. Sort of works both ways for her I guess, it could help her stay Arya or her experience losing herself into Nymeria will help her become no one easier.

~snip~

If not, its a neat little sidenote for the thread. Somewhere around the Riverlands, there are 400 very angry northmen.

Needle and the Wolf Dreams! Hey, good name for a band. Opps, um back to topic. Not being able to part from Needle is huge, and sharing wolf dreams with Nyms is as well. I like the idea of Nym leading Arya back to Westeros and the rest of the Starks.

I hope the 400 po'd Northmen have it out for the Freys and the Boltons!

~~Snip~~

Nymeria is the essence of Arya's "Starkness." I think too when the time comes that she gets back to Westeros and becomes involved in family affairs again, it will be to some degree a combination of Big Nyms, not permanently ridding herself of Needle, thus she retrieves it, and her love for Jon. Other love for Starks too of course.

They are one in the same. Yeah, Big Nyms is a Stark too! So are the other dire wolves, or so that is how I view them. She is Nymeria "Big Nyms" Stark to me. LOL!

Agree 100%.

[LongRider]

She felt physical attraction but no sexual attraction towards any male and specifically him. She was very clinical not passionate. So I think that scene reaffirms no interest in sex from her besides using it as a tool to murder.

I'm not sold though.

I agree and felt that should be obvious as I thought how it was written showed us that. I'm not sold on your spoiler either, Arya will have her own unique path.

[ARYa_Nym]

I agree and felt that should be obvious as I thought how it was written showed us that. I'm not sold on your spoiler either, Arya will have her own unique path.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards asexual or at least functioning as one but I do think she may continue using seduction as a murder tool. I don't see the point of introducing it if it was a one time thing.

[Le Cygne]

(I think we're supposed to spoiler tag Mercy stuff outside of the TWOW forum, BTW...)

[ARYa_Nym]

She did desire him but in a blood lust way not sexual. You can desire someone you hate but she didn't desire him. She has no sexual desire though.

ETA: With the sailors and all the men she hangs she likes them but desires none of them.

[Booknerd2]

Catch the Nymeria love! :lol:

I was just thinking about that song, You're nobody 'til somebody loves you. You can't be no one if someone loves you! And Arya is totally on Jon's mind in ADWD. I think GRRM kept that connection alive and circled back to it for a reason.

Oh, and I almost forgot. That is one of my favorite things too, that you mentioned. The Hound, who is a mess himself, trying to get Arya out of a rut and try to get some sort of semblance of a routine going. He doesn't want her to go to the dark side and dwell, and he knows first hand it can be a very dark place to go.

Sometimes, it is very hard to find your way back too. And he knows that first hand.

But the trying to talk things over about her mother, it was so sweet, and of course, very sad, but him trying is friggin hilarious too.

And yeah, I love that dire wolf. She is my first. Grey Wind is my second. 3rd is Ghost, and Shaggy has grown on me. LOL! He needs to calm the hell down. He is even more pissed off than Big Nyms, like, all of the time...

Lady…I try not to think about. I love her characterization and that broke my heart. And that gave me the kick in the ass before Ned's death, that this first time series I was reading, was going to be a roller coaster.

Come on, who kills the cute pet in the movie or book? I was so confident she made it out. Well, besides, Bambi….I did NOT see Lady coming. And I knew I had just opened a can of literary worms. LOL! I think I was in shock for like two days. And I was reading the book along with the tv show so I was ahead for both at different times, and I saw Lady on the series first, and the visual…I still have to brace myself when we do a GOT DVD marathon at home. And it was just as bad in the book, or worse.

I will tell you guys my reaction to Ned one of these days. It was pretty bad. I was stupid enough to think Lady was bad enough…that he gets out too.

(Everybody put your hands in the circle)…..WHOAH…..Big Nyms!)

[Hrafntýr]

<snip>

Lady…I try not to think about. I love her characterization and that broke my heart. And that gave me the kick in the ass before Ned's death, that this first time series I was reading, was going to be a roller coaster.

Come on, who kills the cute pet in the movie or book? I was so confident she made it out. Well, besides, Bambi….I did NOT see Lady coming. And I knew I had just opened a can of literary worms. LOL! I think I was in shock for like two days. And I was reading the book along with the tv show so I was ahead for both at different times, and I saw Lady on the series first, and the visual…I still have to brace myself when we do a GOT DVD marathon at home. And it was just as bad in the book, or worse.

I will tell you guys my reaction to Ned one of these days. It was pretty bad. I was stupid enough to think Lady was bad enough…that he gets out too.

(Everybody put your hands in the circle)…..WHOAH…..Big Nyms!)

Damn, it was Old Yeller and The Yearling all over again. Gods I hated those books as a kid. The Yearling is more in GRRM's vein, I suppose, no cute puppies to "replace" Old Yeller Lady. I mean, GRRM, are you really doing to make me think about which is worse, Lady trusting Ned or Big Nyms being driven off with stones? Err, thinking about Arya throwing rocks at Nymeria still makes me weepy.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. The Riverlands characters and storylines always remind me of the legends of Robin Hood -- the BwB seem like a darker, more sinister Merry Men to me. Even some of the names and characterizations seem to echo the Robin Hood story. (Does that make Tywin or the Mountain the Sheriff of Nottingham?)

Significant plot events related to romance took place in the Riverlands. What we've learned about the Tourney at Harrenhal makes it seem like borderline soap, and of course, Robb's love for Jeyne led to the Red Wedding at the Twins. And as many of you have noted above, many of the series' fan favorite "pairings" are linked to the Riverlands as well -- Jamie/Brienne, Arya/Gendry, Sansa/Sandor, and although Sansa's SL is more KL & Vale, Sandor spent a great deal of time in the area, and his helm's been there even longer.

Love this thread! Following it. :)

[Le Cygne]

The good side of the Lady thing is all the dog stuff that followed. Sandor thinks he's Lady. Sansa thinks he's Lady. :lol:

Just kidding, but check out their almost rumble, the Hound and Lady "compete" to protect Sansa:

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her...

Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning.

He does the between move to protect Sansa later:

Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

She thinks about the Hound protecting her, then Lady:

Joffrey laughed. "He's my mother's dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does."

"You mean the Hound," she said... "Is it safe to leave him behind?" She found herself thinking of Lady, wishing the direwolf was with her.

Robert to Ned, just before Lady dies:

"A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

And when Sansa thinks about Lady:

Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could...

She runs right into Sandor and he says:

"A dog can smell a lie, you know."

Again, she thinks Lady and there Sandor is:

Sansa backed away from the window... "Lady," she whimpered softly, wondering if she would meet her wolf again when she was dead....

Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist.

She sleeps with the hound she made friends with and she dreams of the Hound and then wishes the hound was Lady:

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

[Hrafntýr]

The good side of the Lady thing is all the dog stuff that followed. Sandor thinks he's Lady. Sansa thinks he's Lady. :lol:

Just kidding, but check out their almost rumble, the Hound and Lady "compete" to protect Sansa:

He does the between move to protect Sansa later:

She thinks about the Hound protecting her, then Lady:

And when Sansa thinks about Lady:

She runs right into Sandor and he says:

Again, she thinks Lady and there Sandor is:

She sleeps with the hound she made friends with and she dreams of the Hound and then wishes the hound was Lady:

Wow. That was just brilliant, Le Cygne.

[Booknerd2]

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. The Riverlands characters and storylines always remind me of the legends of Robin Hood -- the BwB seem like a darker, more sinister Merry Men to me. Even some of the names and characterizations seem to echo the Robin Hood story. (Does that make Tywin or the Mountain the Sheriff of Nottingham?)

Significant plot events related to romance took place in the Riverlands. What we've learned about the Tourney at Harrenhal makes it seem like borderline soap, and of course, Robb's love for Jeyne led to the Red Wedding at the Twins. And as many of you have noted above, many of the series' fan favorite "pairings" are linked to the Riverlands as well -- Jamie/Brienne, Arya/Gendry, Sansa/Sandor, and although Sansa's SL is more KL & Vale, Sandor spent a great deal of time in the area, and his helm's been there even longer.

Love this thread! Following it. :)

Hi!

Thanks so much. Great to hear it and that you are enjoying it.