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Blazfemur

[Spoilers All] Two Night's Watch/Their 'True' History; The Others' Purpose; TNK; Etc

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Just added to my theory on page 1:




Final Thought: The secret of activating human, to Other, lies in the blood. There's a reason they choose wildlings, and Craster. I believe it's first men blood, which flows in Stark veins, and most of the houses in the north that old nan mentions to Bran. There's a clue there, in that chapter, and she's telling Bran how the Others make Others. My opinion is that Craster had First Men blood, and that it's that same blood, that's a catalyst in activating the Other, in someone. That's why he was so protective over his daughters, because the blood must be as pure as can be, and that's the contract the Others had with Craster, and the other wildlings, that shared this blood bond. The secret to why and how the Craster debacle happened, lies in the purity of the blood. He protected his daughters for a reason. If any one of them got pregnant with someone else,that didnt have first men blood, and that baby was taken, the baby might not have turned Other, and then they would have come back to him for a reason why. One can further speculate, that those without FIrst Men Blood, turn wight. If any of that scene, the 13, is accurate, than not all of the 12 other lord commanders were alive, and yet, they are Other. Yet, if they had First Men blood, this relieves that stipulation. The secret isn't living body=Other; dead body=wight; the secret is First Men blood=Other, everyone else, living OR dead=Wight. Otherwise, they wouldnt have been so meticulous in choosing who would have received the Ice Gift. The common elements that tie int he mysteries of The Others, The Night's King, and wights, as well as Craster's children = First Men Blood.


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id would like to point out that every section (the little we have) that contained an Other, was in fact male. id also like to point out that the speculation of a female other, is speculation that was comprised by the Night's Watch that OVERTHREW the Night's King and then erased all his records. Finally, id like to point out, that beyond the one instance we have of a supposed breaking vow, which, again, is word of mouth by that Night's Watch, that The Others (apparently) are following the basic tennents. Again, the one instance he has of breaking, is word of mouth byt he very sect that overthrew him and erased all records that wouldve said otherwise. FInally, and then ill leave it be, because you very well might be right (again, keeping an open mind, little evidence to support, or contradict ANY of this) that the babies we've seen taken, were ALL male.

The sections we've seen that contained multiple Others only identified the gender of one of them, not the whole group.

I have a problem with the idea that there was no Night's Queen and it's all propaganda from LC 14. The King in the North, brother to Night's King, and Joramun the King Beyond the Wall helped take Night's King down. It's not all on LC 14. There were other men, entire armies involved in ending Night's King's reign. And someone was doing horrible things. It may not have been Night's King, but it stopped after he was dethroned. In order for your theory to be correct the conspiracy has to be much, much larger, and it certainly could have been. But that's a lot of men who might have actually seen Night's Queen. If there wasn't one, they need a reason to lie and say there was. Why support this 14th LC, who was not an LC at the time, and for KitN in particular why go against your own brother and risk kinslaying?

The babies we've seen taken were all male. But there undoubtedly babies in some of the Wildling camps that the Others have attacked. We have no way of knowing that the Others have no source of females. Craster is only one piece of the puzzle.

It's also rather a stretch to say that the Others are following anything, given how little GRRM has told us about them. Not saying you're wrong, because you very well may be right about this. Just that there's nothing in the text other than taking Craster's sons that remotely hints to us what the Others are about. Even that wouldn't be much help if not for the HBOops.

Oh, and in the OP you say Nan mentioned the Wildling selling daughters to the Others. I don't recall that. Can you provide a quote? I remember the Wildling women lay with the Others in the Long Night and sired terrible half-human children. Which is a bit off as women don't sire, but whatever. Don't remember anything about selling, but if the Wildings did sell their daughters to the Others and humans can be turned into Others, that rather puts a hole in the "no female Others" idea.

By the way, I like the idea that the First Men blood is the difference between wighting and Otherizing. That's an interesting possibility.

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to reiterate, Bran the bulder took credit for building a wall made of ice (supposedly). while i dont discredit the castles/forts on the wall, the wall itself is a blatant wall of what Others can openly manipulate. if any of the corruption of The Night's King and the New Night's Watch can be assumed and believed, why is it so out of the box to believe that someone took credit for the entirety of the wall?

the point of the wall, isn't eventhe basis of what i was trying to achieve here. the speculation, and especially using the language of "allegedly," as characters used to describe bran building the wall, hints that that may not be accurate as it is obviously quite the feat with something so large. again, it's allegedly. he may have done it, he may not have. my idea is, he created the castles and forts, but not the wall of ice itself. The Others, to me, did that.

Reiterating a dangling hypothesis does not make your argument any stronger.

You can assume whatever you wish, I was just pointing out that it is incorrect to list such assumptions as conclusions. And the reason for me to state this, is only because I've seen that you actually did some effort to differentiate yourself from the rest of crackpot speculative unfounded theories populating this board, so I assumed you did care about not having dangling hypothesis. But I'll take your reiteration as a proof that I was wrong.

Again, and i do appreciate the input, especially with the difficulty of a phone haha, discredit with evidence against my theory, without just putting it down. i want to build on this theory, or eliminate it just as easily, with given fact. my facts, were that a lot of people used "allegedly," and that the final construction, is something that the others can manipulate, with manmade castles built on top of it. The wall itself, ties in with the oath itself, and thus The Others building it or having had controlled it at one point, is essential.

First of all, you are the one making an hypothesis here, thus the burden of proof completely lies on you.
I am not making any claim here, there is a huge difference among saying that your hypothesis is false - which I did not claim at all - from arguing that your ''conclusions' are not based on evidence and thus only unproven speculation.
I disagree that your theory is based on facts. If anything, your theory is based on:
  • Arbitrarily deciding some factual indirect witnessing of events is false, more precisely you have arbitrarily chosen which information belonging to the myth are to be taken as truth from those that are falsehood

    i.e. when you state "There's also been, no evidence, book or otherwise, of a female Other" : why should I discredit your theory with evidence, when you don't provide evidence that disproves the existence of the female other that corrupted the Night's King as it was told in the myth? is it now legitimate to arbitrarily cherry picking facts in the books?

  • Arbitrarily interpreting the motivations of the particular night's watch oath that is sworn: you should provide evidence that justifies why you give this particular interpretation to the night's watch vows, when you do not apply the same criteria to the kings-guard vow: there is some overlapping among the two oaths: "They [kingsguard] are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children."
  • Even more speculation on events that have yet to happen and onto which there is absolutely no agreement they will happen at all, e.g. Melisandre's ritual
  • You reiterate the claim that there is ZERO evidence for female other, whereas the truth is different: you CLAIM the EVIDENCE represented by the myth IS FALSE. And pray excuses, but there is a huge difference among doubting that the myth is true from asserting that it is false on the bullets that are more convenient to your theory, and you provide absolutely no evidence for your claim.
  • An arbitrarily claim that Craster's wife has not blood of first men. Although I don't see why arguing this is helpful at all.
  • Lack of evidence against the rest of your speculations, which by the way IS NOT evidence for your speculations.
My apologies, but the use of the word allegedly is not a factual proof at all.
By definition of the word allegedly, it only implies that the claim is controversial, and there is absolutely nothing wrong to use such statement in respect to myths.
Facts you have disregarded:
- it is claimed that the wall is woven with magic spells to keep out the others
- it is confirmed that the wall possess magic doors that can be opened only by Night Watch members and crossed by all human beings going with them, but not by magical creatures like the others, e.g. Coldhands
Fallacies: (in addition to cherry picking information AND arbitrary claims passed as facts)
- others can manipulate ice is a no argument at all: human beings can manipulate ice as well and provided right environmental conditions they can have built the wall just like the others.
All in all, this is yet another crackpot theory based on speculations and no evidence. The heresy sub-forum is full of these claims on the others, you should checkout that.

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About the existence of female Others: Let's compare turning of Craster's son within the icehenge with beheading of the NW deserter within the stonehenge. We could see that there were 13 high Others (compared to the rider who brought the kid) and the highest of them all did the turning. They were all male, it seems, because the other 12 were blurry. Near Winterfell, there were Ned, Robb, Bran Stark, Jon Snow, Theon Greyjoy, Jory Cassel, Desmond. These are the names I found in the chapter. As we can see, they are all male. The highest of them - Ned Stark - did the beheading. No women took part in this ritual. Women were in Winterfell. So, following the same logic, and why wouldn't we since the Others are also a part of the northern culture and we saw that they originate from men, so their customs originate from men as well, we can conclude that if there are female Others, they will not be present at the turning ceremony.



I am not so sure that all blood of the FM can be turned into Others. Remember Sixskins chapter when he tried to skin change into a woman, but she later returned as a wight? It is clear that dead can be turned into wights.



Othor and Jafer Flowers were turned into wights. The origin of the former is unknown, the latter was from the Reach, so most likely of the Andal blood. Yet, nothing conclusive can be said about their blood being a reason for them being turned wight. All we know is that Benjen Stark never showed up. Therefore, I'd make this assumption. In order to become a wight one must be: dead or not of the FM blood or not a brother of the NW. However, if one is alive, blood of the FM AND a brother of the NW or his blood, one can be turned into an Other. If the blood of the FM was the only requirement the north beyond the Wall would be full of Others. Since we postulate they are also a NW, they can only turn those of the NW AND the right blood for the original NW - the FM. I'd go as far as to say that Starks get the high rank amongst the Others automatically. Hence, Benjen Stark is most probably ranging with the Others and Jon Snow will join them soon.



Who is the Great Other? It should be a God according to Mel, since the Great Other is a counterpart of R'hllor. But, I believe the name is confusing, because the Others should be the final NW protecting the realms of men from the Great Other, not their king, nor a leader. Their leader is TNK.



I would not like to overcomplicate things, but one should not exclude the Drowned God as a candidate for the Great Other. "What is dead may never die" are very interesting words and they fit the lore descriptions (Old Nan's stories) about destruction wrecked upon humanity during the Long Night. Patchface is talking about monsters under the water, survivors from the Hardhome area talk about "dead bodies in the water". Water and Ice are the same element in different temperatures. Bran saw darkness far beyond the Wall and terrible scary something there. Others cannot be that scary visually, because GRRM described them as beautiful in an aery way (paraphrasing). Also, everything under water is plunged into eternal darkness, so we can make a comparison between what is lurking beyond the veil of darkness and under the sea. So, I'd conclude that the Great Other is the god of darkness.


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All in all, this is yet another crackpot theory based on speculations and no evidence. The heresy sub-forum is full of these claims on the others, you should checkout that.

or, ill just continue on my own path and disregard everything you just said since youre clearly just hand-picking my choice of words and are disregarding the textual hints displayed throughout books 1-5. while you attempt to discredit what im trying to piece together, you fail to contribute fact that would disprove it, instead focusing on my choice of words. again, disregarded entirely.

modesty, ill acknowledge when i have opportunity later if we ever get off of phones today (lol)

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On the Others, I believe they are like the Drow. GRRM uses the term sidhe, which is elves or fairies in Irish folklore. Drow are dark elves with white hair that dwell underground in the AD&D universe. I think underground is an advanced society just like our own with good and bad folk. There's probably a social pecking order, and groups with different purposes just like above ground. Just because we see one group performing a ritual is not definitive proof that all Others are reliant on this form of reproduction. This could be a custom solely distinctive to them. It's obvious these 13 are different than the one who brought the babe. This seems to be a custom Craster has been practising for quite some time. Why are there only 13 of them? Does this indicate they have lifespans? And need to be replaced every so often? Why take their numbers from human sacrifice? Why not replenish from their own numbers? And of the theory they may have built the Wall, GRRM says they can work wonders with ice we can't imagine. Too little is known of the Others, and as to the "icehenge" it does not exist in the books. We have nothing but wild assumptions to make at this point.


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or, ill just continue on my own path and disregard everything you just said since youre clearly just hand-picking my choice of words and are disregarding the textual hints displayed throughout books 1-5. while you attempt to discredit what im trying to piece together, you fail to contribute fact that would disprove it, instead focusing on my choice of words. again, disregarded entirely.

modesty, ill acknowledge when i have opportunity later if we ever get off of phones today (lol)

What can I say, I think my line of thought was well argued while you clearly don't get the very basis of rationale and logic arguments.. so go on building your fan-fic then! :)

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What can I say, I think my line of thought was well argued while you clearly don't get the very basis of rationale and logic arguments.. so go on building your fan-fic then! :)

firstly, and lastly, all your line of "thought" did was downtalk everything displayed, without furthering any cause whatsoever. choosing to acknowledge the choice of words i used, and downtalking it, without providing any evidence of the contrary. for this reason you provided no contribution for, or against, this idea. your damn right ill continue, up until and including when im either proved right, or wrong, in the text or on the show. and whats more, is that im completely open to criticism and contrary, if you stated facts to back up your assumptions. you did nothing of the sort.

1) About the existence of female Others: Let's compare turning of Craster's son within the icehenge with beheading of the NW deserter within the stonehenge. We could see that there were 13 high Others (compared to the rider who brought the kid) and the highest of them all did the turning. They were all male, it seems, because the other 12 were blurry. Near Winterfell, there were Ned, Robb, Bran Stark, Jon Snow, Theon Greyjoy, Jory Cassel, Desmond. These are the names I found in the chapter. As we can see, they are all male. The highest of them - Ned Stark - did the beheading. No women took part in this ritual. Women were in Winterfell. So, following the same logic, and why wouldn't we since the Others are also a part of the northern culture and we saw that they originate from men, so their customs originate from men as well, we can conclude that if there are female Others, they will not be present at the turning ceremony.

2) I am not so sure that all blood of the FM can be turned into Others. Remember Sixskins chapter when he tried to skin change into a woman, but she later returned as a wight? It is clear that dead can be turned into wights.

3) Othor and Jafer Flowers were turned into wights. The origin of the former is unknown, the latter was from the Reach, so most likely of the Andal blood. Yet, nothing conclusive can be said about their blood being a reason for them being turned wight. All we know is that Benjen Stark never showed up. Therefore, I'd make this assumption. In order to become a wight one must be: dead or not of the FM blood or not a brother of the NW. However, if one is alive, blood of the FM AND a brother of the NW or his blood, one can be turned into an Other. If the blood of the FM was the only requirement the north beyond the Wall would be full of Others. Since we postulate they are also a NW, they can only turn those of the NW AND the right blood for the original NW - the FM. I'd go as far as to say that Starks get the high rank amongst the Others automatically. Hence, Benjen Stark is most probably ranging with the Others and Jon Snow will join them soon.

4) Who is the Great Other? It should be a God according to Mel, since the Great Other is a counterpart of R'hllor. But, I believe the name is confusing, because the Others should be the final NW protecting the realms of men from the Great Other, not their king, nor a leader. Their leader is TNK.

5) I would not like to overcomplicate things, but one should not exclude the Drowned God as a candidate for the Great Other. "What is dead may never die" are very interesting words and they fit the lore descriptions (Old Nan's stories) about destruction wrecked upon humanity during the Long Night. Patchface is talking about monsters under the water, survivors from the Hardhome area talk about "dead bodies in the water". Water and Ice are the same element in different temperatures. Bran saw darkness far beyond the Wall and terrible scary something there. Others cannot be that scary visually, because GRRM described them as beautiful in an aery way (paraphrasing). Also, everything under water is plunged into eternal darkness, so we can make a comparison between what is lurking beyond the veil of darkness and under the sea. So, I'd conclude that the Great Other is the god of darkness.

1) Because the figures were blurry, it's tough to confirm all male. however, i also cant correlate because of Ned's execution when none of the women were involved, that the Others were simply replicating an age-old ritual that maybe ned was re-enacting. while i do see the connection, i think it would be way too early to determine the logistics of said "ritual" so far. I do recognize the circle of men, the henges, and the sacred meaning of both however.

2) Yes, while sixskins has first men blood, he skinchanged into a woman. the woman, became wight. Sixskins skinchanging a female, wouldn't change the blood, or the makeup if (she) didn't have first men blood. Also, if the body is female, even if she's warged by a male, the logistics would still fall under the fact she's female (I'd like to assume, anyway. none of the blood makeup is changed, just the mentality and supposed 'possession' that warging encompasses).

3) my argument here, is that The Others supposedly predated The Night's Watch. i like the pre-requisites idea. So far (Night's "Queen" excluded), the requirements that APPEAR to be relevant, are, A) Male, b) first men blood (again, unconfirmed). Whether or not they MUST have been, or at one point, a member of the night's watch, is questionable. the 13 were all in black, and He was in fact a Lord Commander (all that is confirmed). The recruiter Other, on horseback, wasnt in black. in fact he seemed "lesser" amongst them. i like the pre-requisites idea though and i think we should expand on that.

4) while we cant confirm, yes, it appears TNK is the all-leader. His ability to turn Human to Other sets him apart from the other Others. Perhaps that's the stipulation: he's the leader, because he can Turn. Perhaps when the other Others attempt, all they get is Wight. Many possibilities to brainstorm and consider. Perhaps, like Thoros, Moqorro, and Melisandre, he's a "gifted" amongst the Others, in service to The Great Other, as they are servants of Rh'llor. I don't think, just like Rh'llor, that The Great Other will make an appearance at all. But I think TNK is it's harbinger.

5) it'd be interesting, if there was only one god, perceived in different elements to different people. but the drowned god cant be discounted, just like the 7. Perhaps the Great Other is submerged, and ended up being, The Drowned God. Who can tell, however, i never did see Aeron mention The Great Other, did he ever? In fact, the only people that are really anti-Great Other are those of Rh'llorian faith. Even the night's watch, they refer to the Others, and wights, and white walkers, they hardly ever mention "The Great Other." The Great Other could also be, a title. Perhaps because TNK can Turn (it's the only evidence we have of human becoming Other), he not only is their King, but also "The Great Other." It's also possible, that if the Queen does exist, she's the ONLY female, and that makes HER, The Great Other.

On the Others, I believe they are like the Drow. GRRM uses the term sidhe, which is elves or fairies in Irish folklore. Drow are dark elves with white hair that dwell underground in the AD&D universe. I think underground is an advanced society just like our own with good and bad folk. There's probably a social pecking order, and groups with different purposes just like above ground. Just because we see one group performing a ritual is not definitive proof that all Others are reliant on this form of reproduction. This could be a custom solely distinctive to them. It's obvious these 13 are different than the one who brought the babe. This seems to be a custom Craster has been practising for quite some time. Why are there only 13 of them? Does this indicate they have lifespans? And need to be replaced every so often? Why take their numbers from human sacrifice? Why not replenish from their own numbers? And of the theory they may have built the Wall, GRRM says they can work wonders with ice we can't imagine. Too little is known of the Others, and as to the "icehenge" it does not exist in the books. We have nothing but wild assumptions to make at this point.

There may be, or, there may not be. Everything displayed in my post, is based on what we've SEEN thus far. key words, thus far. You could be right, perhaps they can mate. Perhaps int he mating of an Other and human, they produce a human child (with first men blood, a la Starks and everyone of the North). Again, too early. I would conclude that yes, they have lifespans. If TNK turns babies, all we see are adults. There is a limit, to their "immortality." Growth occurs, as does age. Theyre not immortal. Replacements possibly, or they just become Other soldiers. It's also not just about human sacrifice, but what stipulations are within that sacrifice (i.e. the blood, why males, etc), thatll be the secret to unlocking the logistics of it all. and finally, yes my friend, thats all we can do is make assumptions. and thats all this thread is: is one big assumption. yet the assumptions HAVE to be made. dare to dream, my friend. dare to dream. and run with it. all you have to do, is speak your mind. he said people have figured out the ending and how things work apparently, why cant we?

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The episode in which we saw what occurs when Craster's Boys are collected was a bad move by HBO. There is nothing whatsoever to go on from the books to support that scene. Another of D&D's dastardly write-ins of something they've concocted. There is evidence of this in several other episodes. It would be a mistake to assume that's correct.



Thinking of what a sigil could be would be based on what represents a House. For The Others, it is all around them. I'd been thinking they'd stay with what's familiar. What can be more simple than a snowflake? Yet, they are not so simple. Each is unique, according to legend.


Basically, snowflakes are formed with six radials, like spokes, from a central hub. Each radial has an equal number of offshoots.



I'll go with The Night's King as a title for their leader (the hub). Rather than 12 subordinates, I'd suggest there are SIX who form a King's Council (for want of something better, but this seems appropriate. Each would be from a Great House, with the sub-branches being in an equal proportion between them.


It keeps to what's familiar and to the symmetry of a snowflake as their model with this council.



There needs to be some form of hierarchy and chain of command. No army operates without something in place. The Others do not show signs of random or anarchic behaviour, through their minions.


I see the next level down being White Walkers. I don't think it's accidental you hear that name or as a slur when you hear wights. There is some form of life in these, and they appear to be unquestionably loyal to The Others, and to The Night's King. Also, we've heard where some are mounted, marshalling those below this rank.


The Wights are the dead given a new life. However, they are without a soul. They appear to be completely subservient. These are the troops, the foot soldiers, the ground force.



Craster's Boys have a role to play. Its not just a trade off with Craster to allow him to stay. He was there for another purpose too, I've been wondering, like an agent working for The Others. (I'm in two minds about Craster, as you can guess.)


What I'm now wondering is what happens with Craster's Boys. I'm choosing not to be taken along by the scene HBO screened. There will be some purpose for them. However, I would think there is more to turning the boys than a split-second touch changing them.


Perhaps they enter some form of training, to become.....? I'd be guessing at something called The IceGuard?



There was something in legend regarding a female Other. I've not discounted there could be a presence, but in what capacity? Propagation of the species doesn't appear a prime concern when they can 'recruit' from those they kill.



I'm still pulling my thoughts together on The Others. There is so little to go on, other than what would be familiar to them.


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I only had time to briefly scan some of the posts after the OP, but one issue I saw in the OP concerns the Others building the Wall. If it is in fact true that there is magic in the Wall that prevents the others from crossing, why would the Others themselves put that magic in there? It seems to run counter to their goal to their purported goal.



You may have addressed this more fully later, my apologies if so, as I noticed there was some talk of two walls or something a little further down which I'm not sure I fully agree with but I'd have to take a more thorough look at.


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I only had time to briefly scan some of the posts after the OP, but one issue I saw in the OP concerns the Others building the Wall. If it is in fact true that there is magic in the Wall that prevents the others from crossing, why would the Others themselves put that magic in there? It seems to run counter to their goal to their purported goal.

You may have addressed this more fully later, my apologies if so, as I noticed there was some talk of two walls or something a little further down which I'm not sure I fully agree with but I'd have to take a more thorough look at.

here's the thing. and again, i realize as much as you do, the lack of actual evidence we have on this subject, but ill type what i feel i know, and by all means, let's hash it out if we can.

in regards to 2 walls, and their possibility: id discount it for now, we merely speculated that the night's oath's exact wording for one of the vows, is, "I am the watcher on the walls," as in plural. thats how the oath reads. again, means next to nothing right now.

i would interpret and suggest, the magic stopping the others and wights isn't the magic in the wall itself (aside from the blatant fact it's a WALL, of course), but rather, the magic held within the weirwood door and roots and all BENEATH the wall. the magic appears to be, if there is any, the same magic that would be present surrounding bloodraven's cave.

i would acknowledge, we havent seen any of them other than Coldhands try to approach yet. in accordance to this theorum, and the possibility of two night's watches, old and new, while Coldhands is a member of the NW, it's impossible to determine which of the two (again, strictly going by my theorum and if it's at all accurate).

my thoughts suggest a faction that can manipulate the cold, put up a structure specifically created out of cold. the logistics are there. i would acknowledge bran, constructing the castles and forts on it, after it was erected, then taking credit for the whole thing because all evidence to support the contrary was specifically destroyed (Sam to Jon, nights watch library)

the reasoning for casting up the wall, lies in the actual struggle of the night's king, bran, and the old wars with The Others and all the enemies. Therein lies the controversy of it all -- especially when the records were specifically destroyed and then re-written, after the events took place.

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Years pass, Winterfell grows, the 13th Lord Commander falls in love with Queen Other (who in my opinion is like a queen bee, the only female) and decides he's greater than just being king of winter and south of the Wall but both the others and the first men. His brother, the Stark in Winterfell, and Jorumon the King beyond the Wall (who may or may not have been an other) Join up to defeat him and wipe his name from history. Thus the Starks are no longer Kings of Winter just Kings in the North. And even though they have the Horn of Jorumon since the wiped his name from history the Starks (and everyone else to include the Free Folk) begin to forget.

I've lately started thinking along the same lines. May haps the female other is the Great Other.

Don't think the Others bred with the First Men, it was the CotF who are physical, natural beings that leave skeletons. When Sam killed the other, it melted. Makes me think that their closer to elementals.*

*I'm not taking into account the show that has a son of Craster converted to an other, even though that may haps be what happens. However where did the first others come from before the Long Night if they're converted humans?

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GRRM's idea for The Wall is inspired by Hadrian's Wall. Did you know there was a secondary wall, further north? It's well worth paying a visit up there because there's so much to discover. (Some of the best raves I've been to are up around the borders. Once you see the region, you'll know why.) I wouldn't dismiss the presence of another wall just yet.



Why have another wall? Walls are significant in marking territory. Often not to protect those whose wall it is as deter any raiders from thinking about storming it. Protection and deterrent are not the same thing even though they contribute to a similar goal.



The Wall everyone refers to marks the border between the realm of Man and the north beyond. It serves to keep whatever resides beyond the wall, to the north. We know that at least one gate has magic. Only NW Brothers can open it. Only then can anyone else come through, in either direction. (Sam bringing Gilly and baby through - Sam seeing Bran's Gang on their way North.)



Another wall would serve a similar purpose, to keep whatever resides to its south. Effectively, both define the realm of Wildlings, who are a mixed bunch of races and species. This one will have different magic, if any is indeed necessary that far north.



Something else about a wall further north. It isn't likely to be seen as readily as its southern counterpart. It would appear invisible, or, rather, indistinguishable from its surroundings, giving the appearance of no wall being there. Only when days are longer and snowstorms less driven would it become visible. (Remember - Arctic and Antarctic conditions during either's winter months. Visibility is inside inches at times due to extreme wind and ice-storms.)


I would imagine The Others use surroundings as a guide to building defences. They would purposely build to look indistinguishable as it is what they know. The same would apply for any castles or housing structures too. The psychology of it is simple and effective: What can't be seen can't be attacked, in theory.


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GRRM's idea for The Wall is inspired by Hadrian's Wall. Did you know there was a secondary wall, further north? It's well worth paying a visit up there because there's so much to discover. (Some of the best raves I've been to are up around the borders. Once you see the region, you'll know why.) I wouldn't dismiss the presence of another wall just yet.

Why have another wall? Walls are significant in marking territory. Often not to protect those whose wall it is as deter any raiders from thinking about storming it. Protection and deterrent are not the same thing even though they contribute to a similar goal.

The Wall everyone refers to marks the border between the realm of Man and the north beyond. It serves to keep whatever resides beyond the wall, to the north. We know that at least one gate has magic. Only NW Brothers can open it. Only then can anyone else come through, in either direction. (Sam bringing Gilly and baby through - Sam seeing Bran's Gang on their way North.)

Another wall would serve a similar purpose, to keep whatever resides to its south. Effectively, both define the realm of Wildlings, who are a mixed bunch of races and species. This one will have different magic, if any is indeed necessary that far north.

Something else about a wall further north. It isn't likely to be seen as readily as its southern counterpart. It would appear invisible, or, rather, indistinguishable from its surroundings, giving the appearance of no wall being there. Only when days are longer and snowstorms less driven would it become visible. (Remember - Arctic and Antarctic conditions during either's winter months. Visibility is inside inches at times due to extreme wind and ice-storms.)

I would imagine The Others use surroundings as a guide to building defences. They would purposely build to look indistinguishable as it is what they know. The same would apply for any castles or housing structures too. The psychology of it is simple and effective: What can't be seen can't be attacked, in theory.

You made my day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall

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I've wondered what would be an appropriate title for the leader of The Others. As usual, one stares you right in the face.


Night's King is borrowed from elsewhere. The King of Winter seems to link back to origins of The Starks, and a time before Winterfell.


The name of The Others' territory is The Land of Always Winter. A full title would be The King of the Land of Always Winter, which begins to match the mouthful used elsewhere. Shorten it, what can we make that's sense. The Always Winter King sounds a bit clumsy. Then I began looking at a logic 'family' name. It's a kin of Winterfell as well, which would seem to possess a certain irony.


How does this sound? WINTERLAND KING. It clearly identifies the character.



The link with Winterfell relates to the time when The Winter-lands did fall to the realm of Man. Perhaps the decisive battle of that ancient war, thousands upon thousands of years ago, was at Winterfell. It seems very likely to name the site (and the building that was later built) would be as significant and as simple as that.


There is a well-known site that seems to have been one of many battles GRRM has used as fact-bases. It is marked, today, with a structure on the site. Bannochburn. If anyone needs to know how a smaller army outnumbered emerges victorious, this is essential reading.


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I don't live too far from that area. Some time ago, I did my own family's tree, which includes branches in Scotland, and in Ireland. That took me on a journey through the past like no other I've done. Up around the area to the north of Hadrian's Wall is magnificent country. Finding out there was another wall is a revelation when Hadrian's Wall takes all of the limelight. I know what George was seeing, and where references are in the books.

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Who is the Great Other? It should be a God according to Mel, since the Great Other is a counterpart of R'hllor. But, I believe the name is confusing, because the Others should be the final NW protecting the realms of men from the Great Other, not their king, nor a leader. Their leader is TNK.

Mel has a track record of getting things wrong and changing her tune. Somehow, I think she'll be discovered as a charlatan, regarding R'hllor. However, she has knowledge of magic. I would tend to be drawn to a part-trained sorceress, quitting before she's mastered all of The Arts Of Magic.

One mistake she makes time and again is with R'hllor and the counter-deity. The Lord of Light is R'hllor, therefore The Lord of Dark must be the counter-deity. But no one says this counter-deity's name, for good reason. One can be made to fit whatever purpose a charlatan needs. Light does not require flame. Does a firefly have an internal combustion source? It is natural occurring, not flame. Nature has more examples too, like fish. (Not GloFish as they're genetically modified.) Certain fish produce a fluorescent protein, which magically glows in the dark depending on what could be like a 'blush-response'. Therefore, light does not require flame.

Dark does not require cold. To make a connection between Dark and cold is preposterous, and an example of bending shapes to fit whatever one's decided. Further indication that Mel is more likely a charlatan priestess.

So, putting the proverbial 2's together, considering that winter regions have approximate equals between endless days and endless nights, given that ancient man found different gods to worship..... What did I arrive at? A pair of major deities. God of Days; God of Nights. In and around those can be other subordinate deities. God of Days does look on a parallel with The Lord of Light. God of Nights does seem to match the appropriately un-named Lord of Dark. (Great Other sounds too much like making things fit.)

How does one make their deity appear more powerful? Man decides to make the differences dramatic. Practices associated with worship start to become part of the name's qualifiers. The Heart of Fire. (Stannis adopts a fiery heart as his new sigil.) This one is the more interesting - God of Flame and Shadow. How very yin-yang! Incorporate opposites and very ambiguous at that. Is 'flame' the dominant and 'shadow' the subordinate?

Of course, certain words suffer in translation, and some find saying certain names confusing when no parallel in their own tongue exists. Thus, Lord of Light (from Essos) becomes Red God (in Westeros).

Ulitmately, it's down to one basic saying. 'My god is better than your god.' To which, the reply is...? 'Prove it'. then you begin a holy war!

Only in Myths and Legends do Gods ever battle each other. Always with super-human feats.

Myths and Legends are well-known as handed-down tales re-told, and in each re-telling and hearing a change may occur. It's a long drawn out Chinese Whisper, effectively.

"Send reinforcements. We're going to advance." - "Send three-and-four pence. We're going to a dance."

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To make a connection between Dark and cold is preposterous, and an example of bending shapes to fit whatever one's decided.

Yeah, not that science discovered there is any kind of relation among electromagnetic waveforms and high temperatures, or that light bulbs work on that principle.

There is even this neat fact on black-holes.

Oh, but Melisandre doesn't know about that. Maybe she doesn't know about glowing fishes and fireflies as well.

ETA: The latter part of your sentence is really funny, considered what you [plural] are making here.

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