addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Going back to this for a second because I had a thought, but Bran is playing out a version of the Last Hero story. And in that story, that we get from Old Nan, everyone associated with the LH's adventure dies: his friends, his dog, his horse. Well, Bran might be loosing all those as well. Jojen is a goner, Meera is up in the air for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if she died as well. Bran might loose Summer, it's not the first time a Stark lost his/her wolf. Which leaves the Horse. Hodor has always been Bran's "horse." Complete with harness/saddle. I think there is more foreshadowing that Hodor would actually die, leaving Bran only able to "move" about either through a bird or other flying creature. So we both think that Bran is going to loose Hodor... I think that Jon will take him & you think that he will die... Here are some reasons that I think Jon will take him: The Biggest Clue of all is HODOR's name... GRRM's foreshadowing of Hodor's crazy strength - we have yet to see it used Hodor being broken in for Jon to easily take The Foreshadowing of Jon/Ghost & Val traveling North places Hodor in right place to cross paths with Jon Bran can't be the winged wolf & roam around the North in Hodor (from a storytelling perspective) I could go on & on, but this is really not that difficult to puzzle out... Hodor has a lot of things that GRRM intends to use him for before he dies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 So we both think that Bran is going to loose Hodor... I think that Jon will take him & you think that he will die... Here are some reasons that I think Jon will take him: The Biggest Clue of all is HODOR's name... Help me out here...what does his name have to do with it? GRRM's foreshadowing of Hodor's crazy strength - we have yet to see it used Not so much foreshadowing as just a character trait. So he's strong? He spends all day with a boy on his back. Of course he needed to be strong. Hodor being broken in for Jon to easily take He's not broken, really. He just retreats to a place where Bran cannot reach him. could go on & on, but this is really not that difficult to puzzle out... Okay, see. I'm trying to have a polite conversation with you about this. No need to make me sounds stupid simply because I don't buy your theory that Jon is going to take over Hodor and wear him as a suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Rebirth does not have to mean a literal birth. It can be metaphorical. I don't think it means that someone is going to actually be born. It means that Jon will become who he was always meant to be--TPTWP. His abilities will become stronger, his decision making skills more resolute. I don't think there is some sort of entity that is going to come down and enter into a body and suddenly--there's AAR! Westeros would have been better off....? Robert was lucky that he had a VERY good Hand and married into an incredibly wealthy family. Westeros would have been better off for certain.I just wonder would Elia become a rival Lyanna?Would Aegon become an enemy to Jon?I mean look what happened with Bloodraven and Biterseel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Rebirth does not have to mean a literal birth. It can be metaphorical. I don't think it means that someone is going to actually be born. It means that Jon will become who he was always meant to be--TPTWP. His abilities will become stronger, his decision making skills more resolute. I don't think there is some sort of entity that is going to come down and enter into a body and suddenly--there's AAR! I think that AAR will be an old character(s) that have been written off by most readers for a long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Robert is Robert. He wouldn't have changed fora anything. He might blame it on Cersei but Robert is a fairly simple man. He likes warring and whoring and he was good at both. He might have toned it down for a short while after marrying Lyanna, but nah...he'd go back to it eventually. I wonder if at some point, just after Ned returned home, without "blaming" her, he thought something like "but Lyanna, you never knew Robert. If you had just gave him a chance to prove himself to you, you wouldn't have needed to find love in some other man!". There is a lot of blame in many people, tbh: Lyanna for acting rush, Brandon for being impulsive. Even Ned probably blamed himself for not finding out the truth (although he couldn't have known). Because when he gets to KL, he still has a good opinion of Robert. Is until the end when he pretty much wishes he could have run away with Rhaegar too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 I think that AAR will be an old character(s) that have been written off by most readers for a long time... Okay....you keep doing this. You keep saying something and then leaving me hanging and require me to ask more questions. Throw me a bone and tell me: Then who is AAR? Which old characters that I wrote off...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Help me out here...what does his name have to do with it? Hodur is blind god who would do no harm... but then he is manipulated by Loki into killing some other god, yada, yada, yada, the world ends... Hodor = Hodur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Jon can't warg another human being. The ONLY characters in the story powerful enough to do so are Bran and Bloodraven. To say that Jon, a completely untrained warg, would warg a man he doesn't even know is still alive or where he even is is absolutely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 Hodur is blind god who would do no harm... but then he is manipulated by Loki into killing some other god, yada, yada, yada, the world ends... Hodor = Hodur Okay, I know that stuff. But what does that have to do with JON? Unless you saying that Jon is akin to Loki in this story? Jon can't warg another human being. The ONLY characters in the story powerful enough to do so are Bran and Bloodraven. To say that Jon, a completely untrained warg, would warg a man he doesn't even know is still alive or where he even is is absolutely ridiculous. Jon, as an untrained warg, will do something utterly spectacular, but I don't think it's warging a man...*cough* here be dragons *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Okay....you keep doing this. You keep saying something and then leaving me hanging and require me to ask more questions. Throw me a bone and tell me: Then who is AAR? Which old characters that I wrote off...? My guess is the Great Wolf & the Burning Man who were dancing in Dany's tent with MMD... Ned & Khal Drogo combined... As MMD prophesised, Khal Drogo will come back... & with him being part Ned, Stoneheart will then be Nissa Nissa (Stoneheart is the only person still 'alive' in the story who could make a sword catch afire like AAR's sword is supposed to)... We never got an explanation as to why The Great Wolf & the Burning Man were dancing with MMD, and GRRM didn't include it for nothing... I imagine that the explanation, when we do get it, will have to do with AAR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Jon, as an untrained warg, will do something utterly spectacular, but I don't think it's warging a man...*cough* here be dragons *cough* Dunno... that would be like learning to ride a bike with your eyes covered. Except the bike is alive and breaths fire. I'll LMAO if Jon wargs a Dragon, can't control him, and the Dragon goes so crazy that it melts part of the Wall. And the Others starts to cross into Westeros :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Jon can't warg another human being. The ONLY characters in the story powerful enough to do so are Bran and Bloodraven. To say that Jon, a completely untrained warg, would warg a man he doesn't even know is still alive or where he even is is absolutely ridiculous. Bran has already broken Hodor in... Now anyone with the gift can skin change him... I don't understand the 2nd half of your post... I agree that Jon would not warg someone that he doesn't even know is alive or where he is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 My guess is the Great Wolf & the Burning Man who were dancing in Dany's tent with MMD... Ned & Khal Drogo combined... As MMD prophesised, Khal Drogo will come back... & with him being part Ned, Stoneheart will then be Nissa Nissa (Stoneheart is the only person still 'alive' in the story who could make a sword catch afire like AAR's sword is supposed to)... We never got an explanation as to why The Great Wolf & the Burning Man were dancing with MMD, and GRRM didn't include it for nothing... I imagine that the explanation, when we do get it, will have to do with AAR... Here are the problems I have with this... That "prophecy" from MMD isn't so much a prophecy as it is a big "Screw you, Daenerys Targaryen!" And in order for it to come to pass,if it was true, Dany must first carry a living child, which takes nine months, not to mention she must first conceive, something that is very hard for her to do. The mountains must also blow in the wind... Bran has already broken Hodor in... Now anyone with the gift can skin change him... I don't understand the 2nd half of your post... I agree that Jon would not warg someone that he doesn't even know is alive or where he is... Again, I don't think Hodor is broken. He just retreats to a place where Bran cannot reach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Bran has already broken Hodor in... Now anyone with the gift can skin change him... I don't understand the 2nd half of your post... I agree that Jon would not warg someone that he doesn't even know is alive or where he is... Okay, well, Jon doesn't know that Hodor is alive nor does he know where Hodor is. And as BQ87 said, Hodor isn't exactly an 'animal' that's been broken in. He doesn't like that Bran wargs him, so he simply hides. But that doesn't mean Hodor would let just ANYONE in his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Here are the problems I have with this... That "prophecy" from MMD isn't so much a prophecy as it is a big "Screw you, Daenerys Targaryen!" And in order for it to come to pass,if it was true, Dany must first carry a living child, which takes nine months, not to mention she must first conceive, something that is very hard for her to do. The mountains must also blow in the wind... Again, I don't think Hodor is broken. He just retreats to a place where Bran cannot reach him. Here are the problems I have with this... That "prophecy" from MMD isn't so much a prophecy as it is a big "Screw you, Daenerys Targaryen!" And in order for it to come to pass,if it was true, Dany must first carry a living child, which takes nine months, not to mention she must first conceive, something that is very hard for her to do. The mountains must also blow in the wind... That is an interesting interpretation Again, I don't think Hodor is broken. He just retreats to a place where Bran cannot reach him. "broken in" not broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Okay, well, Jon doesn't know that Hodor is alive nor does he know where Hodor is.And as BQ87 said, Hodor isn't exactly an 'animal' that's been broken in. He doesn't like that Bran wargs him, so he simply hides. But that doesn't mean Hodor would let just ANYONE in his mind. Well, when Jon/ghost stumble across him, then he will know where he is... --It is well foreshadowed that at some point someone will be warging something for the first time that another warg has already 'broken in'... I think it will be Hodor, there really are not many options on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 That is an interesting interpretation Am I going to regret asking what yours is? With the MMD "prophecy" the living child part is the only literal section; everything else is in metaphor. And then "comes to pass" in a metaphorical way. The sun (Quentyn) rises in the west (Westeros) and sets (dies) in the east (Essos), but it's not the literal sun. So if a metaphorical sun in prophecy = metaphorically coming to pass; then literal "quickening of your womb and bearing a living child" = literal conception and literal birth. And MMD never recognizes it as a prophecy, she's just spitting words at Dany cause she really hates her. Now, I happen to believe that Dany will have a living child before series end...but I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 He indeed believes that. But what I meant is that, it's exactly what Cat told him: he doesn't know Robert the King. Or, he didn't know the man he became. Just like Robert had a romanticised idea of Lyanna, Ned also had one about Robert. He knew his flaws, and he was likely to look aside because deep inside, Robert was a good natured man. Even I have to admit that. But after the Rebellion, when he and Ned grew apart, Robert changed. Not only physically, but he grew bitter about Rhaegar. And at the same time, he became neglectful, cold, indifferent. All of that while Ned had to pass Jon as his bastard, with all the stigmas that that implied, and to Jon's own misery. He probably didn't care because, despite everything Rhaegar could have been or not, he also believed Robert was a good man and could have been a good King. It's a sacrifice he's willing to make, for the good of the Kingdom and the peace. And then, he leaves Winterfell and he sees that Robert cares little for his family, not even his children; he has bastards everywhere, and some of them were killed (the twins, by Cersei), and he was so neglectful of his duties that the Kingdom is broke. The only thing that moved him into acting like a King was go after Dany, because he was Rhaegar's sister. I think THAT was the moment Ned realised what Cersei eventually says, "the wrong man returned from the Trident", and Jon's FATHER could have been not only a better father and husband, but a better King. Hmm.. First of all, that Robert has 16 bastards, doesn't mean he was ever aware about all of them. Varys claims he knows about 8, so shouldn't Robert know about 8 at the most as well? Perhaps even less? Did Robert even know about those twins from the Westerlands? If he didn't, it isn't that he didn't care about the fact that they had been killed. He didn't know about them, so he wouldn't know about their deaths either.. His trueborn children, I'd say he will have cared about them, at least a little.. He just wasn't all too interested in raising them. And I can see how Cersei kind of took over their education and raising them, leaving little for Robert to begin with. Had Robert had another wife, but with the same children, Robert might have been more involved (not all too much, but a little bit more.. Perhaps enough to make Joffrey feel more loved by his father, causing his personality to take a [small] turn for the better.) Jon can't warg another human being. The ONLY characters in the story powerful enough to do so are Bran and Bloodraven. To say that Jon, a completely untrained warg, would warg a man he doesn't even know is still alive or where he even is is absolutely ridiculous. I agree that Jon won't warg into a man that he believes to be dead. Personally, I think that if anyone will (continue to) warg Hodor, it will be Bran, not Jon. Okay, I know that stuff. But what does that have to do with JON? Unless you saying that Jon is akin to Loki in this story? Jon, as an untrained warg, will do something utterly spectacular, but I don't think it's warging a man...*cough* here be dragons *cough* I'd say that warging into your wolf whilst being in a coma as an untrained warg is rather special already ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Well, when Jon/ghost stumble across him, then he will know where he is... The books themselves state that it is 'impossible' to body jump once you have left your own body. If Jon has a second life with Ghost, that's where he's stuck. It would take a massive act of magic for Jon to be able to come back to his body (that's assuming he even dies in the first place). It is well foreshadowed that at some point someone will be warging something for the first time that another warg has already 'broken in'... I think it will be Hodor, there really are not many options on this It's not at ALL foreshadowed that Jon will warg Hodor. Nowhere. At all. In the books. Melisandre sees Jon's wolf face change back to HIS face, otherwise she wouldn't have said "now a man AGAIN". She would have mentioned it if Jon's face had turned into a wolf and then another man. Honestly, I think you are jumping to conclusions without any basis in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 The books themselves state that it is 'impossible' to body jump once you have left your own body. If Jon has a second life with Ghost, that's where he's stuck. It would take a massive act of magic for Jon to be able to come back to his body (that's assuming he even dies in the first place). *If* that's what happens then something with King's Blood perhaps (looks at Shireen...oh, dear...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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