Mikkel Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 You may want to sit down before reading this. There's this theory that's been going around the boards for a while. It turns out that Jon isn't actually Ned's son! Shocking, huh? It's called R+L=J. I'm surprised you don't know about it: It's on its 98th iteration. Anyway, give it a read.http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115906-rlj-v98/ That's being willfully obtuse, and you know it. Whoever his parents turn out to be (yes I believe RLJ too, obviously), Jon is Ned's son in all but blood, and as much a member of "The Starks" as Catelyn. Yes, I know he says the line "I'm no Stark father", but even Bran remarks on how that's kinda not how anyone thinks of it, it's just Jon being selfless (and highly symbolic, naturally). That's why I have an issue with discounting Jon but including Catelyn to make the numbers. Not any attempt to say Catelyn isn't part of the family. That, and the fact that whatever Catelyn is now, "The Mother gives the gift of life, and watches over every wife. Her gentle smile ends all strife, and she loves her little children" doesn't seem to fit her, at all, any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 That's being willfully obtuse, and you know it. Whoever his parents turn out to be (yes I believe RLJ too, obviously), Jon is Ned's son in all but blood, and as much a member of "The Starks" as Catelyn. Yes, I know he says the line "I'm no Stark father", but even Bran remarks on how that's kinda not how anyone thinks of it, it's just Jon being selfless (and highly symbolic, naturally). That's why I have an issue with discounting Jon but including Catelyn to make the numbers. Not any attempt to say Catelyn isn't part of the family. That, and the fact that whatever Catelyn is now, "The Mother gives the gift of life, and watches over every wife. Her gentle smile ends all strife, and she loves her little children" doesn't seem to fit her, at all, any more.It's not being obtuse, it's being sarcastic. Being obtuse is insisting that people who aren't Ned, Cat, and their children are members of the Stark family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 It's not being obtuse, it's being sarcastic. Being obtuse is insisting that people who aren't Ned, Cat, and their children are members of the Stark family. OK. How exactly do you define 'family'? Your definition seems quite peculiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 OK. How exactly do you define 'family'? Your definition seems quite peculiar.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 It's not being obtuse, it's being sarcastic. Being obtuse is insisting that people who aren't Ned, Cat, and their children are members of the Stark family. Being obtuse is insisting that the Stark family is limited to Ned, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when there is also Benjen and Jon who are both more Stark than Cat will ever be. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family Technically the Starks are a family with more than two parents, so your nuclear definition does nothing but prove how arbitrary your decisions in who counts and who doesn't really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 They live together, and Ned is Jon's adopted father. Therefore Jon is part of the Stark family.Stop with the sarcasm.Jon would be part of the Strak family no matter what. He is a Strak by blood, either through Ned, or through Lyanna (R+L=J). It would be weird not to count the Stark by blood, to include the Stark by marriage.OP, If you which to only include Ned, Cat, Robb, Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon, perhaps use different wording in the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Being obtuse is insisting that the Stark family is limited to Ned, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when there is also Benjen and Jon who are both more Stark than Cat will ever be. Technically the Starks are a family with more than two parents, so your nuclear definition does nothing but prove how arbitrary your decisions in who counts and who doesn't really is. Well put. "Nuclear family" is not a term that applies to a medieval setting at all. It's a fairly recent construct, and the definition of a family as a married couple and their trueborn children only just doesn't exist in Westeros. It's not being obtuse, it's being sarcastic. Being obtuse is insisting that people who aren't Ned, Cat, and their children are members of the Stark family. Insisting Jon isn't a Stark, when it's obvious he is even though he doesn't bear the family name, even though you yourself (sarcastically) reference RLJ, it's being willfully obtuse. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Nuclear families do not exist in Westeros.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FamilyJon's obviously family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Fine, I give up, you're right. Everyone with Stark blood is a member of the Stark family. And that includes the Karstarks: Alys, Richard, Harrion, Torrhen, Eddard, Arnold, Cregan, Arthor, and his three sons. Wait, wasn't the Night's King a Stark? He had kids with the Others! We should include Puddles as a Stark! He might be! What about Bael the Bard? Didn't he steal a Stark daughter and take her beyond the Wall? Who knows how many kids they had and where they went? I guess we'll have to include a few hundred random wildlings as well! All part of the Stark family!I apologize Unsowed,Unspent, Unspoken. Threads can get derailed for any number of reasons. I've been trying to defend your basic assertion (and common sense.) I find it interesting that the series may be about the creation of the gods. It's a shame that the thread has been hijacked by trolls insisting that first cousins MUST be considered family, while mothers MUST NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I apologize Unsowed,Unspent, Unspoken. Threads can get derailed for any number of reasons. I've been trying to defend your basic assertion (and common sense.) I find it interesting that the series may be about the creation of the gods. It's a shame that the thread has been hijacked by trolls insisting that first cousins MUST be considered family, while mothers MUST NOT.Wikipedia explains it nicely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FamilyIn human context, a family (from Latin: familia) is a group of people affiliated by consanguinity (by recognized birth), affinity (by marriage), or co-residence/shared consumption (see Nurture kinship).So yes Jon is part of the family along with all of Ned's children, but Benjen isn't.You're rather obviously willfully ignoring common sense. And sarcasm doesn't really help your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I apologize Unsowed,Unspent, Unspoken. Threads can get derailed for any number of reasons. I've been trying to defend your basic assertion (and common sense.) I find it interesting that the series may be about the creation of the gods. It's a shame that the thread has been hijacked by trolls insisting that first cousins MUST be considered family, while mothers MUST NOT. No one has been riding that particular horse other than you, who insist mothers must count but officially-and-for-all-practical-purposes-sons must not. If anything, the sanest definition includes Jon and Catelyn, but obviously not all those people you so sarcastically bring up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 co-residence/shared consumption Unless you're willing to argue that Theon is also a Stark family member, then this might not be the argument you want to make. No one has been riding that particular horse other than you, who insist mothers must count but extended family must not. I fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 WikipediaFamily types of pre-industrial Europe belonged into two basic groups, the "simple household system" (the nuclear family), and the "joint family system" (the extended family).[5] A simple household system featured a relatively late age of marriage for both men and women, and the establishment of separate household after the marriage or neolocality.[5] A joint family household system was characterized by earlier marriage for women, co residence with the husband's family or patrilocality, and co-residing of multiple generations.The Stark family is therefore a joint family system. Cat married at 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Extended family = family, in most Medieval definitions. The predominance of the nuclear family is a modern phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 This theory is about the Ned's family, not the Stark's as a whole. Jon no matter what his parentage is either a Snow or Targaryen(and that's only if R+L actually married). This has nothing to do with who has what blood and what house they came from, Catelyn is a Stark through marriage to Ned and all 7 of her children are Ned's. Even if Jon is Ned's son he is still a Snow and not a Stark, therefore would not be included in this theory. The only reason you guys are attacking this theory from "who counts as family" front is because the rest of it seems possible and you have nothing else to attack. Jon is not a Stark no matter what(unless Robb's will is revealed and Jon accepts, but seeing as he turned down Stannis already). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 This theory is about the Ned's family, not the Stark's as a whole. Jon no matter what his parentage is either a Snow or Targaryen(and that's only if R+L actually married). This has nothing to do with who has what blood and what house they came from, Catelyn is a Stark through marriage to Ned and all 7 of her children are Ned's. Even if Jon is Ned's son he is still a Snow and not a Stark, therefore would not be included in this theory. The only reason you guys are attacking this theory from "who counts as family" front is because the rest of it seems possible and you have nothing else to attack. Jon is not a Stark no matter what(unless Robb's will is revealed and Jon accepts, but seeing as he turned down Stannis already).If Jon's not included because he's not a Stark...Where's Benjen STARK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 "Her gentle smile ends all strife," doesn't really sound like Catelyn (especially UnCat) to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hightower Girl Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 I think Theon would be regarded member of the Stark family in medieval setting. By blood and name he is a Greyjoy, but he lives with the Starks and is actually raised by them, although his father was forced to give him to Winterfell. He later might be considered a match for one of the daughters, especially when he becomes Lord of the Isles. The whole idea of raising other houses' children is to tighten relations between the houses. That is why apart from having his a daughter bethroted to Robb and a grandson to Arya, Walder Frey wants Catelyn to take two of his grandsons to be raised in Winterfell with Bran and Rickon, hoping to have future relations with younger Starks as well, possibly excluding other families' influence on them. Ned and Robert Baratheon were raised together, which not only led to their brotherly relation but also to a betrothal of Robert with Lyanna, and when it was not fulfilled, to the bethrotal of Joffrey and Sansa as something natural, if not the age difference Robb would have probably taken Myrcella as a bride, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastStark Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 If Jon's not included because he's not a Stark...Where's Benjen STARK?When did Catelyn give birth to Benjen? Oh that's right she didn't. As stated already, it's NOT about the BLOOD. Did you understand that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 And also, how can this theory if true affect the story in any meaningful way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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