RottenAppleFossoway Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I don't consider her evil, but the fact that she doesn't know that the Old Gods are on her side is a problem. Burning the godswood at Storm's End? And the branches of weirwood after Castle Black? That's just hurtful.Are the Old Gods on her side though?The only definitive proof we have of this is the alliance between the CoTF and the First Men to stop the Others and that was a really long time ago. The CoTF might remember the details, and Bran or BR may have (or will) discover the details of the alliance, but generally, the people of Westeros have largely forgotten what it actually entailed. Even most of the northerners don't seem to understand the nature of their own chosen deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Second To Last Dragon Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 mel's heart is in the right place. unfortunately she's doing it all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Honestly, I don't believe there are any gods at all. I think the religions came about to explain the magic in the world. People can see the past, present and future...but it's not limited to the followers of R'hollor, we see it across all religions. People can perform 'miracles'...but again, it's not limited to one religion, but all of them. But to me, a person was able to see something in the weirwood trees...and it became the Old Gods. One day, someone saw the future in the flames, and it became R'hollor. Same with the Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impoverished Noble Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Don't care One-shot kill your traitor usurper brother winning a desperate war (wich include keep being alive) you have almost no hope to win, magicfucking a ginger version of Irina Shayk Your argument is invalid/b/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I don't consider her evil, but the fact that she doesn't know that the Old Gods are on her side is a problem. Burning the godswood at Storm's End? And the branches of weirwood after Castle Black? That's just hurtful. The Old Gods have no power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The Old Gods have no power. I spotted the troll! :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Maybe, but there is no proof that they have power. Bran can use the weirwood network, but he is no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impoverished Noble Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The Old Gods have no power.No gods have power. Thus far all magic we've seen has been ritualistic in nature. The magic comes from the ritual not some deity in the sky looking down making sure to bless their followers. The gods are an anthropomorphized explanation to the magic seen in the world of ASoIaF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Are the Old Gods on her side though?The only definitive proof we have of this is the alliance between the CoTF and the First Men to stop the Others and that was a really long time ago. The CoTF might remember the details, and Bran or BR may have (or will) discover the details of the alliance, but generally, the people of Westeros have largely forgotten what it actually entailed. Even most of the northerners don't seem to understand the nature of their own chosen deities.She wants to fight the Others.So do they. And since the case for Jon being Azor Ahai is building, and Jon is also a champion of the Old Gods cause, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Maybe, but there is no proof that they have power. Bran can use the weirwood network, but he is no god. They sent the direwolves to the Stark children. ("they were meant to have them") They give powers of prophecy to greendreamers like Jojen Reed The magic of skinchanging is sourced to the weirwoods The First Men were taught skinchanging and adopted the Old Gods as a part of the Pact. The only religion not confirmed to have actual magic is the Faith of the Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narvi Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I don't understand why people wouldn't want Jons POV in the next book. How else will you get insight into the free folk and the nights watch. She's not evil but she's a zealot which means everything that she says and thinks is biased. No different from the Christian inquisitions or what's happening in the Middle East right at this moment. When people refuse to see anything other than their view they are a dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impoverished Noble Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I don't understand why people wouldn't want Jons POV in the next book. How else will you get insight into the free folk and the nights watch. She's not evil but she's a zealot which means everything that she says and thinks is biased. No different from the Christian inquisitions or what's happening in the Middle East right at this moment. When people refuse to see anything other than their view they are a dangerous.How is burning someone alive not evil? Are you also saying you think ISIS I just misunderstood? Are you high? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 They sent the direwolves to the Stark children. ("they were meant to have them") They give powers of prophecy to greendreamers like Jojen Reed The magic of skinchanging is sourced to the weirwoods The First Men were taught skinchanging and adopted the Old Gods as a part of the Pact. The only religion not confirmed to have actual magic is the Faith of the Seven. This is a world filled with magic and supernatural creatures. All of the above could simply be down to the fact that there is magic in the world and that people have attributed it to gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narvi Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Where do you get that I think it's ok to burn people in that post? I'm stating that they're dangerous not that I agree with their views. I've personally seen the results of zealots up close in the Middle East so I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 How is burning someone alive not evil? Are you also saying you think ISIS I just misunderstood? Are you high? Burning someone alive is no more evil than killing them by any other means. It's a bad way to die, yes...but you still die. I don't see how one method of killing someone is inherently more evil than another way. The act of killing someone is the act that should be deemed evil or not. I think it is evil to sacrifice an innocent child. I don't think it is evil to execute a prisoner, although I consider some methods more humane than others. I think we should stop with the comparison to real world terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 This is a world filled with magic and supernatural creatures. All of the above could simply be down to the fact that there is magic in the world and that people have attributed it to gods. In ADWD, Jojen Reed tells us that the "old gods" are just the spirits of past greenseers. The case is building that the magic of the weirwoods is blood magic. So the gods are "real" but GRRM is blurring the line between the merely supernatural and the divine. Which is fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impoverished Noble Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Burning someone alive is no more evil than killing them by any other means. It's a bad way to die, yes...but you still die. I don't see how one method of killing someone is inherently more evil than another way. The act of killing someone is the act that should be deemed evil or not. I think it is evil to sacrifice an innocent child. I don't think it is evil to execute a prisoner, although I consider some methods more humane than others. I think we should stop with the comparison to real world terrorists.If they are tortured while killed, or die slowly and painfully, when they can just as easily be killed quickly, then that is more evil. I'm sure if you were the one being executed you'd feel a whole lot differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 If they are tortured while killed, or die slowly and painfully, when they can just as easily be killed quickly, then that is more evil. I'm sure if you were the one being executed you'd feel a whole lot differently. No, I'm just loathe to throw the word "evil" around for everything I didn't like. I called it 'inhumane', but I don't equate that necessarily with 'evil'. Are dragons 'evil' because they burn things? Melisandre burns people because her god is the god of light and fire. If her god was the god of beheadings, would that be considered 'evil', as well? To me, 'evil' is what moves a person to do what they do...not the act itself. If a woman kills her child because of post-partum depression, I don't consider that evil...I consider that a tragedy. If a woman kills her child because she wants to see that child die, THAT is evil. If people are killing others because they have been brainwashed, are they evil? To me, the evil person in that scenario is the one who brainwashed them. That's the distinction I make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Everyone in asoiaf can be considered evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Pink-Knight Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 She has grown on me a bit since she was introduced but she killed Renly so I'll never truly like her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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