Why is Melisandre considered evil?

[Impoverished Noble]

She has grown on me a bit since she was introduced but she killed Renly so I'll never truly like her.

Who cares if she killed Renly. He's a pretty insignificant character. Additionally, Stannis is just as responsible for Renly's death. Melisandre birthed the shadow baby, but Stannis controlled it in his sleep.

[Impoverished Noble]

No, I'm just loathe to throw the word "evil" around for everything I didn't like. I called it 'inhumane', but I don't equate that necessarily with 'evil'. Are dragons 'evil' because they burn things? Melisandre burns people because her god is the god of light and fire. If her god was the god of beheadings, would that be considered 'evil', as well?

To me, 'evil' is what moves a person to do what they do...not the act itself. If a woman kills her child because of post-partum depression, I don't consider that evil...I consider that a tragedy. If a woman kills her child because she wants to see that child die, THAT is evil. If people are killing others because they have been brainwashed, are they evil? To me, the evil person in that scenario is the one who brainwashed them.

That's the distinction I make.

I guess you don't believe in free will. You're making excuses for people who are capable of making their own decisions. You have some backwards morality.

[David Selig]

Seriously, I never understood why. She does what she does because she believes in it. She's not faking it. Sure it may not be the best thing that she burns people, but she believes its what her god wants and that its for the greater good.

I hate to be that guy, but someone has to say it - so did Hitler.

[sj4iy]

I guess you don't believe in free will. You're making excuses for people who are capable of making their own decisions. You have some backwards morality.

I don't make excuses. I just don't throw around loaded terms to describe everything I don't like or agree with.

Also, I don't care what you think about my morality. Forwards, backwards, whatever...I just refuse to see the world in black and white.

[sj4iy]

I hate to be that guy, but someone has to say it - so did Hitler.

Way to Godwin the thread.

[John Doe]

I hate to be that guy, but someone has to say it - so did Hitler.

So you compare the Others to the jews? The difference is, the Others are a real, evil threat, the jews aren't and weren't.

[David Selig]

So you compare the Others to the jews? The difference is, the Others are a real, evil threat, the jews aren't and weren't.

No, I don't. I am saying that "she really believes it is for the greater good" doesn't mean she's not evil. Some of the worst atrocities in history were committed by people with the same belief.

[Wmarshal]

Mel isn't evil, we have been in her head, she is tamed. Also Jon's fears of her burning baby Aemon and old is BS, case and point Mance lives, he was king, you would think she was that desperate for kings blood should have sacrificed him.

[sj4iy]

Mel isn't evil, we have been in her head, she is tamed. Also Jon's fears of her burning baby Aemon and old is BS, case and point Mance lives, he was king, you would think she was that desperate for kings blood should have sacrificed him.

We may have been in her head but Jon hasn't. Neither has Davos. They have to make decisions based on what they see and hear, not one what Melisandre herself thinks.

[John Doe]

No, I don't. I am saying that "she really believes it is for the greater good" doesn't mean she's not evil. Some of the worst atrocities in history were committed by people with the same belief.

True, but Mel fights against a real threat, and that's the difference for me.

[Faint]

The manner in which the story is told has an almost incurable effect on how some readers view characters, even when they occupy a similar position in the moral spectrum.

Imagine for a moment that we were actually reading the point-of-view of the innocent guardsman that Arya killed. Melisandre is operating from a similar mindset as Arya with respect to Edric Storm in that she thinks killing him is necessary.

And the funny thing is, she did not even kill him. Whereas Arya dropped the guardsman, and Daeron for that matter, whose only crime was being unjustly forced into the Night's Watch. Yet Melisandre is the one that gets all the grief for thinking of killing people she never even ended up killing.

By the way, does she get no credit for saving Jon Snow and the Night's Watch from utter destruction?

Nobody seems to want to consider her good acts in these discussions.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The problem is not that she is or is not evil, she is competing against the inbred , incestuous , deserter from the Night's Watch Bloodraven.

[Pod The Impaler]

Seriously, I never understood why. She does what she does because she believes in it. She's not faking it. Sure it may not be the best thing that she burns people, but she believes its what her god wants and that its for the greater good.

Well, she may believe she's doing the right thing / for the greater good and not for her own glorification as R'Hillor's kingmaker savior-maker, but deception is part of her game, including self-deception. Her pride certainly stands out, and while she may accept that she can be sometimes wrong about the little things, she never questions herself about the big things.

It may be that R'Hillor worshippers are overall a nasty piece of work. Melisandre is birthing shadow assassins, tricking Stannis with leeches, burning some people and wanting to burn others. Thoros, the nicest and most humble of them, is out there creating and consorting with the undead, and one can either accept that this is some some of torment for them (Beric) or an ominous danger to others (Lady Stoneheart); even if the BWB were about justice before, he admits that the BWB have abandoned any sort of due process, and yet he stays with them. Moquorro is very strong in his beliefs, but also seems to not care how many innocents are burned or chucked and/or into the sea, so long as Victarion is doing his R'Hillor's bidding in some way. And all across Essos, the followers of R'Hillor are starting to wage some sort of holy war against all other faiths, and there are hints that it is perhaps with Dany (unknowingly) as their chosen champion.

So to judge it normally, Melisandre is certainly not altogether good or evil. To judge it by her own standards, part of her onion is rotten, so ... know what I mean ?

[David Selig]

By the way, does she get no credit for saving Jon Snow and the Night's Watch from utter destruction?

That's the main reason I don't like her. :cool4:

[sj4iy]

The manner in which the story is told has an almost incurable effect on how some readers view characters, even when they occupy a similar position in the moral spectrum.

Imagine for a moment that we were actually reading the point-of-view of the innocent guardsman that Arya killed. Melisandre is operating from a similar mindset as Arya with respect to Edric Storm in that she thinks killing him is necessary.

And the funny thing is, she did not even kill him. Whereas Arya dropped the guardsman, and Daeron for that matter, whose only crime was being unjustly forced into the Night's Watch. Yet Melisandre is the one that gets all the grief for thinking of killing people she never even ended up killing.

By the way, does she get no credit for saving Jon Snow and the Night's Watch from utter destruction?

Nobody seems to want to consider her good acts in these discussions.

I think Melisandre's main problem is that she believes the ends justifies the means. Now, some people agree with this...others don't. It's a very controversial stand to take, but she believes it 100%. If a few innocents have to die to save thousands more, then she will do that. We see that many other characters take the same stance, although to varying degrees. We see the precedent in Azor Ahai, who sacrifices the one he loves best in the world to defeat the darkness. If killing one innocent person could save the world from destruction, how many people would make that choice?

Also, to use the same metaphor people here are using...if the outside of an onion looks bad, sometimes peeling those away will reveal a perfectly good center.

[John Doe]

I think Melisandre's main problem is that she believes the ends justifies the means. Now, some people agree with this...others don't.

:agree:

[BitsOfBrains]

I am a big Mel fan.

I am just worried she is going to turn out to be like an animated corpse and not this sexy redhead at all but some crypt keeper looking thing.

I have read the theories on the red priests all being animated corpses in the style of lord Berric and it seems possible although Thoros seems to still be alive in the traditional sense. (losing and gaining weight, laughs, drinks, fucks, etc) but Moqorro and Mel both seem to not need sleep or food or water just like Dondarion.

[Hos the Hostage]

People Arya killed were mostly bad people. The guard in harrenhal we don't know, but Dareon was a prick. If he used the money he spent for buying himself peacock robes, he could have saved master Aemon.

Mel kills lot of Stannis's bannermen simply because they worship the Seven. How will it harm Rhllor if some people worship Seven? They were Stannis's men. They would have fought whoever he told them to fight. Mel burn people simply for religious dominance. She tricks Stannis with leeches. She make Stannis a kinslayer in effect. Mel did not save Jon. She wanted to fight Others, it so happened that when they reached the North they ended up saving Jon. Thank Davos, if any.Even if she showed some battle in snow vision to Stannis, Mel did not tell Stannis about the attack on the Wall, Davos did.

And we really don't know if the Others are evil. They reanimate corpses, but don't the red priests do the same?

[Narvi]

By the way, does she get no credit for saving Jon Snow and the Night's Watch from utter destruction?

Nobody seems to want to consider her good acts in these discussions.

When did she do that? Pretty sure it was Davos convincing Stannis that led to that. On another note I can't think of one good thing that she's done.

[sj4iy]

When did she do that? Pretty sure it was Davos convincing Stannis that led to that. On another note I can't think of one good thing that she's done.

She repeatedly warned Jon of the danger he was in. She sends Mance to retrieve Arya for Jon. She officiated the wedding of Alys and Styr.

If she really is evil, why does Ghost like her?