R+L= J v. 106

[Eat My Steel]

One little hint:

I am unsure if anybody else has mentioned this on this thread (I didn't read all of it...), but in the first book Ned is visiting Robert's bastard daughter Barra and begins thinking about Jon Snow (I don't have page numbers handy - around mid 200s, Eddard 4,5???) and then he suddenly finds himself thinking about Rhaegar for the first time in years. "Would Rhaegar be out whoring like Robert?" (paraphrase)

Why else would Ned start thinking about Rhaegar suddenly right after thinking about Jon Snow?

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I just can't see Jon becoming The Night's King that would mean he would favour his ice side when we know he is both fire and ice.There are more chances of him becoming an airbender than this.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Wait wait wait wait wait.

Did we just find something we disagree on.....

I feared that you might notice that I was suggesting such a thing (I tried to avoid admitting such an unbearable thought). Maybe I just need to work harder to convince you to come over to my way of thinking. :cool4:

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

One little hint:

I am unsure if anybody else has mentioned this on this thread (I didn't read all of it...), but in the first book Ned is visiting Robert's bastard daughter Barra and begins thinking about Jon Snow (I don't have page numbers handy - around mid 200s, Eddard 4,5???) and then he suddenly finds himself thinking about Rhaegar for the first time in years. "Would Rhaegar be out whoring like Robert?" (paraphrase)

Why else would Ned start thinking about Rhaegar suddenly right after thinking about Jon Snow?

He thinks that Rhaegar would never father a bastard when he compares him to Robert and he is actually right Rhaegar never fathered a bastard to begin with.Then his thought drift to Jon which is kinda weird,isn't it?Unless there is an obvious link between Jon and Rhaegar.

[BearQueen87]

One little hint:

I am unsure if anybody else has mentioned this on this thread (I didn't read all of it...), but in the first book Ned is visiting Robert's bastard daughter Barra and begins thinking about Jon Snow (I don't have page numbers handy - around mid 200s, Eddard 4,5???) and then he suddenly finds himself thinking about Rhaegar for the first time in years. "Would Rhaegar be out whoring like Robert?" (paraphrase)

Why else would Ned start thinking about Rhaegar suddenly right after thinking about Jon Snow?

Yes :) That's a point brought up quite frequently.

He thinks that Rhaegar would never father a bastard when he compares him to Robert and he is actually right Rhaegar never fathered a bastard to begin with.Then his thought drift to Jon which is kinda weird,isn't it?Unless there is an obvious link between Jon and Rhaegar.

Mmhm. Ned thinks that between the two--his friend and King, and the man who supposedly abducted and raped his little sister--Rhaegar is the one who wouldn't be frequenting brothels

*cough* J is legit *cough*

[BearQueen87]

I just can't see Jon becoming The Night's King that would mean he would favour his ice side when we know he is both fire and ice.There are more chances of him becoming an airbender than this.

Jon is the Avatar. It is known.

I feared that you might notice that I was suggesting such a thing (I tried to avoid admitting such an unbearable thought). Maybe I just need to work harder to convince you to come over to my way of thinking. :cool4:

Go for it, lol. This is an uncomfortable situation we now find ourselves in.

[Ellfoy]

One little hint:

I am unsure if anybody else has mentioned this on this thread (I didn't read all of it...), but in the first book Ned is visiting Robert's bastard daughter Barra and begins thinking about Jon Snow (I don't have page numbers handy - around mid 200s, Eddard 4,5???) and then he suddenly finds himself thinking about Rhaegar for the first time in years. "Would Rhaegar be out whoring like Robert?" (paraphrase)

Why else would Ned start thinking about Rhaegar suddenly right after thinking about Jon Snow?

Yeah that's the splendid Eddard VIII when Ned's thoughts drift to Jon, Rhaegar, Lyanna and the promise. That's the chapter that convinced me when I read it. I already knew about the R+L=J theory (got spoiled) but after that one, I was sure.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah that's the splendid Eddard VIII when Ned's thoughts drift to Jon, Rhaegar, Lyanna and the promise. That's the chapter that convinced me when I read it. I already knew about the R+L=J theory (got spoiled) but after that one, I was sure.

That was the chapter that put up a red flag in my brain. I had read aGoT through ASOS once already. Feast wasn't out yet but was close, so I decided to re-read and after that moment about Rhaegar vs Robert I remember saying, outloud, "wait...why doesn't Ned hate this guy..."

[UnmaskedLurker]

Was the foreshadowing referring to Jon or Jon's body?

Of course it referred to Jon, but I am not sure that Jon is really Jon unless he is back in his body. We also have Mel's vision of a man then a wolf and then a man again. That suggests to me he will return to his body (not the body of Hodor--a different man).

What Mel Saw was a vision, of Jon Snow as AAR... She has no way of knowing who was inside Jon Snow's body...

Well, actually, I think all she saw was Snow--not necessarily Jon Snow. It is up to the reader to determine that Snow means Jon Snow. The point is, I thought you indicated that Jon will NOT be AAR at all. If you are now switching to saying he will be AAR, just in Hodor's body, that is something different--but still not credible to me. Again, if Jon is in Hodor's body, he is not really Jon--he is Jodor (or something). I don't see such a hybrid entity fulfilling the vision.

You should have more faith in GRRM than this... I'm sure that he'll be able to hold the story together... The kinda 'confused hash' that I suggest is well supported by foreshadowing, in story precedence, and the application of logic with regards to writing...

Basically, what your post says is 'I don't think your prediction is right, because I wouldn't like the story'... Well, I think you should keep reading & give the story a chance...

I have complete faith in GRRM -- complete faith he will not go down a path that leads to confusing and unsatisfying story telling--which is why I think most of your predictions will not come to pass. Just to be clear, while I am not predicting that Jon will warg into Hodor, I don't consider it completely unlikely. What I consider virtually incompatible with the story arc that GRRM has set up for Jon is for Jon not to return to his own body at some point. Jon--the full and complete Jon--in his own body with his own original and in-tact soul--must fulfill the prophesies for the story to really hang together.

As to your charge that I believe what I believe because otherwise I would not like the story--you must have not seen many of my postings. I try incredibly hard not to let my personal preference interfere with my textual analysis. I am sure that I am not 100% perfect in that attempt, but I really want to get my predictions correct. I will get much more satisfaction being correct than I ever could by arguing for a pet theory that I like but that won't happen (and eventually will have to admit that I was wrong about). I actually am a sucker for happy endings and would love for GRRM to write one--but I know he won't and I expect to enjoy the ending he supplied anyway (which he has already said will be bittersweet). I think this happens to be a case of "projection" where you are so enamored of your "original" theory with "clever twists" that you ignore the basic structure GRRM has created for the story in favor of a "twist fest" along the lines of the type of story that you prefer to read. But maybe I am wrong about that--I cannot read your mind, after all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That was the chapter that put up a red flag in my brain. I had read aGoT through ASOS once already. Feast wasn't out yet but was close, so I decided to re-read and after that moment about Rhaegar vs Robert I remember saying, outloud, "wait...why doesn't Ned hate this guy..."

It's more than that... "why does Ned think the guy who "raped" his sister is a better person than the one who claimed to love her and it's his best friend?".

It's because deep deep deep inside, Ned has realised that their Rebellion costed too much and it was for nothing. Jon's real father, the one who probably loved him and specially WANTED HIM, bastard or not, had to died so a man who barely cared about their bastards, "real" children and wife would be King instead. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, while Robert never knew her, but his fixated ideas of her and their consequences, got Jon's both parents killed and robbed him his real life and happiness. He doesn't say it, but it's there. Later, he practically tells Robert that Rhaegar was a better man. He's definitely fed up with Robert's obsession about Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

It's more than that... "why does Ned think the guy who "raped" his sister is a better person than the one who claimed to love her and it's his best friend?".

It's because deep deep deep inside, Ned has realised that their Rebellion costed too much and it was for nothing. Jon's real father, the one who probably loved him and specially WANTED HIM, bastard or not, had to died so a man who barely cared about their bastards, "real" children and wife would be King instead. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, while Robert never knew her, but his fixated ideas of her and their consequences, got Jon's both parents killed and robbed him his real life and happiness. He doesn't say it, but it's there. Later, he practically tells Robert that Rhaegar was a better man. He's definitely fed up with Robert's obsession about Rhaegar.

I think that this part ties in with an earlier response to Robert's Rhaegar bashing, which we "go ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor". Ned retorts something about avenging Lyanna but in his mind, the talk of Rhaegar's honor evokes "promise me". I believe that both these parts indicate that Ned believed Rhaegar to be a man of honour.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

It's more than that... "why does Ned think the guy who "raped" his sister is a better person than the one who claimed to love her and it's his best friend?".

It's because deep deep deep inside, Ned has realised that their Rebellion costed too much and it was for nothing. Jon's real father, the one who probably loved him and specially WANTED HIM, bastard or not, had to died so a man who barely cared about their bastards, "real" children and wife would be King instead. Rhaegar loved Lyanna, while Robert never knew her, but his fixated ideas of her and their consequences, got Jon's both parents killed and robbed him his real life and happiness. He doesn't say it, but it's there. Later, he practically tells Robert that Rhaegar was a better man. He's definitely fed up with Robert's obsession about Rhaegar.

Agreed with preety much everything you said.Robert never actually loved Lyanna,he loved the idea of her,Ned even tells him that he never trully knew her.This basically makes us see that he saw her as something that belonged to him.Am i the only one who thinks that if Lyanna somehow survived and married Robert,Jon is again raised as Ned's bastard,he would still be drinking and whoring?Maybe not so much as he had with Cersei but still he would still continue to have the same attitude.

[BearQueen87]

Basically, what your post says is 'I don't think your prediction is right, because I wouldn't like the story'... Well, I think you should keep reading & give the story a chance...

Going back to this for a second because I had a thought, but Bran is playing out a version of the Last Hero story. And in that story, that we get from Old Nan, everyone associated with the LH's adventure dies: his friends, his dog, his horse. Well, Bran might be loosing all those as well. Jojen is a goner, Meera is up in the air for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if she died as well. Bran might loose Summer, it's not the first time a Stark lost his/her wolf. Which leaves the Horse. Hodor has always been Bran's "horse." Complete with harness/saddle. I think there is more foreshadowing that Hodor would actually die, leaving Bran only able to "move" about either through a bird or other flying creature.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Agreed with preety much everything you said.Robert never actually loved Lyanna,he loved the idea of her,Ned even tells him that he never trully knew her.This basically makes us see that he saw her as something that belonged to him.Am i the only one who thinks that if Lyanna somehow survived and married Robert,Jon is again raised as Ned's bastard,he would still be drinking and whoring?Maybe not so much as he had with Cersei but still he would still continue to have the same attitude.

Well, if Lyanna survived, I think there is a 0% chance she marries Robert. But if by some weird set of circumstances Lyanna survived and married Robert, then yes, I agree that Robert would not be capable of being faithful to her. I don't think he even considers it to be wrong--I think he is just one of those men who thinks that he has the right to have his fun and it has no impact on his ability to be a good husband. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force.

[BearQueen87]

Agreed with preety much everything you said.Robert never actually loved Lyanna,he loved the idea of her,Ned even tells him that he never trully knew her.This basically makes us see that he saw her as something that belonged to him.Am i the only one who thinks that if Lyanna somehow survived and married Robert,Jon is again raised as Ned's bastard,he would still be drinking and whoring?Maybe not so much as he had with Cersei but still he would still continue to have the same attitude.

Robert is Robert. He wouldn't have changed fora anything. He might blame it on Cersei but Robert is a fairly simple man. He likes warring and whoring and he was good at both. He might have toned it down for a short while after marrying Lyanna, but nah...he'd go back to it eventually.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think that this part ties in with an earlier response to Robert's Rhaegar bashing, which we "go ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor". Ned retorts something about avenging Lyanna but in his mind, the talk of Rhaegar's honor evokes "promise me". I believe that both these parts indicate that Ned believed Rhaegar to be a man of honour.

He indeed believes that. But what I meant is that, it's exactly what Cat told him: he doesn't know Robert the King. Or, he didn't know the man he became. Just like Robert had a romanticised idea of Lyanna, Ned also had one about Robert. He knew his flaws, and he was likely to look aside because deep inside, Robert was a good natured man. Even I have to admit that.

But after the Rebellion, when he and Ned grew apart, Robert changed. Not only physically, but he grew bitter about Rhaegar. And at the same time, he became neglectful, cold, indifferent. All of that while Ned had to pass Jon as his bastard, with all the stigmas that that implied, and to Jon's own misery. He probably didn't care because, despite everything Rhaegar could have been or not, he also believed Robert was a good man and could have been a good King. It's a sacrifice he's willing to make, for the good of the Kingdom and the peace.

And then, he leaves Winterfell and he sees that Robert cares little for his family, not even his children; he has bastards everywhere, and some of them were killed (the twins, by Cersei), and he was so neglectful of his duties that the Kingdom is broke. The only thing that moved him into acting like a King was go after Dany, because he was Rhaegar's sister. I think THAT was the moment Ned realised what Cersei eventually says, "the wrong man returned from the Trident", and Jon's FATHER could have been not only a better father and husband, but a better King.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Going back to this for a second because I had a thought, but Bran is playing out a version of the Last Hero story. And in that story, that we get from Old Nan, everyone associated with the LH's adventure dies: his friends, his dog, his horse. Well, Bran might be loosing all those as well. Jojen is a goner, Meera is up in the air for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if she died as well. Bran might loose Summer, it's not the first time a Stark lost his/her wolf. Which leaves the Horse. Hodor has always been Bran's "horse." Complete with harness/saddle. I think there is more foreshadowing that Hodor would actually die, leaving Bran only able to "move" about either through a bird or other flying creature.

And we are back to agreeing with each other. :laugh: Yes, I think this line of reasoning is also supported by the foreshadowing that Bran (or at least Bran's body) is not leaving that tree.

[addicted to snow]

We also have Mel's vision of a man then a wolf and then a man again. That suggests to me he will return to his body (not the body of Hodor--a different man).

No, it does not suggest this at all... Mel's vision of Man then a Wolf & then a Man again does not in any way tell us which body Jon will be in, only that he'll be returning to a human body. She didn't say 'Jon, then a Wolf, then Jon again' did she??? This actually works in favor of my prediction of Jon residing in Hodor...

Well, actually, I think all she saw was Snow--not necessarily Jon Snow. It is up to the reader to determine that Snow means Jon Snow. The point is, I thought you indicated that Jon will NOT be AAR at all. If you are now switching to saying he will be AAR, just in Hodor's body, that is something different--but still not credible to me. Again, if Jon is in Hodor's body, he is not really Jon--he is Jodor (or something). I don't see such a hybrid entity fulfilling the vision.

I'm sorry you don't see it that way, GRRM seems to have a different view... Otherwise why prepare Hodor for this role???

I have complete faith in GRRM -- complete faith he will not go down a path that leads to confusing and unsatisfying story telling--which is why I think most of your predictions will not come to pass. Just to be clear, while I am not predicting that Jon will warg into Hodor, I don't consider it completely unlikely. What I consider virtually incompatible with the story arc that GRRM has set up for Jon is for Jon not to return to his own body at some point. Jon--the full and complete Jon--in his own body with his own original and in-tact soul--must fulfill the prophesies for the story to really hang together.

It seems to me that story is leading up to what I call a "Grand Resurrection" that will be the return of AAR to the story... AAR will have to have an adult body (he can't be reborn as a baby) in order to impact the story. There is also the prophesy of AAR being reborn of a certain Targ line, which suggest that AAR will be reborn into Jon Snow's body. Then there is the simple fact that Jon Snow's body will be the only 'empty' body that GRRM has set up to be utilized for this "Grand Resurrection"...

I'm thinking that when Jon dies, he will still be apart from his body. Mainly because Jon's body will be being used by AAR.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Well, if Lyanna survived, I think there is a 0% chance she marries Robert. But if by some weird set of circumstances Lyanna survived and married Robert, then yes, I agree that Robert would not be capable of being faithful to her. I don't think he even considers it to be wrong--I think he is just one of those men who thinks that he has the right to have his fun and it has no impact on his ability to be a good husband. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force.

I know there is probably zero chance she marries Robert but i wonder what would Lyanna do?She returns to WF with Jon and then what?Raises him,is he again passed as Ned's bastard? etc etc.

Robert is Robert. He wouldn't have changed fora anything. He might blame it on Cersei but Robert is a fairly simple man. He likes warring and whoring and he was good at both. He might have toned it down for a short while after marrying Lyanna, but nah...he'd go back to it eventually.

Agreed.I wonder through what would have happened if Rhaegar was the one who won.

[BearQueen87]

It seems to me that story is leading up to what I call a "Grand Resurrection" that will be the return of AAR to the story... AAR will have to have an adult body (he can't be reborn as a baby) in order to impact the story. There is also the prophesy of AAR being reborn of a certain Targ line, which suggest that AAR will be reborn into Jon Snow's body. Then there is the simple fact that Jon Snow's body will be the only 'empty' body that GRRM has set up to be utilized for this "Grand Resurrection"...

I'm thinking that when Jon dies, he will still be apart from his body. Mainly because Jon's body will be being used by AAR.

Rebirth does not have to mean a literal birth. It can be metaphorical. I don't think it means that someone is going to actually be born. It means that Jon will become who he was always meant to be--TPTWP. His abilities will become stronger, his decision making skills more resolute. I don't think there is some sort of entity that is going to come down and enter into a body and suddenly--there's AAR!

Agreed.I wonder through what would have happened if Rhaegar was the one who won.

Westeros would have been better off....? Robert was lucky that he had a VERY good Hand and married into an incredibly wealthy family.