Minsc Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Did Tywin know that? Tyrion knew it and I doubt he kept silent about it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 1. It does work out fine, they smash Stannis at Blackwater and Roose and Walder turn cloak to kill Robb and his army. And then Tywin stitched Ned's head on? If not, then no, it didn't turn out fine. The Ned beheading was stupid but there was nothing he could of done about it. Not afterward, no. He was in the middle of a war to secure the throne and he wasn't aware how dumb Joff was or how little control Cersei had of him. It doesn't help your argument to claim he left people whose capabilities he was unaware of behind. Do you comprehend that Joff executing Ned came out of left field? The fact that Joffrey chose that particular blunder came as something of a surprise, but come on now, leaving Joffrey in charge of the realm with only Cersei to keep an eye on him? Man, that's idiotic, and utterly predictable that it would turn out to be a disaster, one way or another. Cersei is Tywin's own daughter, doesn't he realize how unfit she is to rule, doesn't he realize his grandson is not entirely sane? Even Varys was surprised and he has a far better feel of things in KL than Tywin who has been at Casterly Rock for the past 15 years.2. Why would Tywin trust his army to someone else after the other 2 commanders he gave part of his forces to just got them slaughtered? You can pose all sorts of odd questions, but the bottom line is Tywin is responsible for who he appoints as sub-commanders. Their mistakes are his mistakes. It doesn't make sense, a good commander like Tywin - losing multiple battles to an inferior force is the true mark of a good commander, I see - with such an iron grip over his region isn't going to give what is left of his forces to someone else. He put them in command because they were Lannisters obviously. Which was a piss-poor reason. I suppose Robb is a terrible commander to for putting Roose in charge of most his army? That was not a smart move, to put it lightly. You keep comparing Tywin to other people who also made mistakes. I'm not making a pro-Robb or a pro-Stannis argument. I'm just talking about Tywin. So far as I can tell, Tywin is a good plotter but has virtually no other talents. He would make a godawful king. Everything he touches turns to shit. He leaves an utter disaster behind. There's no spinning that.3. As if he has a choice? Joffrey is the one with the claim to the throne not him, as I already said what Joff did with Ned was unpredicatable and once he does it Tywin quickly and successfully remedies the problem. This must be the stitching Ned's head back on part. What chapter is that in again? So far as I know, Tywin did nothing to insure Ned stayed alive. The entire realm paid the price for that mistake, the Lannisters chief among the price-payers.4. How did Stannis feel about saving the throne when he actually had the means to secure it? Don't act like most his army getting wiped out didn't play a role.Good try though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Ned's head doesn't need to be sewn back on, it was setback nothing more, it wasn't the end of the world. It ensured he would be locked in war with the Northmen, but the King Who Lost the North was killed along with army so in the end it was resolved. He doesn't have to assume they are genius' to trust them to rule over 1 city. It isn't like he has much choice in leaving Joffrey in charge, Joff is king and Tywin has to be in the field with the Lannister forces. I really don't see why it is so hard to grasp that he couldn't just walk away from the war in the Riverlands to settle things in KL. He sent Tyrion to handle it and Tyrion handled it. It isn't an odd question, you are saying he should leave what is left of his forces to someone else when the other two people he did that for got massacred. Their mistakes are their own mistakes that end up hurting him. When did he lose multiple battles to a inferior force? If you think Tywin has no talents besides plotting you should probably reread the books. When did I claim they stitched Ned's ugly head back on? What is he supposed to do to try and prevent Ned's death? Ride hard for KL for an execution he isn't even aware is going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Ned's head doesn't need to be sewn back on, it was setback nothing more, it wasn't the end of the world. It ensured he would be locked in war with the Northmen, but the King Who Lost the North was killed along with army so in the end it was resolved. He doesn't have to assume they are genius' to trust them to rule over 1 city. It isn't like he has much choice in leaving Joffrey in charge, Joff is king and Tywin has to be in the field with the Lannister forces. I really don't see why it is so hard to grasp that he couldn't just walk away from the war in the Riverlands to settle things in KL. He sent Tyrion to handle it and Tyrion handled it. It isn't an odd question, you are saying he should leave what is left of his forces to someone else when the other two people he did that for got massacred. Their mistakes are their own mistakes that end up hurting him. When did he lose multiple battles to a inferior force? If you think Tywin has no talents besides plotting you should probably reread the books. When did I claim they stitched Ned's ugly head back on? What is he supposed to do to try and prevent Ned's death? Ride hard for KL for an execution he isn't even aware is going to happen? Really, results are the bottom line. We can argue about details from now til whenever, but the bottom line is that the Lannisters were on top of the world when we started reading and now they are on the verge of extinction and universally reviled. Almost all of that downfall happened on Tywin's watch, and hell, Dany hasn't even gotten into town yet. Tywin has a bad case of tunnel vision on short-term results and complete blindness to long-term effects. Spend a few decades sowing the wind, and eventually this is what you reap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haven19 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 HD, it's pretty obvious you don't like him, which is fine. As I personally hate the Greyjoys, that's just me. Opinions differ, but you're letting this sour opinion on Tywin influence your judgment. You can't just deny him of being a wise and experienced ruler, military strategist & commander (when he clearly was) just because you don't like him, that's like the Lannisters denying Ned Stark has any honor and claiming him a traitor just because he's an enemy.. Oh, wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haven19 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Tywin was capable to do some very bad things if it was necessary, but he did those things not for his own pleassure, this is the difference between him and King Joffery. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 no right to it. first, supports, rape, murder of innocents to inflict terror in order to maintain control. No sence of Justice unless it benefits him or his "house". Just a few objections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 HD, it's pretty obvious you don't like him, which is fine. As I personally hate the Greyjoys, that's just me. Opinions differ, but you're letting this sour opinion on Tywin influence your judgment. You can't just deny him of being a wise and experienced ruler, military strategist & commander (when he clearly was) just because you don't like him, that's like the Lannisters denying Ned Stark has any honor and claiming him a traitor just because he's an enemy.. Oh, wait. Actually, you're quite incorrect, I dig Tywin, he's very entertaining. Probably not one of my top 10 characters, but close. But he's a horrible leader with a short-term fixation. His results are disastrous, and consistently so. It cracks me up when people praise him. I mean, we have just been reading 5,000 pages of the downfall of the Lannister family. They were on top of the world when we checked in as readers. Right before our very eyes, everything has fallen completely apart, and Tywin was absolutely running the show while that happened. Virtually everybody in the realm loathes and despises his family. Do you really think that's going to work out in the long run? The Lannisters - if they survive at all, which is in question - will be remembered as the family who murdered the royal babies forever. The Red Wedding? Same deal. It will never be forgotten - and maybe everybody doesn't know the Lannisters are involved now, but do you really think the Freys are going to continue to accept full blame as more and more retribution is taken on them? Even though Tywin outright says to Tyrion that he probably only has a few years of life yet, he has made no provisions at all for settling his estate or running the realm after his death, and everything predictably falls apart in a terrible way once he receives the crossbow bolt that he did so much to encourage the firing of. I can't deny that he is an experienced ruler, strategist and commander, and maybe one day when we weren't watching a long time ago he was a wise one, but while we've been watching it has been one disaster after another, one failure after another, and if you're paying attention to what happens in the book instead of listening to all the characters talk about how much they fear him, you can actually pick up on him making the mistakes that cause all these disasters as he makes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericsch13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Then why did the common folk hide him in stoney sept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tiger Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Can you name one highborn who has sympathy for the commonfolk in Westro Jaehaerys I and Aegon V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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