smiling at all the wrong things

[RoamingRonin]

Theon is an ass. So is Jon. I doubt Jon took the time to think about how Theon might have felt.

Exactly.

no, I am not kidding you.

Are you going to make excuses for each and everything horrible thing he's done just so you can feel comfortable liking him as a character? This dude straight up killed children just because he couldn't get his hands on some other children. Just because he did it for reasons doesn't soften the blow. If he didn't take Winterfell he would have never had to make these decisions.

Gods. I honestly couldn't give two shits that Theon kicked the head. It its right in with his cocky attitude. I liked that about him. But to pretend it wasn't a negative action is just silly.

If youre squeamish you don't laugh and kick heads, nor do you encourage feeding people to direwolves literally while you can see two of them tearing out a persons entrails and eating them. Just... Come off it. Embrace what Theon is

This x 9000. I'm so tired of people trying to turn their characters into Saints just so they can feel comfortable liking them.

Theon is indeed a messed up guy, if he wasn't and he just killed people because he likes it then he would be cruel. but when reading his chapters you get to read his thoughts and a lot of those thoughts are about how guilty he feels, how he feels he has no choice, --

But he does have choices. Choices as in plural. More than one. Robb gives him a choice. Balon gives him a choice. Asha, Lewin... He has tons of choices but he always chooses the wrong thing.

I find it funny that people will say "Robb wasn't a good king because he was weak, and put too much into his honor." And then the same people will say about Theon, "Theon is an asshole, he shouldn't have betrayed Robb, and instead he should have ignored his father's wishes"... If Theon had done that then he would have died at the RR --

Lulz. You say that like his decision to take Winterfell led to a better fate than Robb's. Theon wishes he died at the Red Wedding, fighting for Robb. I'm sure their are corpses from the Red Wedding that look better than Theon does now.

If Theon had listened to Balon and Asha or anyone else, he'd either be resting in peace or back on Pyke. Maybe he'd even be at the Wall. Instead he listened to Ramsay.

[sifth]

of course slavery is wrong, but that doesn't make the people who live in a world where it is the norm all evil. the death penalty is wrong as well but I don't blame Ned (or anyone else in the world of asoiaf) for practicing it because it's normal in their world.

True, though I believe all those who made there living by selling slaves are evil. I also feel nothing for any of the slave owners suffering from Dany's attack. It really should break my heart that they have no more human slaves to abuse.

I mean your excuse is if someone is raised to something bad and thought that it is just, does that make them bad. Which I would argue yes it does. No one is ever bad for the sake of being bad, they just view it as right for their own sick reasons.

[INCBlackbird]

Exactly.

yep, Theon is an ass, that's actually partly why I like him.

Are you going to make excuses for each and everything horrible thing he's done just so you can feel comfortable liking him as a character? This dude straight up killed children just because he couldn't get his hands on some other children. Just because he did it for reasons doesn't soften the blow. If he didn't take Winterfell he would have never had to make these decisions.

I'm not making excuses, admitting the complexities of characters and their situations isn't making excuses.

btw, i'm a HUGE Ramsay fan and I kinda tend to encourage when people say he's a horrible person... you know why? because he is. so you assumption that I "excuse" theon's actions to be comfortable liking him makes no sense. I'm perfectly comfortable liking Ramsay;

This x 9000. I'm so tired of people trying to turn their characters into Saints just so they can feel comfortable liking them.

you mean like what lots of stark fans (mainly Ned fans) keep doing? yeah, it's annoying isn't it?

But he does have choices. Choices as in plural. More than one. Robb gives him a choice. Balon gives him a choice. Asha, Lewin... He has tons of choices but he always chooses the wrong thing.

the "choice" Robb gave him wasn't a choice, Balon and Asha were both horrible to him and Theon did the whole "if you tell me to do one thing I will defenitly not do it because I don't want to look like I'm doing it because you told me too" I and many many others do it all the time! that's what happens when people are assholes to you! the choice Lewin gave him he was going to take but Ramsay interrupted before he could. but either way, the point wasn't whether or not he had choices the point was that he felt like he didn't.

Lulz. You say that like his decision to take Winterfell led to a better fate than Robb's. Theon wishes he died at the Red Wedding, fighting for Robb. I'm sure their are corpses from the Red Wedding that look better than Theon does now.

If Theon had listened to Balon and Asha or anyone else, he'd either be resting in peace or back on Pyke. Maybe he'd even be at the Wall. Instead he listened to Ramsay.

and neither Robb nor Theon knew what their decisions would lead to so it's unfair to blame either of them for their fate. if you do, that's victim blaming.

[INCBlackbird]

True, though I believe all those who made there living by selling slaves are evil. I also feel nothing for any of the slave owners suffering from Dany's attack. It really should break my heart that they have no more human slaves to abuse.

I mean your excuse is if someone is raised to something bad and thought that it is just, does that make them bad. Which I would argue yes it does. No one is ever bad for the sake of being bad, they just view it as right for their own sick reasons.

so if you and I grew up in a world where slavery was still the norm and our parents and their parents before them owned slaves, we would be evil?

it's complicated to me because I don't think they're bad, but I don't think they're good either. it does bother me when people don't question the norms of their society that are wrong (in our current society as well!) the ones that do question it I call good people, the ones that don't I call neither good nor bad but more like... frustrating and annoying.

but yes there are people who do bad things for the sake of being bad, take ramsay for example. those I call bad.

[sifth]

so if you and I grew up in a world where slavery was still the norm and our parents and their parents before them owned slaves, we would be evil?

it's complicated to me because I don't think they're bad, but I don't think they're good either. it does bother me when people don't question the norms of their society that are wrong (in our current society as well!) the ones that do question it I call good people, the ones that don't I call neither good nor bad but more like... frustrating and annoying.

but yes there are people who do bad things for the sake of being bad, take ramsay for example. those I call bad.

Ramsay is insane.

[INCBlackbird]

Ramsay is insane.

insane is a relative term. ramsay has sadistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder. lots of people have personality disorders and psychological issues (including myself) does that make one insane? not nessacarily. does that mean they are not responsible for their actions ? well... it reduces responsibility if you ask me. I tend to look at responsibility in grades and those grades are determined by personal limitations (which includes psychological problems) and circemstances. but ultimately ramsay's personality disorders got them to be bad for the sake of being bad and he carries responsibility for that.

[sifth]

insane is a relative term. ramsay has sadistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder. lots of people have personality disorders and psychological issues (including myself) does that make one insane? not nessacarily. does that mean they are not responsible for their actions ? well... it reduces responsibility if you ask me. I tend to look at responsibility in grades and those grades are determined by personal limitations (which includes psychological problems) and circemstances. but ultimately ramsay's personality disorders got them to be bad for the sake of being bad and he carries responsibility for that.

Yea I couldn't disagree with you more. Ramsay is evil because he's mentally challenged not because he suddenly woke up one day and chose to be evil. I work with people with special needs for a living, and I see cases like his all the time.

I still want to see the little shit burn, but I know why he's evil.

[INCBlackbird]

Yea I couldn't disagree with you more. Ramsay is evil because he's mentally challenged not because he suddenly woke up one day and chose to be evil. I work with people with special needs for a living, and I see cases like his all the time.

I still want to see the little shit burn, but I know why he's evil.

so you blame Theon and not Ramsay? but Theon is "mentally challanged" too, he's got compensatory narcissistic personality disorder.

I think it's important to take into account personality orders, like I said it lowers the grade of responsibility. you can't absolve them of responsibility completely. especially not Ramsay, I mean there's a difference with someone who does things without remembering them or something like that. but Ramsay has empathy problems and enjoys hurting others, he knows perfectly well what he's doing and he does it because it gives him pleasure.

[Lopsang]

Theon is indeed a messed up guy, if he wasn't and he just killed people because he likes it then he would be cruel. but when reading his chapters you get to read his thoughts and a lot of those thoughts are about how guilty he feels, how he feels he has no choice, him being completely delusional, and most of all him wondering why he is not enjoying his winnings! so which quote exactly tells you that he is cruel? there is no quote where he enjoys the things he or his men do in winterfell, there's only quotes about how much guilt it causes him. he can't even be an iron born because stealing from the people he killed "leaves a bitter taste in his mouth"

So you can only be cruel when you enjoy the evil things you do?

James Arryn said this the other day in a different thread, but I will paraphrase him: "Nobody is casually evil at breakfast. It is during times of crisis in which you lay out your moral foundation." I agree wholeheartedly. In times of crisis, like after Blackwater, Davos tries killing Melisandre. He also tries shipping off Edric Storm before he can die. These are both times of great crisis for him; he could have just as easily not been as leal and honest to Stannis in his counsel, not gotten involved and just stood back, and he would have remained safe and yadda yadda. However, it is in the actions he took that he is such a good and moral character. If he didn't do the moral, good thing in those situations, it could be understood; you could have said "Well, Davos didn't save Edric because how could he have done that without facing Stannis' ire or getting executed?" But he DID anyway, which is why he is a moral character. You can say how the situation led Theon to do things he did, which were cruel to many people, like Robb and the citizens of Winterfell, and qualify his actions with the fact that he is in identity crises and whatever else. But it is not enough to pardon him, and his cruel actions remain cruel actions. Cruelty and vileness can occur with good intentions.

[Lopsang]

so you blame Theon and not Ramsay? but Theon is "mentally challanged" too, he's got compensatory narcissistic personality disorder.

I think it's important to take into account personality orders, like I said it lowers the grade of responsibility. you can't absolve them of responsibility completely. especially not Ramsay, I mean there's a difference with someone who does things without remembering them or something like that. but Ramsay has empathy problems and enjoys hurting others, he knows perfectly well what he's doing and he does it because it gives him pleasure.

You're psychologically diagnosing fictional characters. Nowhere does it say Theon has some personality disorder. Just because what WebMD says about NPD and Theon match up doesn't mean he has NPD. And it still is not enough to pardon his actions. I don't think he was so mentally debilitated that he could not think for himself and the immoral choices he made were inevitable.

[INCBlackbird]

So you can only be cruel when you enjoy the evil things you do?

James Arryn said this the other day in a different thread, but I will paraphrase him: "Nobody is casually evil at breakfast. It is during times of crisis in which you lay out your moral foundation." I agree wholeheartedly. In times of crisis, like after Blackwater, Davos tries killing Melisandre. He also tries shipping off Edric Storm before he can die. These are both times of great crisis for him; he could have just as easily not been as leal and honest to Stannis in his counsel, not gotten involved and just stood back, and he would have remained safe and yadda yadda. However, it is in the actions he took that he is such a good and moral character. If he didn't do the moral, good thing in those situations, it could be understood; you could have said "Well, Davos didn't save Edric because how could he have done that without facing Stannis' ire or getting executed?" But he DID anyway, which is why he is a moral character. You can say how the situation led Theon to do things he did, which were cruel to many people, like Robb and the citizens of Winterfell, and qualify his actions with the fact that he is in identity crises and whatever else. But it is not enough to pardon him, and his cruel actions remain cruel actions. Cruelty and vileness can occur with good intentions.

we're talking about him as a person. you can call his actions cruel not him as a person.

cru•el (ˈkru əl)

1. willfully causing pain or distress to others.

2. enjoying the pain or distress of others.

and well, I replied to what he said and half agreed with him.

Davos is a special case, Davos is actually one of my favourite characters and the only one that is not one of my favorites because I find him interesting but becuase he is simply the best person in those books, who also has 90% of the braincells of all characters put together! he is a special case though, he is that rare person who always does the right thing. which makes him better then good, but not everyone is like that and you can't expect characters to be like that, like I said they are rare. for a character to not always do the right thing in a situation of crisis and have problems dealing with those crisis and make wrong decisions does not make them a bad person, it merely makes them not perfect.

[INCBlackbird]

You're psychologically diagnosing fictional characters. Nowhere does it say Theon has some personality disorder. Just because what WebMD says about NPD and Theon match up doesn't mean he has NPD. And it still is not enough to pardon his actions. I don't think he was so mentally debilitated that he could not think for himself and the immoral choices he made were inevitable.

yep I'm psychologically diagonosing a fictional character, it's fun! and Theon seems to really fit the profile of NPD, but even if he doesn't, you yourself said he's "messed up" he has psychological problems. and no it does not pardon his actions, I believe that's what I was saying because sifth seemed to be saying that Ramsay doesn't carry responsibility for his actions because he has mental problems. and I say that it lowers the grade of responsibility, but the responsibility is still there, responsibility is always there. people are always created by their environment and they are always limited by their personality and sometimes that includes psychological problems as well, but everyone still carries responsibility for their own actions.

[Karmarni]

Take it that Theon is a jackass. It's setup that his character is going to bite it one day.

No, not a fan.

[sifth]

so you blame Theon and not Ramsay? but Theon is "mentally challanged" too, he's got compensatory narcissistic personality disorder.

I think it's important to take into account personality orders, like I said it lowers the grade of responsibility. you can't absolve them of responsibility completely. especially not Ramsay, I mean there's a difference with someone who does things without remembering them or something like that. but Ramsay has empathy problems and enjoys hurting others, he knows perfectly well what he's doing and he does it because it gives him pleasure.

Theon is not insane (prior to becoming Reek) he's desperate. He killed those two children in a last ditch attempt at not appearing weak to his men. Theon even planned everything out with; who to send away and who he could trust. Ramsay put the idea in his head, Theon chose to go through with it. Just cause I know why Theon did it, doesn't make it right.

[INCBlackbird]

Theon is not insane (prior to becoming Reek) he's desperate. He killed those two children in a last ditch attempt at not appearing weak to his men. Theon even planned everything out with; who to send away and who he could trust. Ramsay put the idea in his head, Theon chose to go through with it. Just cause I know why Theon did it, doesn't make it right.

but why do you call Ramsay insane and not Theon? they both have personality disorders...

[sifth]

but why do you call Ramsay insane and not Theon? they both have personality disorders...

Theon once he becomes Reek is insane. Theon prior to becoming Reek is just a lonely boy looking for his place in the world.

[INCBlackbird]

Theon once he becomes Reek is insane. Theon prior to becoming Reek is just a lonely boy looking for his place in the world.

well I agree that he's not insane but he has personality disorders, just like Ramsay does, so what I'm asking is why do you consider Ramsay insane and not Theon?

also, I actually don't think he's insane in his Reek chapters, he's traumatised but he's way more sane then people give him credit for in my opinion.

[sifth]

well I agree that he's not insane but he has personality disorders, just like Ramsay does, so what I'm asking is why do you consider Ramsay insane and not Theon?

also, I actually don't think he's insane in his Reek chapters, he's traumatised but he's way more sane then people give him credit for in my opinion.

It could have something to do with him flaying people for sport or him forcing a woman to eat her own fingers. Or his new hobby of taking Theon apart piece by piece.

These all seem the acts of a rationally sane human don't they.

[RoamingRonin]

yep, Theon is an ass, that's actually partly why I like him.

And that's exactly why he's currently gelded, hobbled and looks like a 90 year old man.

[Lord Reaver]

And that's exactly why he's currently gelded, hobbled and looks like a 90 year old man.

No, the reason for that is because he trusted some random northman over his sister. Lesson for everyone, never trust those treacherous northmen.