R+L=J v100

[Ser Duncan the Small]

I think his entire arc in ADWD is : JON WILL BE KING SOMEDAY AND HERE'S HOW IT WILL GO (minus the stabbing). DEAL WITH IT, PEASANTS. <--so spoke (wrote?)Martin

Jon will make the hard decision without hesitation. He will take responsibility for it all. He knows it's not about doing what he wants, look at sending his best man Sam to Oldtown. He didn't want to do that, I have no doubt it was tough for him to decide, yet he made that call on his own cause he knew it was for the good of the Watch as a whole, now and in the future.

Side note, Have we had any Samwell Tarly-garyen theories? I fell like his character deserves a crackpot dragon

[BearQueen87]

Jon will make the hard decision without hesitation. He will take responsibility for it all. He knows it's not about doing what he wants, look at sending his best man Sam to Oldtown. He didn't want to do that, I have no doubt it was tough for him to decide, yet he made that call on his own cause he knew it was for the good of the Watch as a whole, now and in the future.

Side note, Have we had any Samwell Tarly-garyen theories? I fell like his character deserves a crackpot dragon

Sam the Slayer is a Dragon? Awesome. I do think he'll be King Jon's Maester though...

[Ser Duncan the Small]

Sam the Slayer is a Dragon? Awesome. I do think he'll be King Jon's Maester though...

Deep down inside he knew how to use that dragonglass......

I'll leave the rest to be realized by all

[stateofdissipation]

At least Dayne did, or else he wouldn't be sad.

Are you referring to the SSM where he says that if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey? That one is unnecessary for explaining the actions of the KG, as they state it themselves, in-text: "we are Kingsguard, we swore a vow".

I've been around since thread 18 or so, and while I can remember which issues have been discussed, I am totally unable to refer to a particular thread or post. Generally, the issues with Aegon's presence are:

- logistics and timeframe of smuggling Aegon from KL to ToJ (why travel across the whole continent when a ship to Essos is right at hand just to put both your eggs in the same basket, the involvement of Elia and servants)

- Ned thinking Aegon dead but still considering the KG explanation of their presence satisfactory and not detracting from them being shining examples of KG

- convoluted presence of two plot-important mysteries in the same location (because if Jon is not legit, he is still R+L)

- zero text hints (nothing to be tied to the story of the Pisswater Prince or anything else Aegon-related)

- "dragons true and false" and "cloth dragon on poles" aka the mummer's dragon hint at a pretender some time in the story, and if it's not fAegon, then whom?

At least Dayne did, or else he wouldn't be sad

If Ned is there Rhaegar, Dayne's friend, will not be coming.

Arthur had also been remiss in his duties.

Jamie turned to Meryn Trant. "Ser you have been remiss in teaching our new brothers their duties."

"What duties," said Meryn Trant defensively.

"Keeping the king alive. How many monarchs have you lost since I left the city? Two, is it!" aSoS BG page 274

Are you referring to the SSM where he says that if Rhaegar gave them an order, they would obey?

No referring to the one that asks why the kingsguard were guarding the tower and GRRM's answer.

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

The one that says kingsguard do not get to make up their own orders.

That one is unnecessary for explaining the actions of the KG, as they state it themselves, in-text: "we are Kingsguard, we swore a vow"

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--aGoT page 410

or something like that that is less supportive of the assertion.

- logistics and timeframe of smuggling Aegon from KL to ToJ (why travel across the whole continent when a ship to Essos is right at hand just to put both your eggs in the same basket, the involvement of Elia and servants)

600 miles from KL to ToJ. Westeros is 3000 miles from the wall to Dorne. The ToJ was on the way to Aegon's family.

- Ned thinking Aegon dead but still considering the KG explanation of their presence satisfactory and not detracting from them being shining examples of KG

Yet these were no ordinary three.--aGoT page 409

- convoluted presence of two plot-important mysteries in the same location (because if Jon is not legit, he is still R+L)

or Bran, Jon, Ned, Catelyn, Jamie, Cersei, and Tyrion together in the same location at the start of book one...

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.--GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

- zero text hints (nothing to be tied to the story of the Pisswater Prince or anything else Aegon-related)

like zero hints about the kingsguard at the tower, other than "no ordinary three."

- "dragons true and false" and "cloth dragon on poles" aka the mummer's dragon hint at a pretender some time in the story, and if it's not fAegon, then whom?

We may find out in a year or two.

[MtnLion]

I recognize that it's natural to assume Lyanna was at the tower, given the way the memory is presented through Ned's fever dream. I'm not sure that makes it a sure thing. Is there something more substantial that confirms the idea?

Either way, I don't see how Lyanna's presence or absence would change the fact that, if Aegon was alive, then KG activity almost by definition starts to look like a big hint that he was on the scene.

Or, it is a big hint that Jon is legitmate, and Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Apparently Lyanna being at the tower is no secret, it is specified in the App (see my signature for the quote).

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory, because he is unable to get a lifelike image of his friends. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned. The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay and protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Reading these three statements, The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[anonnyscouse]

Dream Con

"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

ToJ Con

The question has been asked and answered

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Time of birth is not established

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks. and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.---aGoT page 409

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. .---aGoT page 410

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, silver lady, nor have I ever lost a babe." Mirri Maz Duur replied.--aGoT page 650

"That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."- AFfC p. 21

Lyanna ran off Con

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.--GRRM

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/

Polygamy Con

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/2997/

Rhaegar was not a king and did not have dragons.

Direwolf Con

One man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and one skinchanger in a thousand could be a greenseer.--aSoS chapter 9

Ned's children are wargs. It is not a Stark trait. All Starks exhibiting the trait come from Ned at least reportedly.

One more:

Timeline con: R+L says Eddard can't be Jon's father because the timeline is wrong for that. Yet even Robert, who was like a brother to Ned and who knew all of Ned's movements before KL (so would know where Ned was 9 months before Jon was born) believed it true, Jon Arryn was like a father and as far as we know never cast doubt on Jon's identity. Varys and LF who made it their job to see every possible question never doubted it. Surely as LF planned his chaos he might have looked at Jon if there was any question about age to answer?

[Ygrain]

One more:

Timeline con: R+L says Eddard can't be Jon's father because the timeline is wrong for that. Yet even Robert, who was like a brother to Ned and who knew all of Ned's movements before KL (so would know where Ned was 9 months before Jon was born) believed it true, Jon Arryn was like a father and as far as we know never cast doubt on Jon's identity. Varys and LF who made it their job to see every possible question never doubted it. Surely as LF planned his chaos he might have looked at Jon if there was any question about age to answer?

You mean, Ned let Robert read his diary about his travel from the Vale to the North while Robert went to gather his banners from the Stormlands?

Try harder.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

All those lovely colours! What do they mean?

Timeline con: R+L says Eddard can't be Jon's father because the timeline is wrong for that.

Oh, is it? Who says that?

[Ser Duncan the Small]

You mean, Ned let Robert read his diary about his travel from the Vale to the North while Robert went to gather his banners from the Stormlands?

Try harder.

Agreed, though sheesh that seemed harsh. Robert doesn't know what Wylla was like. Though Ned does see fit to tell him about it, so maybe he does talk to him about his time going North? Or he just has to explain about where this baby came from

[anonnyscouse]

You mean, Ned let Robert read his diary about his travel from the Vale to the North while Robert went to gather his banners from the Stormlands?

Try harder.

Weren't they both at the Trident, at what point did they join forces? At what point would Ned get Wylla/Ashara/another pregnant for Jon to be the right age? There's obviously a possibility that the timeline fits, because there are too many suspicious minds with no love for Ned (Varys/LF/Lannisters) for it to be completely impossible but accepted in Westeros.

[Kingmonkey]

'Sides, if you want to break a trope, you must first build it.

Bingo! Can we haz this comment go in the page 1 stuff plz?

Yes, ugly duckling bastard turns out to be a prince is a cliché. Yes, GRRM has a well documented dislike of fantasy clichés. No, that does not mean that Jon turning out to be the son of Rhaegar is unlikely, it just means it's unlikely that GRRM will give Jon a fairy-tale ending based on it. I'll be very disappointed if he does.

How about Stateofdissipation's "dead-horse trope" comment? Well here's the thing: there's no calculus of ideas, no empirical measure of memes, no literatometer that can be used to determine this. What declaring something a dead-horse trope means is that person so declaring sees no originality or value in even subverting the trope. If someone else does, judge them on their results not their choice to do so; maybe they saw something you didn't. William Golding's The Princess Bride is pretty much entirely made up of dead-horse tropes yet told in such a radically different way that it becomes fascinating and delightful. The dead-horse trope argument should make us suspicious of R+L=J, sure, but it's just not counter evidence -- that can only come from the author.

If, as most of us suspect, Jon is the son of Rhaegar, and arguably the legitimate king of Westeros, that doesn't mean he'll ever sit on the iron throne. The events of R/L, Robert's Rebellion and the ToJ are central to the song of fire and ice because they are the trigger to the events of the books. It does not follow that Jon has to become king; it does not even follow that Jon's birth need necessarily have any bearing on his ultimate fate. Not one of the three kings who've sat on the Iron Throne through the books so far has done so because of right of birth, and I don't see it being exactly the most un-GRRMish thing to end the series with a "So you thought that being the true-born king has any bearing on whether you get to rule? How cute."

[anonnyscouse]

All those lovely colours! What do they mean?

Oh, is it? Who says that?

I made a thread a few days ago that I believed Ned was Jon's father and I was told that the timeline does not fit for it to be possible, apparently the only timeline that fits is L+R.

[Maester Crypt]

A question for those who know a lot on the subject of R+L=J and the PTWP.

When does Rhaegar look to Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy? Tourney at Harrenhal or after Aegons birth?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Agreed, though sheesh that seemed harsh. Robert doesn't know what Wylla was like. Though Ned does see fit to tell him about it, so maybe he does talk to him about his time going North? Or he just has to explain about where this baby came from

My take is: Ned did not tell Robert about Jon at all. Until the day he had to.

Weren't they both at the Trident, at what point did they join forces? At what point would Ned get Wylla/Ashara/another pregnant for Jon to be the right age? There's obviously a possibility that the timeline fits, because there are too many suspicious minds with no love for Ned (Varys/LF/Lannisters) for it to be completely impossible but accepted in Westeros.

They met for the Battle of the Bells, then Eddard and Jon A. married the Tully girls. Then we don't know for many months and again they were together at the Trident.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

A question for those who know a lot on the subject of R+L=J and the PTWP.

When does Rhaegar look to Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy? Tourney at Harrenhal or after Aegons birth?

After Aegon's birth. He had believed Aegon would be TPTWP according to Dany's HoTUvision, he must have later thought that it does not make sense, Elia is from Dorne, with the Sun and after all, the Dragon must have 3 heads. I imagine he thought that having to first complete his Dragon, and his lady wife not being able to bear more children(presumably) meant he must seek another, Lyanna being one he may have desired acording to HH, one of Ice was probably what popped into his mind then boom

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I made a thread a few days ago that I believed Ned was Jon's father and I was told that the timeline does not fit for it to be possible, apparently the only timeline that fits is L+R.

Could you link to it? I'll see for myself then. Timeline might be wrong in many possible ways. Most people don't grab that it is roundabout 2 years from the Grand Tourney at Harrenhal to Jon's birth.

eta: Just in case you return to read this, @anonnyscouse, this SSM 1040 Chronology is key to solve some of the stuff you are struggling with.

A question for those who know a lot on the subject of R+L=J and the PTWP.

When does Rhaegar look to Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy? Tourney at Harrenhal or after Aegons birth?

After Aegon's birth. Nearly a year after Harrenhal.

eta: he learned he could not have any more children by his wife Elia and since he believed he needed a third (three heads of the dragon) then ventured to run away with Lyanna.

[BearQueen87]

A question for those who know a lot on the subject of R+L=J and the PTWP.

When does Rhaegar look to Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy? Tourney at Harrenhal or after Aegons birth?

Depends on who you ask. I don't think it was HH, but it was after Aegon's birth when he learned that Elia couldn't have any more children. Believing that he still needed a third head for his dragon collection, R and L (who have been in communication all along) decide to run off together. As this is happening and they are married and moving down to the TOJ, R realizes that his son with L would be Ice + Fire, and BOOM. TPTPW.

Unmasked Lurker will now be along to write a much longer version of that, but that's my down and dirty take.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

My take is: Ned did not tell Robert about Jon at all. Until the day he had to.

They met for the Battle of the Bells, then Eddard and Jon A. married the Tully girls. Then we don't know for many months and again they were together at the Trident.

Makes sense. That's another thing I'd like to k now, how did that conversation go, and when? During the Greyjoy Rebellion perhaps? When Ned and Robert reunite

[stateofdissipation]

The current Starks have a Blackwood ancestor. Brynden Rivers had a Blackwood mother, and he was also a skinchanger. Coincidence? Perhaps.. But I find it highly suspicious..

Then at least add the Blackwood...

Bloodraven is a known warg and his mother was a Blackwood.

Ned's and Lyanna's unknown mother,or grandmother could have been a Blackwood..

One man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and one skinchanger in a thousand could be a greenseer.--aSoS chapter 9

Ned's children have a greater than 1 in a thousand chance.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Makes sense. That's another thing I'd like to k now, how did that conversation go, and when? During the Greyjoy Rebellion perhaps? When Ned and Robert reunite

I always imagined that Ned would make a stop at KL to tell Robert about Lyanna's death, and that Ned would mention it shortly there, perhaps.