Ukraine 12: All Russia wants is a little "Жилая площадь"

[daskool]

Re: daskool

Russia is free to protect her national interests, but she cannot invade her neighbor to do so. It beggars imagination to consider just what type of international law would permit such a thing.

I asked in a previous post but you didn't answer. By what authority does Russia claim control of Ukrain's land and foreign policy? Yes, Ukrain joining NATO will indeed be disadvantageous to Russia. That gives Russia the right to invade? Is that your logic? So if Mexico allows Russia to set up a sea port in Tijuana the U.S. government can legitimately invade Mexico?

There have been no credible reports of ethnic cleansing from Kiev against ethnic Russians.

And even if there had been ethnic cleansing, the proper reaction would certainly look very different from what took place in Crimea and now in western Ukrain, which look more like land grab than protecting ethnic Russians.

The United States has long had a policy of hemispheric dominance, i.e. it will NEVER allow any other great power to challenge it's authority in the western hemisphere. Sucks if you're Cuba or Venezuela of course but it's been settled US foreign policy since the end of WW2. Similarly Russia has decided that it will never allow, what it sees as, an anti Russian military alliance to set up shop on it's border. They couldn't stop the Baltic nations joining NATO as they were far too week to do much about it at the time, but Ukraine is the line they've decided to draw in the sand. So by what authority? By the authority of being a great power I guess, by the same authority that the United States calls on when making it's many, many decisions to interfere in the sovereign affairs of other countries. I should stress that I'm not apologizing for Russia's actions simply stating the reality, this is how great powers act and we should make our decisions of how to respond on that basis. The alternative is we go to war with Russia.

[snake]

Snake,

If Russia gets an "East Ukraine" as a friendly State or a new provence why on Earth wouldn't the remainder of Ukraine join NATO and the EU (where the majority of the Ukrainian gas deposits are) to thwart further Russian expansionism if, as you say, Russia would never attack a NATO member nation?

You say Russia would never "attack" a NATO member State. Does "attack" include arming violent seperatist rebel movements in the targeted State?

Scot,

Russia is looking for a more autonomous East within a Ukraine federation. Such an arrangement would allow the East to veto any attempt at joining the EU or NATO.

Attack means invade. They might well cause trouble if they felt it was in their interests to do so but after this mess they are certainly not going to want any more friction with the West.

[Recovering forum addict]

Yes, they certainly don't want any more friction. That's why they've started to regularly violate the airspace of an EU member state and why Putin threatens Barroso to 'take Kiev in two weeks'.

The current Russian government thrives on friction. They have been building an atmosphere of nationalism and paranoia for more than a decade, they need foreign bogeymen to keep it going.

[snake]

Yes, they certainly don't want any more friction. That's why they've started to regularly violate the airspace of an EU member state and why Putin threatens Barroso to 'take Kiev in two weeks'.

The current Russian government thrives on friction. They have been building an atmosphere of nationalism and paranoia for more than a decade, they need foreign bogeymen to keep it going.

Of course they don't. Once this business with Ukraine is settled of course they'll want to normalize relations as best they can.

[The Fallen]

I think the point you're failing to grasp is that Russia is not a totalitarian dictatorship guided by an ideology seeking world domination. So what would Russia do in scenario A, B or C? Well think what the United States would do and you have your answer. She will protect her interests.

If China were to fund a people's revolution in Mexico installing a virulently anti American regime who wanted to join a Chinese led military and economic alliance what would America do? Sit back and congratulate them on their democratic decision no doubt.

Leave the cold war attitudes behind and deal with Russia as she is now not how she was 50 years ago.

The US would be wrong to invade Mexico in said scenario. The US can impose tariffs or stop all trade with Mexico. Ultimately, Mexico can do whatever they want. This isn't the 1800s.

And, again, why is Russia so afraid of NATO? They aren't communist anymore. They don't threaten the US or it's major European allies. The US and said allies have no reason to invade or attack Russia. So why the fear?

And you admonish about Cold War era views about Russia, yet the views you espouse while defending Russia's actions harken back more 50 years - to imperial and Soviet era Russia.

[Ghjhero]

Russia is supposedly threatening Ukraine with the use of nuclear weapons; http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-threatened-nuclear-attack-says-ukraine-defence-minister-267842

[Altherion]

Russia is supposedly threatening Ukraine with the use of nuclear weapons; http://www.newsweek.com/russia-has-threatened-nuclear-attack-says-ukraine-defence-minister-267842

The Ukrainian ministers aren't even trying to be serious anymore; this is not so much war propaganda as it is pure silliness. He either made it up entirely or his "unofficial channels" consist of the Russian court jesters (i.e. Zhirinovsky et al) who routinely make outlandish statements of this sort.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Snake,

Of course they don't. Once this business with Ukraine is settled of course they'll want to normalize relations as best they can.

In 2008 people said the same damn thing about Russia's behavior toward its former Soviet neighbors after it invaded Georgia and created South Ossetia.

I don't believe there have been serious threats to use tactical nukes, they don't need them. Further, the Russians have to know that if they use tactical nukes in an offensive capacity in this fight in Ukraine all bets are off and the entire pasture of shit will hit the fan.

[Stannisaurus2]

Didn't Georgians attack first during the Olympics?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Stannis,

The Russians bated them into attacking and everyone said that after they'd dealt with the Georgian Military Putin and Co. would settle down. Now they've annexed Crimea and invaded Eastern Ukraine.

Remember all Hitler wanted was to remiltitarize the Rheinland.

[snake]

Snake,

In 2008 people said the same damn thing about Russia's behavior toward its former Soviet neighbors after it invaded Georgia and created South Ossetia.

I don't believe there have been serious threats to use tactical nukes, they don't need them. Further, the Russians have to know that if they use tactical nukes in an offensive capacity in this fight in Ukraine all bets are off and the entire pasture of shit will hit the fan.

Russia didn't create South Ossetia. They helped them expel an aggressive Georgia who was trying to swallow them up through force of arms.

But that was then. If a peace can be obtained soon then we shall see the easing of tensions. Will still be a lot of mistrust but no one wants a new Cold War. It's bad for business.

[The Marquis de Leech]

But that was then. If a peace can be obtained soon then we shall see the easing of tensions. Will still be a lot of mistrust but no one wants a new Cold War. It's bad for business.

Certain military-industrial complexes would love a new Cold War. It's great for business.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Snake,

Putin seems to be thriving on his bullying attitude back home. He's going after mothers of dead Russian Soldiers calling them "Fascists" because they dare to contradict him publicly and say their sons died fighting in Ukraine.

This is the behavior of a guy focused on "business"?

[snake]

Certain military-industrial complexes would love a new Cold War. It's great for business.

For them it would be but they still got to get nations to increase their military budgets and it seems Canada won't be, even though the US will be asking everyone to during the upcoming NATO summit. I doubt many EU countries will either with their struggling economies that are about to get even worse.

[snake]

Snake,

Putin seems to be thriving on his bullying attitude back home. He's going after mothers of dead Russian Soldiers calling them "Fascists" because they dare to contradict him publicly and say their sons died fighting in Ukraine.

This is the behavior of a guy focused on "business"?

Yup. Once Russia's national interests are secured he will work on rebuilding business ties I would think. And maintaining his power base of course. He's more popular now than he's ever been.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Snake,

Tensions began escalating in April 2008.[44] Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages on 1 August, drawing sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region.[44][45][46] Georgia launched a large-scale military operation against South Ossetia during the night of 7-8 August 2008,[3] recapturing most of Tskhinvali.[18] The Georgian government said it was responding to attacks on its villages in South Ossetia,[47] and Russia was moving non-peacekeeping units into the country.[48] Russia officially deployed units of the Russian 58th Army and airborne troops into South Ossetia on 8 August, launching air strikes against targets in Georgia proper.[49][50] Russia claimed that its aim was "peace enforcement".[51] Russian and Ossetian forces battled Georgian forces throughout South Ossetia for four days, with the heaviest fighting in Tskhinvali.[18][emphasis added]

The Georgians were bated into attacking and the Russians took full advantage.

Putin has explicitly said that the breakup of the Soviet Union was a "tragedy". Putin's not a communist. He's a Soviet nationalist. He wants to reassemble the Soviet empire by hook or crook. He care's about business in as much as it facilitates that goal. Putin is fucking dangerous and you're kidding yourself if you think he will stop at Ukraine.

[Stannisaurus2]

Alright I have to ask: If Putin can be compared to Hitler because he basically thinks that he can do anything he wants to Russia's neighboring countries (and calling him such for that reason is fine by me), what does that make the U.S. who treat half the planet in the same way?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Stannis,

Yes, the "if the US does it why can't we" defense. Who here is defending US adventurism in Iraq or elsewhere? Is the US annexing chunks of other nations?

[daskool]

Snake,

The Georgians were bated into attacking and the Russians took full advantage.

Putin has explicitly said that the breakup of the Soviet Union was a "tragedy". Putin's not a communist. He's a Soviet nationalist. He wants to reassemble the Soviet empire by hook or crook. He care's about business in as much as it facilitates that goal. Putin is fucking dangerous and you're kidding yourself if you think he will stop at Ukraine.

Surely you mean Russian imperialist, being a Soviet by definition means you're a communist?

Honestly Scot I reckon you've ridden the whole Putin is the new Hitler/Stalin horse into the ground already.

[Stannisaurus2]

double post