smiling at all the wrong things

[Dimples]

It all depends on the cause. Robb was seeking revenge against House Lannister. Theon attacked House Stark.

It was revenge for all his years of imprisonment by the Starks.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm not saying he's not guilty at all, of course he is, but there's a difference between what happened and someone killing two kids in cold blood.

No there isn't. What would the difference be? Did Theon kill them in self-defense? Was it a crime of passion, done in the heat of the moment? Nope, it was premeditated, cold-blooded murder.

Theon is in my top 3 characters in ASOIAF, but this is getting into fanboy/apologist territory

[Lee-Sensei]

Jon shouldn't have to. Besides, it doesn't change anything. Someone gets executed and the first thing you do is disrespect their body, that says something extremely negative about you. If he wanted to defy his captors he could have refused to take part in the execution. That would be the smart thing to do. Ned would not have forced him. Robb and Jon could have presented Ice if necessary.

Kicking the head wasn't an act of defiance. It was just Theon acting tough but looking stupid. The usual, basically.

Hey man. Me personally, I'd condemn the guy who killed him for being scared of zombies. Jon shouldn't have to. That kind of makes him an ass so he's not one to judge. He bemoans the fact that Cat doesn't love him without realizing he has a family that loves him and a home. He has it better than most. Better than Theon. He has neither. He's kind of a whiny brat and never really considered that maybe Theon had a reason he was the way he was.

There's nothing stupid about what he did. He kicked a head. Big deal.

[Bryanfury]

ETA: Also, you say you hold everyone to the same standards, and yet I never see you decry any of the actions of Ned, Robb etc. All I see is you jumping into threads to bash Theon.

This leads me to conclude that you say one thing and do another. Or to put it a bit more succinctly: You're full of it.

You see what you want to see; in this case, anyone who isn't licking Theon's boots must be bashing him. I like Theon. He still did bad things that there isn't a moral justification for.

[Dragon in the North]

How did this turn into a Stark vs. Theon thread? I thought this was about Theon and his actions.

[The Wolves]

Hey man. Me personally, I'd condemn the guy who killed him for being scared of zombies. Jon shouldn't have to. That kind of makes him an ass so he's not one to judge. He bemoans the fact that Cat doesn't love him without realizing he has a family that loves him and home to go home to. He has it better than most. Better than Theon. He has neither. He's kind of a whiny brat and never really considered that maybe Theon had a reason he was the way he was.

There's nothing stupid about what he did. He kicked a head. Big deal.

Jon does not moan about Cat not loving him, ugh. And Theon never really helps his image he dismisses Jon because he's a bastard and than walks around arrogant because he's the heir to the Iron Islands.

[RoamingRonin]

Hey man. Me personally, I'd condemn the guy who killed him for being scared of zombies. Jon shouldn't have to. That kind of makes him an ass so he's not one to judge. He bemoans the fact that Cat doesn't love him without realizing he has a family that loves him and home to go home to. He has it better than most. Better than Theon. He has neither. He's kind of a whiny brat and never really considered that maybe Theon had a reason he was the way he was.

Everyone's got problems, some more than others. It's all with how you deal with them. Jon grew up within a reasonable amount of time and no on had to die for him to get a grip. Theon pointed fingers and didn't accept responsibility until he started losing limbs.

There's nothing stupid about what he did. He kicked a head. Big deal.

Just say that then and stop making excuses. Sheesh.

[unitron]

Theon is Eddie Haskell.

And the reason for having double standards is that if one breaks you've still got a spare. :D

[Lee-Sensei]

Jon does not moan about Cat not loving him, ugh. And Theon never really helps his image he dismisses Jon because he's a bastard and than walks around arrogant because he's the heir to the Iron Islands.

Yes. Theon does dismiss Jon because he's a bastard... as most High Lords would. In this case though, we're talking about Jon judging Theon and the fact is Jon never even stopped to wonder if maybe their was a reason Theon's an asshole.

Everyone's got problems, some more than others. It's all with how you deal with them. Jon grew up within a reasonable amount of time and no on had to die for him to get a grip. Theon pointed fingers and didn't accept responsibility until he started losing limbs.

Just say that then and stop making excuses. Sheesh.

Theon killed some Northmen. Big whoop. He's Iron Born. It's what they do. Robb killed Westernmen... Jaime killed Rivermen. These things happen in war.

If all you want to do is call Theon an ass, RR it's done. Now we might look at the reasons for it. This thread is about Theon smiling at all the wrong things, so looking at the reason he's the way he is kind of makes sense, don't you think. It's not about excuses. It's about character analysis.

[nicoleb]

Yea, we're done here if your defending slavery to me. The very notion of what your saying makes me sick.

You do realize that many of the goods you purchase from stores are made, distributed and supported by slave trade, right? Children in third-world countries are getting paid, like, 14 cents an hour to work in conditions we can't even begin to imagine. By purchasing things from such businesses, by not going carefully over which businesses don't support child labor every time you buy something, you are supporting slavery. Sure, it's less direct than the example in ASoIaF – it's not happening as close to you, but you are aware that it happens, and you still support the businesses that enable it. So I suppose it's okay for you to be crucified because you're doing nothing to stop this? Incidentally, your arguments would be better if you stopped trying to put words into the mouths of your detractors.

Them: "I think slavery is wrong, but not all the slave-owners were responsible for the slave trade (just like you're not responsible for third-world country labor)."

You: "OMG, you're your supporting slavery! We are DONE! >:("

^ That's what it looks like from here. BTW, if you think killing and torturing anyone is acceptable, no matter what they did, you are 100% wrong and have serious empathy problems. Watch this, and maybe you'll understand. If not, I pity you.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

The quotation of this thread title comes from Theon's conversation with Esgred / Asha. It goes:

"I knew a man once who told me that I smiled at the wrong things.”

“Do you?”

“Only by the lights of those who smile at nothing.”

First, genuine question, who is the man? Is it specified? Ned? Rodrik? Lewin? Jon Snow? Robb?

I don't think the latter two would count as men in Theon's eyes. I'm thinking Rodrik on the whole; a good contrast to his fellow master-at-arms Dagmer, who gave Theon more smiles than Balon Greyjoy and Ned Stark put together, who wears a perpetual and involuntary smile.

Second - who is Theon primarily thinking of by 'those who smile at nothing'? Dour Starks, including the sullen bastard Jon Snow? Or his recently remet uncle Aeron, and by implication his true father and the ironborn in general? Or some combination?

I'm so glad Theon's smile is back, albeit horrifying, in his latest chapter!

Note also that House Greyjoy rather clearly divides into smilers and non-smilers. Smilers: Euron, Theon, Asha (and kinda pinch-of-kraken Dagmer). Non-smilers: Balon (though I think he does laugh scornfully) and Victarion (who hates laughter). Aeron, of course, shifts from one category to the other...

Another thing I've just thought, while we're on the wider family - the older Greyjoy brothers have something in common with their enemies the Baratheons, but plus the unnatural, anomalous Euron. Balon/Robert = charismatic, legendary but past-it war-leader; Victarion/Stannis = solid plodder; old Aeron/Renly = chilled out wit.

[INCBlackbird]

The quotation of this thread title comes from Theon's conversation with Esgred / Asha. It goes:

"I knew a man once who told me that I smiled at the wrong things.”

“Do you?”

“Only by the lights of those who smile at nothing.”

First, genuine question, who is the man? Is it specified? Ned? Rodrik? Lewin? Jon Snow? Robb?

I don't think the latter two would count as men in Theon's eyes. I'm thinking Rodrik on the whole; a good contrast to his fellow master-at-arms Dagmer, who gave Theon more smiles than Balon Greyjoy and Ned Stark put together, who wears a perpetual and involuntary smile.

Second - who is Theon primarily thinking of by 'those who smile at nothing'? Dour Starks, including the sullen bastard Jon Snow? Or his recently remet uncle Aeron, and by implication his true father and the ironborn in general? Or some combination?

I'm so glad Theon's smile is back, albeit horrifying, in his latest chapter!

Note also that House Greyjoy rather clearly divides into smilers and non-smilers. Smilers: Euron, Theon, Asha (and kinda pinch-of-kraken Dagmer). Non-smilers: Balon (though I think he does laugh scornfully) and Victarion (who hates laughter). Aeron, of course, shifts from one category to the other...

Another thing I've just thought, while we're on the wider family - the older Greyjoy brothers have something in common with their enemies the Baratheons, but plus the unnatural, anomalous Euron. Balon/Robert = charismatic, legendary but past-it war-leader; Victarion/Stannis = solid plodder; old Aeron/Renly = chilled out wit.

sorry I've been absent! I was vidding and once I start I don't stop until my video is done! and now it's done! and since it's a theon vid I am going to share :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SWxRkG_-W0

anyways, to adress the post. I never actually wondered who that man was tbh. but now that you asked the question i'm all curious. I actually think it could be Luwin... he seems like the kind of guy who would actually tell theon that while everyone else just thought it, you know? Rodrik is also a possibility of course and an interesting one as you pointed out.

I think he's thinking about Balon, Aeron, Ned Stark... Theon does tend to spend time thinking about the people he didn't get any smiles from or did get smiles from. it's important to him.

i'm so glad his smile is back too! I think that is one of the signs that Theon is back! he's changed however, I think he's gotten rid of the defense mechanisms that limited him from being the real him and I think we're going to see the real Theon in the winds of winter, the one who doesn't lie to himself and pretend to be someone he's not.

that's a really good point about the greyjoys being devided into smilers and non smilers! I never thought about that before but that's very true!

something that's also interesting in my opinion is the parallels between Theon and Aeron! both of them the youngest son, both of them considered weak and abused by their older brothers both go from smiling to not smiling after spending time in captivity... and there is more...

[Fisch]

On a more serious note, I think your have merit in saying that the smiling is a sort of reaction formation; however, the truth is, Theon has a lot of POV chapters were we get an inner working into his mind, and while he struggles with self-identity, he still is a messed-up guy. He uses machismo to cover up him being "weak", but that doesn't justify his actions/personality and it doesn't mean he is without cruelty. If anything, it just makes it worse.

I would be less hard on him than you were in the first half of this post, but I'd agree with all of this.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

The quotation of this thread title comes from Theon's conversation with Esgred / Asha. It goes:

"I knew a man once who told me that I smiled at the wrong things.”

“Do you?”

“Only by the lights of those who smile at nothing.”

First, genuine question, who is the man? Is it specified?

I tended to imply it was Ser Rodrick Cassell.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

Theon is the most realistic character in the series. I can't even delve into how complexed his character is. People saying shit about Theon should consider how his life has gone and where it is now. His Reek PoV's want to make me cry. imagine your only sense of cherishment being the little bastard who's been eating at you and after days of starvation you could finally puts it's warm meat around your mouth and then you hear footsteps walking towards you and think that this only sense of cruel luxury is being taken away from you?:( The man has gone through more then any other man in Westeros. I wish Theon could have a happy ending but everything is just so broken for him. As a successful trader/fisher living quietly at sea would be nice. A child or a wife too. :(

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

On the subject of Theon laughing,i agree. If you lived in Medieval times and you saw a mans head come clean off despite you fearing it you would make yourself show you're not a craven and hide your true emotions on what just happened. Like Theon says "It's better to be cruel than weak"

[The Wolves]

^But you can be strong without being cruel.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

"a modest lordling."

"Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him."

Personally, I love Theon in ACOK. Go on with your bad self Theon. All you need is a cool nickname.

[Bren]

Theon was just shallow , superficial, beheading sa Night Watch's desertet seems the cool thing to do at the moment, so he's cheering as the ass he is