Why didn't Robb squire?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Olyvar_Frey

Robb isn't a knight, so he can't technically make Olyvar a knight, but Olyvar can squire for him and be knighted by someone else. Though I'm sure most would look the other way if Robb had knighted him, Robb being a king who worships the Old Gods.

Of course, but these are pretty unusual circumstances. It's 99.99999% politics in that case while in most cases it's 10% politics and 90% giving a proper education. Shifting priorities as you go up the nobility tiers of course.

[Wmarshal]

Northerners are not Knights or Squires because they do not follow the Seven.

But they do squire or had squires, Brandon had Edmure squiring for him and Jeor and Jon had squires.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But they do squire or had squires, Brandon had Edmure squiring for him and Jeor and Jon had squires.

That's a problem of naming conventions. Because squire describes both the job, which needs to be filled in the North as well, as the guy aspiring to be a knight. Which the Northmen don't.

[NorthernXY]

Robb isn't a squire, because he isn't training to become a knight ;) That doesn't mean that he doesn't receive the same training as a squire :) We see that he does, in Game of Thrones, as Ser Rodrik, the Master-at-Arms, trains him.

Ned was fostered in the Vale, and did all the things for Jon Arryn that a squire would have done. Yet Ned wasn't a squire, because he wasn't training for knighthood.

So Robb wasn't a squire in name, but his training was equal to the training that a squire would have received.

Okay, why didn't Robb foster anywhere? You're arguing semantics.

Ned recalls his time being fostered by Jon Arryn as a wonderful time in his youth. While he couldn't send Robb to be squired at the Eyrie, he could have sent him somewhere in the North with who he had or wanted to have a better alliance with.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Okay, why didn't Robb foster anywhere? You're arguing semantics.

Because Ned wanted to keep his family close, because Cat would have a seizure if Robb was sent away while Jon stayed and because Robb was a bit on the younger side for it.

[NorthernXY]

Because Ned wanted to keep his family close, because Cat would have a seizure if Robb was sent away while Jon stayed and because Robb was a bit on the younger side for it.

Ned was ready to take Bran to KL before he was pushed out the window. Cat be damned.

[BearQueen87]

Northerners are not Knights or Squires because they do not follow the Seven.

I don't know if that's wholly true. From Dany's first POV in GOT

"...the man with the green beard is brother to the Archon of Tyrosh, and the man behind him is Ser Jorah Mormont."

The last name caught Daenerys. "A knight?"

"No less." Illyrio smiled through his beard. "Anointed with the seven oils by the Holy Septon himself."

Bear Island is definitely in the North and I assume practices the faith of the Old Gods.

As to the OP of Robb, I think Rhaenys_Targaryen is right:

Robb isn't a squire, because he isn't training to become a knight ;) That doesn't mean that he doesn't receive the same training as a squire :) We see that he does, in Game of Thrones, as Ser Rodrik, the Master-at-Arms, trains him.

[RainGhost]

Because Ned wanted to keep his family close, because Cat would have a seizure if Robb was sent away while Jon stayed and because Robb was a bit on the younger side for it.

Yes, exactly, what to do with Jon? Of course, he could have had Jon fostered, which might have actually made the Cat situation easier. As we see with Larence Snow, there's nothing wrong with bastards being fostered. But I think you're right in that Ned just wanted to keep his family together. He was sent away from Winterfell when he was 8 and when he became an adult, he ended up losing his entire family. Maybe he thinks about all those lost years. Of course all that changed when King Robert turned up.

[RumHam]

I don't know if that's wholly true. From Dany's first POV in GOT

Bear Island is definitely in the North and I assume practices the faith of the Old Gods.

He was knighted for bravery by Robert after the battle at Pyke. There are a few followers of the old gods who earned knighthood this way. Roderik Cassel, the guy who runs the Wolf's Den for Manderly. I seem to remember that there was some uncertainty if Jorah followed the Faith of the Seven or the Old Gods. I can't remember why, maybe he says "seven hells" or something at some point. Anyway some people felt he may have effectively converted at some point, maybe when he married the Hightower girl.

[NorthernXY]

Bear Island is definitely in the North and I assume practices the faith of the Old Gods.

I questioned this for a while, then just came to the conclusion that Jorah isn't a religious man so his oaths/vows to the 7 were just words to him. He sold slaves after that which is no, no to both the FotS and OG. In Dany's POVs, you never hear him talk about religion, or wants to go home, but you never hear about him going to pray.

Yes, exactly, what to do with Jon? Of course, he could have had Jon fostered, which might have actually made the Cat situation easier. As we see with Larence Snow, there's nothing wrong with bastards being fostered. But I think you're right in that Ned just wanted to keep his family together. He was sent away from Winterfell when he was 8 and when he became an adult, he ended up losing his entire family. Maybe he thinks about all those lost years. Of course all that changed when King Robert turned up.

With the birth of Rickon there would be 3 Stark males, so sending Robb off to be fostered would be a good idea. When talking to Cat about taking Bran to KL, he mentions in time being fostered in the Eyrie with Robert has some of the best days of his life/youth. So it's not likely he has bad feelings about fostering/squiring, unless he's lying to Cat.

[BearQueen87]

He was knighted for bravery by Robert after the battle at Pyke. There are a few followers of the old gods who earned knighthood this way. Roderik Cassel, the guy who runs the Wolf's Den for Manderly. I seem to remember that there was some uncertainty if Jorah followed the Faith of the Seven or the Old Gods. I can't remember why, maybe he says "seven hells" or something at some point. Anyway some people felt he may have effectively converted at some point, maybe when he married the Hightower girl.

Ah Illyrio is lying then? Thanks for clearing that up. Now that you mention the battle at Pyke, I recall it.

And yeah Jorah's religion is never really known. Though, I don't think the seven hells comment can be taken as evidence of the faith of the 7. Doesn't Ned say something about the seven frozen hells for the Stark's? But mostly I think Jorah is very "eh" about religion as a whole.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Okay, why didn't Robb foster anywhere? You're arguing semantics.

Ned recalls his time being fostered by Jon Arryn as a wonderful time in his youth. While he couldn't send Robb to be squired at the Eyrie, he could have sent him somewhere in the North with who he had or wanted to have a better alliance with.

I never say why Robb isn't fostered anywhere..

Ned indeed has fond memories about his time at the Eyrie, and you'd think that he might want some similar experience for Robb. That Ned, instead, keeps all his children close, might have something to do with deeper fears of Ned (and in small part, Catelyn wanting to keep her children close perhaps. But that only in a small part).

Ned has been keeping secrets for 14 years when we first see him, and while those secrets aren't directly about Robb, that doesn't mean that Robb can't be used by the wrong people, should those people use the secrets that Ned has been keeping.

Look at the situation of Robert Arryn: Tywin Lannister offers to foster Robert due to Cersei wanting it to happen. Robert in Lannister hands would ensure Lysa keeping silent on whatever Jon Arryn would have told her (unfortunately for Cersei, she doesn't know that Lysa doesn't know a thing). Should anyone discover what secrets Ned has been keeping, Robb being fostered there could mean Robb could be used against Ned.

The situation with Bran going south is completely different. Bran, in that case, isn't fostered anywhere.. He will be living with his father, educated by his father, thought by his father, trained under the watchfull eye of his father.

[NorthernXY]

He was knighted for bravery by Robert after the battle at Pyke. There are a few followers of the old gods who earned knighthood this way. Roderik Cassel, the guy who runs the Wolf's Den for Manderly. I seem to remember that there was some uncertainty if Jorah followed the Faith of the Seven or the Old Gods. I can't remember why, maybe he says "seven hells" or something at some point. Anyway some people felt he may have effectively converted at some point, maybe when he married the Hightower girl.

The Old Bear asks Jon if he worships the Old Gods, and says his father did as well. The Mormont women, Jeor's sister and nieces, definitely worship the Old Gods. It's never really stated what religion Jeor worships.

[RainGhost]

I questioned this for a while, then just came to the conclusion that Jorah isn't a religious man so his oaths/vows to the 7 were just words to him. He sold slaves after that which is no, no to both the FotS and OG. In Dany's POVs, you never hear him talk about religion, or wants to go home, but you never hear about him going to pray.

With the birth of Rickon there would be 3 Stark males, so sending Robb off to be fostered would be a good idea. When talking to Cat about taking Bran to KL, he mentions in time being fostered in the Eyrie with Robert has some of the best days of his life/youth. So it's not likely he has bad feelings about fostering/squiring, unless he's lying to Cat.

I've always wondered about the Mormonts. We know they're not the original inhabitants of Bear Island and in ADwD Tyrion refers to Jorah as an Andal, although this is before he knows who he is. Maybe they were southrons given land like the Manderlys?

That's a good point about 3 Stark males but I think it more likely that Bran would have been fostered in a year or 2, seeing as Robb was the heir and nearly of age. If Catelyn would have agreed to it of course. I don't think Ned had bad feelings about fostering but he still might have wanted his family to stay close. Maybe he would have had Bran fostered at another northern House.

[NorthernXY]

I never say why Robb isn't fostered anywhere..

Ned indeed has fond memories about his time at the Eyrie, and you'd think that he might want some similar experience for Robb. That Ned, instead, keeps all his children close, might have something to do with deeper fears of Ned (and in small part, Catelyn wanting to keep her children close perhaps. But that only in a small part).

Ned has been keeping secrets for 14 years when we first see him, and while those secrets aren't directly about Robb, that doesn't mean that Robb can't be used by the wrong people, should those people use the secrets that Ned has been keeping.

Look at the situation of Robert Arryn: Tywin Lannister offers to foster Robert due to Cersei wanting it to happen. Robert in Lannister hands would ensure Lysa keeping silent on whatever Jon Arryn would have told her (unfortunately for Cersei, she doesn't know that Lysa doesn't know a thing). Should anyone discover what secrets Ned has been keeping, Robb being fostered there could mean Robb could be used against Ned.

The situation with Bran going south is completely different. Bran, in that case, isn't fostered anywhere.. He will be living with his father, educated by his father, thought by his father, trained under the watchfull eye of his father.

The purpose of being fostered/squired somewhere else is to build alliances. Sure you wouldn't send your son and heir to someone known to have a poor master-at-arms, but you'd find a good place for them to learn independence and build stronger alliances Ned could have sent Robb somewhere in the North. Ned was fostered at 8, same age as Bran at the beginning of GoT.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

There are a few knights in the North, especially in the lands around White Harbour, but most of the Northern cavalry aren't knighted because it's not a widespread custom as Maester Luwin repeatedly explained to Bran, but it does happen.

I think the question of why neither Robb or Bran hadn't been sent away to be a ward is interesting, but given Ned's extreme wariness of the Lannisters and the corrupting influence of life at court in King's Landing it's probably not hugely surprising he held back. I suppose Riverrun could have been a possibility, but the Eyrie and Storm's End were out (both high lords were in KL) as was Stannis until immediately prior the events in AGOT.

Beyond that he may be wary of other southern houses in the Crownlands and the Reach that fought for the Mad King in Robert's Rebellion.

So he'd be left with the North re Robb. Why would you send your son and heir to be a ward or a squire, etc to a lesser house in the north? I wouldn't trust my son with Roose Bolton for one thing. The Manderlys at Whiteharbour are the only ones who might have anything to teach him re a broader perspective of lordship.

[Robb_Warged]

I think the better questions are:

1. Why didn't Robb survive when he's infinitely more interesting (and his fight is infinitely more interesting) than 90% of the characters we have to put up with in the story?

2. Why didn't Robb get resurrected and turned into a revenge machine over his mother?

3. Why do we have no firsthand account of what happened to Grey Wind?

4. What is Theon going to do with his life after being allowed to live over such a great character?

5. Is Robb's ghost going to rescue Sansa or Grey Wind's ghost going to rescue poor Sansa?

6. Why does Robb generate more discussion than any other character of this series does?

It's a testament to this series that I read after my favorite character being murdered 40% of the way into the story. If Jaime dies in book 6 or sansan is ended, I don't know how I'll force myself to keep reading

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The purpose of being fostered/squired somewhere else is to build alliances. Sure you wouldn't send your son and heir to someone known to have a poor master-at-arms, but you'd find a good place for them to learn independence and build stronger alliances Ned could have sent Robb somewhere in the North. Ned was fostered at 8, same age as Bran at the beginning of GoT.

Fostering usually is to build alliances. In cases like Theons, it is because you function as a hostage.

I never said anything about a poor master-at-arms, so I am not sure why you bring that up? But even so, if you need to make friends with Lord A, and Lord A happens to have a poor master-at-arms, that is just too bad for you, and your son will need some training from someone else on the side. If you foster someone out because there is a need for an alliance, then you foster out your child.

Ned could have send Robb to someone in the North, but why? There was no need for building alliances, and fostering out your son could be taken as chosing favorites amongst your bannermen, and thus could offend other bannermen..

[NorthernXY]

I've always wondered about the Mormonts. We know they're not the original inhabitants of Bear Island and in ADwD Tyrion refers to Jorah as an Andal, although this is before he knows who he is. Maybe they were southrons given land like the Manderlys?

That's a good point about 3 Stark males but I think it more likely that Bran would have been fostered in a year or 2, seeing as Robb was the heir and nearly of age. If Catelyn would have agreed to it of course. I don't think Ned had bad feelings about fostering but he still might have wanted his family to stay close. Maybe he would have had Bran fostered at another northern House.

It's not out of the question, but I think the Mormonts are First Men who were raised to lords for valor. They definitely have blood of the First men in them, hence the skinchanging rumors of them into bears.

I think the question of why neither Robb or Bran hadn't been sent away to be a ward is interesting, but given Ned's extreme wariness of the Lannisters and the corrupting influence of life at court in King's Landing it's probably not hugely surprising he held back. I suppose Riverrun could have been a possibility, but the Eyrie and Storm's End were out (both high lords were in KL) as was Stannis until immediately prior the events in AGOT.

Beyond that he may be wary of other southern houses in the Crownlands and the Reach that fought for the Mad King in Robert's Rebellion.

So he'd be left with the North re Robb. Why would you send your son and heir to be a ward or a squire, etc to a lesser house in the north? I wouldn't trust my son with Roose Bolton for one thing. The Manderlys at Whiteharbour are the only ones who might have anything to teach him re a broader perspective of lordship.

When Rickon was born Robb would have been around 11, a good age to send Robb to a North house or Riverrun. Robb is heir to the North, a lot of houses would be banging down Ned's door to foster him, or see him not being fostered as a sign up Ned's mistrust in everybody. Wasn't thinking at first and wrote Storm's End and Dragonstone, then you reminded me they weren't an option because Stannis and Renly were at KL.

Brandon Stark, Ned's brother, was fostered in Barrowton, a less house in the North.

I think the better questions are:

1. Why didn't Robb survive when he's infinitely more interesting (and his fight is infinitely more interesting) than 90% of the characters we have to put up with in the story

2. Why didn't Robb get resurrected and turned into a revenge machine over his mother?

3. Why do we have no firsthand account of what happened to Grey Wind?

4. What is Theon going to do with his life after being allowed to live over such a great character?

5. Is Robb's ghost going to rescue Sansa or Grey Wind's ghost going to rescue poor Sansa?

6. Why does Robb generate more discussion than any other character of this series does?

It's a testament to this series that I read after my favorite character being murdered 40% of the way into the story. If Jaime dies in book 6 or sansan is ended, I don't know how I'll force myself to keep reading

1. There needs to be tragedy and possibly make room for Jon being King in the North.

2. Where's his body and head?

3. We do, Arya saw them put several arrows/bolts in him.

4. Redeem himself in death.

5. No.

6. He doesn't, Dany is, I think girls/women like her because she supposedly represents a strong woman. The strongest female character is Arya, then Cat (even though she's a bitch to Jon). Arya is too young and Cat "too" old. Male readers are all over the place on favorite characters. Pretty obvious who my favorite character is.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ah Illyrio is lying then? Thanks for clearing that up. Now that you mention the battle at Pyke, I recall it.

Not at all. The High Septon did indeed do the honors for Jorah. When the latter was in his thirties, maybe beyond forty already, after Pyke, and with Robert telling him to because of his bravery at Pyke.

Which is a far cry from the ordinary way, which would see the knight be a page, a squire and then anointed as a knight as soon as he was an adult. None of which happened to Jorah.