addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I have no doubt that Jon Snow will be a different character. Perhaps less noble and honorable having come to some understanding that the War will require lots of bloodshed. He'll be harder and more resolute. He may be more grey. But to make him akin to Roose and Ramsey--flayers and rapers and torturers--is ludercrious. & that is exactly why GRRM is likely to write it that way... Please Note: I'm not saying that Jon will be in the business of flaying people (though it is not out of the question), but he's going to do something different with Jon & the result will not be 'a hero'... There are a lot of catalysts coming up, any one of which could drastically alter Jon's personality... The first of which is that he is going to be trapped inside of a wolf, with their minds becoming one... Who knows what will happen to Jon in the heart of Winter... Will Jon ever reunite with his body?... Other twist/turns that GRRM has up his sleeve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabrecmc Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Have you read the books? Well, yes, several times. I'm not saying GRRM does paint by numbers monomyth, most of the authors writing at his level of success don't, but as far as following the basics...well, there is a reason it is so successful. Because we (humans) love these stories, and have, across cultures and time periods, for ages. Not that people can't have a different perception, as I said. Maybe it is mind-boggling to some how GRRM does things. Just doesn't look all that different than what I've seen and read before...and that's a good thing! It isn't a criticism. If the story so far has been shocking to people, then maybe they just have different experiences with stories that make the ideas seem all twisty, I don't know. But, again, different perceptions. I'm no scholar or expert or anything. Maybe he'll do something that is truly shocking that fits in the story and makes sense. I just haven't seen it yet. He's certainly talented enough to pull it off. If he does suddenly decide to buck tradition and go all crazy, he can, but I think the story would suffer and ultimately not be as satisfying. Other people may celebrate that kind of thing. Red Queen, yes, I should have expressed that better. I think JonCon, like Rheagal Targaryen said, would think Jon was named after him. It wouldn't occur to him that it was Ned picking it b/c of Jon Arryn, I don't think. JonCon is a romantic, after all, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Now, we DO have foreshadowing that he will FIGHT the wights and the Others, so him turning into an Other would make absolutely no sense. You think that you have this foreshadowing, but you do not... In a dream, Jon saw his body with a flaming sword... However, you do not know who was inside that body... Jon is about to become separated from his body & we do not know if he will ever find his way back to it or not... I think that the Jon we know will utilize Hodor as his primary body for the rest of the series & AAR / TPTWP will be reborn into Jon's body... You are correct about the foreshadowing, of course, but i think that you are applying it wrong... If we know anything about GRRM it is that there are twists & turns, if your predicted outcome of the story does not have a major twist/turn, then it is wrong... You have to find a way to apply the foreshadowing & include twist/turns, if you can't do this then your interpretation is sure to be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 You think that you have this foreshadowing, but you do not... In a dream, Jon saw his body with a flaming sword... However, you do not know who was inside that body... Jon is about to become separated from his body & we do not know if he will ever find his way back to it or not... I think that the Jon we know will utilize Hodor as his primary body for the rest of the series & AAR / TPTWP will be reborn into Jon's body... You are correct about the foreshadowing, of course, but i think that you are applying it wrong... If we know anything about GRRM it is that there are twists & turns, if your predicted outcome of the story does not have a major twist/turn, then it is wrong... You have to find a way to apply the foreshadowing & include twist/turns, if you can't do this then your interpretation is sure to be wrong... ...how am I applying foreshadowing wrong when his dream clearly shows him standing on the Wall, holding a flaming sword and fighting dead people? And it's clear that his dreams are prophetic. Why would the Night's King be fighting with a flaming sword against dead people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 ...how am I applying foreshadowing wrong when his dream clearly shows him standing on the Wall, holding a flaming sword and fighting dead people? And it's clear that his dreams are prophetic. Why would the Night's King be fighting with a flaming sword against dead people? Please read the post that you are replying to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Please read the post that you are replying to... ...you can't be serious in believing that Jon will warg into Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 You think that you have this foreshadowing, but you do not... In a dream, Jon saw his body with a flaming sword... However, you do not know who was inside that body... Jon is about to become separated from his body & we do not know if he will ever find his way back to it or not... I think that the Jon we know will utilize Hodor as his primary body for the rest of the series & AAR / TPTWP will be reborn into Jon's body... You are correct about the foreshadowing, of course, but i think that you are applying it wrong... If we know anything about GRRM it is that there are twists & turns, if your predicted outcome of the story does not have a major twist/turn, then it is wrong... You have to find a way to apply the foreshadowing & include twist/turns, if you can't do this then your interpretation is sure to be wrong... Well, I for one can't see Jon inhabiting Hodor as that would just be for shock value only and nothing about a cohesive and structurally sound narrative, but everyone's got their theory.... And as to GRRM and twists and turns: that's the thing. GRRM likes to sell himself as the breaker-of-all-things. But he's not. Killing Ned was shocking but it wasn't "THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE" territory. May of his characters are taking similar heroic paths of heroes out of old myths or legends or even more familiar stories from pop culture. Even Jon becoming a more grey, less honorable man, who recognizes that war is coming and that means hard decisions and sacrifices isn't atypical. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly going to join the rank of the Others and bring hell down on Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I have read previous post of yours stating that you understand that Jon is about to become separated from his body... What makes you think that he will ever reunite with it? There has been a significant amount of foreshadowing that goes all the way back to AGOTs that places Jon's body in the ice cells for a prolonged / indefinite period of time... The dream sequence / foreshadowing that you have noted definitely suggest that Jon's body will not remain frozen in the Ice Cells for forever though... What makes you think that it will be the spirit / consciousness of Jon Snow who is reborn into his body & not someone else??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 ...you can't be serious in believing that Jon will warg into Hodor. Hodor is a character who has been designed by GRRM from day one for a significant purpose... No One is stronger than Hodor, no one... Hodor has been 'broken in' by bran for warging & as the books clearly state, it will now be easier for someone else to come in & take him... GRRM has also conveniently placed Hodor beyond the wall, where we know that Jon is going... Hodor definitely has a purpose & that purpose is not for Bran to use him to walk around in a cave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I have read previous post of yours stating that you understand that Jon is about to become separated from his body... What makes you think that he will ever reunite with it? There has been a significant amount of foreshadowing that goes all the way back to AGOTs that places Jon's body in the ice cells for a prolonged / indefinite period of time... The dream sequence / foreshadowing that you have noted definitely suggest that Jon's body will not remain frozen in the Ice Cells for forever though... What makes you think that it will be the spirit / consciousness of Jon Snow who is reborn into his body & not someone else??? Oh, he's totally living inside Ghost for the moment. And yes, his body will be inside that ice cell...totally. You and I agree here. But look back at the dream where he's holding a flaming sword. You think that's AAR/TPTWP and not Jon Snow, but then why is JON SNOW having the dream? Because that's him, not some other thing wearing is skin as a suit. My guess is that Mel is going to sacrifice Ghost puppy *(tear) and Jon will return to himself. I don't know why he would go to Hodor. it will now be easier for someone else to come in & take him... GRRM has also conveniently placed Hodor beyond the wall, where we know that Jon is going... Jon MIGHT go beyond the Wall at some point, yes. But I don't think it's happening in Winds. His job is to get Westeros prepared. And that means going into Westeros. First stop : WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Well, I for one can't see Jon inhabiting Hodor as that would just be for shock value only and nothing about a cohesive and structurally sound narrative, but everyone's got their theory.... Please explain the 'shock value'... Would you rather Jon be trapped in a wolf or that he takes Hodor??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 Please explain the 'shock value'... Would you rather Jon be trapped in a wolf or that he takes Hodor??? The shock value is that suddenly Jon Snow, arguably one of the most important POV characters in the series, is suddenly living inside another person, a man who has been treated like a horse for the most part and only knows one word. And I would prefer that he returns to his own body via sacrifice of Ghost. Well, okay no. I would prefer that Ghost puppy doesn't die but...that seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I don't know why he would go to Hodor. Because Hodor is the only character in the novels that has been prepared for warging... Jon MIGHT go beyond the Wall at some point, yes. But I don't think it's happening in Winds. His job is to get Westeros prepared. And that means going into Westeros. First stop : WF Nope; It was heavily foreshadowed in ADWDs that Jon (inside of Ghost) & Val will be headed North in the TWOW... Jon will not be going to winterfell for a long, long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 <snip> /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 Because Hodor is the only character in the novels that has been prepared for warging... And Bran is doing that. So...why Jon? Why can't it just be Bran who is already in the Far North, learning from someone who has taken on God like powers, and more associated with strictly ICE than Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 The shock value is that suddenly Jon Snow, arguably one of the most important POV characters in the series, is suddenly living inside another person, a man who has been treated like a horse for the most part and only knows one word. I don't see this as being shocking at all... GRRM has clearly already laid the groundwork, precedence, and foreshadowing for Jon to inhabit Hodor... Jon has to inhabit something, and I think we agree that his own body is not an option, as it will be frozen in the Ice Cells & The Wall blocks all Warg / Host Communications. As long as Jon's body is in the Ice Cells, it will be uninhabitable, & the foreshadowing suggest that this will be a long time... So will Jon stay inside of Ghost? Or will Jon utilize Hodor (who's character development & placement are too perfect to be just a mere coincidence)? If you guessed Hodor, then you are probably right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 And Bran is doing that. So...why Jon? Why can't it just be Bran who is already in the Far North, learning from someone who has taken on God like powers, and more associated with strictly ICE than Jon? Bran has bigger fish to fry... Bran can't be both the "Winged Wolf" & roam around the far North inside of Hodor, it's got to be one or the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I don't see this as being shocking at all... GRRM has clearly already laid the groundwork, precedence, and foreshadowing for Jon to inhabit Hodor... Jon has to inhabit something, and I think we agree that his own body is not an option, as it will be frozen in the Ice Cells & The Wall blocks all Warg / Host Communications. As long as Jon's body is in the Ice Cells, it will be uninhabitable, & the foreshadowing suggest that this will be a long time... So will Jon stay inside of Ghost? Or will Jon utilize Hodor (who's character development & placement are too perfect to be just a mere coincidence)? If you guessed Hodor, then you are probably right... *looks over at Essos and see three dragons, one of which is named for Jon's father* Oh hey there... However, I still think that Jon's...soul...essence...mind...insert your favorite option here..will return to his actual body. BRAN is utilizing Hodor, at least to walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 Bran has bigger fish to fry... Bran can't be both the "Winged Wolf" & roam around the far North inside of Hodor, it's got to be one or the other... Bran only uses Hodor for a very specific reason, to walk. The other times he's inside Summer, or a bird, or *fingers crossed* an actual ice dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 BRAN is utilizing Hodor, at least to walk. He has been, though I see no reason that it has to continue... The Books were very clear that Skin-changed animal is much like a horse - Once it has been broken, it can be easily utilized by any warg... Now why would GRRM go to the trouble of explaining this if we were not going to see the principle used as a part of the plot??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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