INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 It could have something to do with him flaying people for sport or him forcing a woman to eat her own fingers. Or his new hobby of taking Theon apart piece by piece.These all seem the acts of a rationally sane human don't they.so ramsay is not responsible for the things he does because they are horrible and normal people don't do that. whereas Theon is responsible because the things he does aren't that horrible compared to what ramsay does? I don't understand your logic here. ramsay enjoys hurting others because he has personality disorders, Theon has personality disorders that keep him stuck in a constant interpersonal crisis and lead him to do bad things. both of them did bad things because of their personality disorder the difference is that Theon didn't enjoy it, didn't do it on purpose and feels guilty about it. neither of them are insane, both of them are limited because of personality disorders which in Theon's case limits him from making good choices in Ramsay's case enables him to do whatever the hell he wants to other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 And that's exactly why he's currently gelded, hobbled and looks like a 90 year old man. nope, that was Ramsay actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 nope, that was Ramsay actually... ... and who trusted Ramsay? Who took Winterfell and released "Reek"? That's right: Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 ... and who trusted Ramsay? Who took Winterfell and released "Reek"? That's right: Theon. victim blaming... classy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 victim blaming... classy Pearl clutching... Annoying. Actions have consequences. Victim blaming is best left to real world situations. Theon isn't an actual person. We are supposed to analyze and discuss him as a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 The thing that seems to motivate Theon early on is his outsized pride. His pride is a reaction against the conditions he's lived in throughout his life up to that point: not well treated by his father, and frequently harmed by his older brothers - and then taken to Winterfell to live as a prisoner - - and then finding out just how fucked up and ghetto his ironborn family is once he sees what a normal family looks like. What else does this boy have but pride to cling to as some measure of self worth? (Much like Viserys, but without so much responsibility piled on his shoulders.) Theon plays the "prince" to not be the prisoner. He acts like a jerk to show he doesn't care about this or that. That's why he's playing the womanizer, or the guy who laughs at death, or the guy who's a man unlike Robb and Jon and Joff who are still children, the guy who is the best archer in Winterfell, etc. Really, Theon does not know what sort of person to be, and it gets worse once he goes home, because his kin scorn him for even trying. Interesting to note that of all his uncles, Aeron was his favourite one - the laughing warrior & youngest brother who did ... well, everything Theon tries to do. Then he goes home and suddenly Aeron is this uptight religious jerk who rejects him immediately. Theon was proud to have survived and thrived and come home a man, and the first thing that happens is this all gets torn down. His uncle views him as tainted, his sister views him as soft, and his father does both at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Actions have consequences. Victim blaming is best left to real world situations. Theon isn't an actual person. We are supposed to analyze and discuss him as a character.I take it you blame Ned for trusting Littlefinger too, then?People, even fictional characters, are responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of the treacherous bastards whose hands they may fall into.LF is responsible for stabbing Ned in the back, Ramsay is responsible for torturing Theon and killing everyone in Winterfell, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game of Thrones Reference Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 so ramsay is not responsible for the things he does because they are horrible and normal people don't do that. whereas Theon is responsible because the things he does aren't that horrible compared to what ramsay does? I don't understand your logic here. ramsay enjoys hurting others because he has personality disorders, Theon has personality disorders that keep him stuck in a constant interpersonal crisis and lead him to do bad things. both of them did bad things because of their personality disorder the difference is that Theon didn't enjoy it, didn't do it on purpose and feels guilty about it. neither of them are insane, both of them are limited because of personality disorders which in Theon's case limits him from making good choices in Ramsay's case enables him to do whatever the hell he wants to other people. You keep saying Theon has a personality disorder. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure you need to have a one-on-one conversation with him before you could come to a diagnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I don't really care for Theon either. Although, this video I saw a while back made me like him more, and made his actions make sense. He wanted to please his family, as anyone would want to do, but he chose the wrong family. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsSVTt5kgZk&list=LLyrL3GY0K4QBygnL0u3Yp2Q&index=106 That video is heartbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 so ramsay is not responsible for the things he does because they are horrible and normal people don't do that. whereas Theon is responsible because the things he does aren't that horrible compared to what ramsay does? I don't understand your logic here. ramsay enjoys hurting others because he has personality disorders, Theon has personality disorders that keep him stuck in a constant interpersonal crisis and lead him to do bad things. both of them did bad things because of their personality disorder the difference is that Theon didn't enjoy it, didn't do it on purpose and feels guilty about it. neither of them are insane, both of them are limited because of personality disorders which in Theon's case limits him from making good choices in Ramsay's case enables him to do whatever the hell he wants to other people. I never said Ramsay wasn't evil or that he shouldn't be killed for his actions. I was simply telling you the difference between someone insane and someone who isn't. Don't forget killing the kids was Ramsay's idea, Theon was just willing to go along with it because he was desperate. If anything I don't understand your logic for not seeing Reek was insane. The guy eats rats, views Ramsay as just, and doesn't even remember his own name until half way through the book. If anything by your logic no one should ever be held accountable for their actions, which is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimples Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 You keep saying Theon has a personality disorder. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure you need to have a one-on-one conversation with him before you could come to a diagnosis. Being able to see inside his head also helps. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I take it you blame Ned for trusting Littlefinger too, then?People, even fictional characters, are responsible for their own actions, not for the actions of the treacherous bastards whose hands they may fall into.LF is responsible for stabbing Ned in the back, Ramsay is responsible for torturing Theon and killing everyone in Winterfell, and so on.When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.You can't hide behind the term "victim blaming" and hope your fav doesn't get judged for the decisions they have made. Some characters fall into the wrong hands. Others walk willingly.Was Ned responsible for Littlefinger's betrayal? Of course not. That's not what I'm saying (and I'm sure you know that). But was Ned warned of a possible betrayal? Yes he was. He was suspicious of Littlefinger from the start but chose to side with him in the end. He chose to give Cersei a chance. He did not accept Renly's help. He made several choices which contributed to his downfall.Theon is no different. He chose to go against Robb. He chose to defy his father and ignore his sister's advice. He chose to trust Ramsay. He didn't fall into Ramsay's hands by accident. The choices he made led him to Ramsay. When you trust the wrong people and make the wrong moves you help seal your own fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 You keep saying Theon has a personality disorder. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure you need to have a one-on-one conversation with him before you could come to a diagnosis. I think being able to actually read his thoughts is even more usefull then having a conversation with him. as far as I can tell he acts/thinks very much like someone with narcissistic personality disorder. but besides that it's just really clear he has psychological problems (who wouldn't have them in his situation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Poor theon is the smeagol of the world of ice and fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 I never said Ramsay wasn't evil or that he shouldn't be killed for his actions. I was simply telling you the difference between someone insane and someone who isn't. Don't forget killing the kids was Ramsay's idea, Theon was just willing to go along with it because he was desperate. If anything I don't understand your logic for not seeing Reek was insane. The guy eats rats, views Ramsay as just, and doesn't even remember his own name until half way through the book. If anything by your logic no one should ever be held accountable for their actions, which is just silly. you said that he is not bad for the sake of being bad because he is insane... and I said that I don't understand your defenition of insane. actually you haven't given a difinition just said that you think ramsay is insane because he enjoys doing horrible things. by that logic anyone who does horrible enough things is insane, but where is that line, when has someone commited things horrible enough to deserve the label of being insane? I am very well aware that ramsay came up with the idea of killing the kids and why theon went along with it, theon haters are usually the ones who chose to forget that. I don't think Theon or Ramsay is insane and I don't see Reek as insane either, just traumatised. all three of them (treating theon and reek as two separate people for the moment) have very different psychological problems. Reek is mostly traumatised and scared out of his mind. he eats a rat because well... he is starved... he tells himself Ramsay is good to him as a defense mechanism, it's a way to reduce anxiety in for a victim in frightening situations. and the rhyming thing is also a result from extreme anxiety. I have a lot of anxiety problems and when I take the plane for example I check a million times if I have my ticket, even though I know it's there i'm scared it'll have suddenly dissappeared even though that's not even possible. I see the rhyming thing as kind of the same thing, Theon is scared of not pleasing Ramsay by forgetting his name so he comes up with the rhyming system as a way to remind himself, even though he won't forget he feels safer when he has a device to help remind himself, it reduces his anxiety. now I think that if you want to claim anyone to be insane, you should give a definition of what insanity is, otherwise we have nothing to base ourselves on discussing this. actually I said exactly the oppesite, I explained exactly why everyone SHOULD be held accountable for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 you said that he is not bad for the sake of being bad because he is insane... and I said that I don't understand your defenition of insane. actually you haven't given a difinition just said that you think ramsay is insane because he enjoys doing horrible things. by that logic anyone who does horrible enough things is insane, but where is that line, when has someone commited things horrible enough to deserve the label of being insane? I am very well aware that ramsay came up with the idea of killing the kids and why theon went along with it, theon haters are usually the ones who chose to forget that. I don't think Theon or Ramsay is insane and I don't see Reek as insane either, just traumatised. all three of them (treating theon and reek as two separate people for the moment) have very different psychological problems. Reek is mostly traumatised and scared out of his mind. he eats a rat because well... he is starved... he tells himself Ramsay is good to him as a defense mechanism, it's a way to reduce anxiety in for a victim in frightening situations. and the rhyming thing is also a result from extreme anxiety. I have a lot of anxiety problems and when I take the plane for example I check a million times if I have my ticket, even though I know it's there i'm scared it'll have suddenly dissappeared even though that's not even possible. I see the rhyming thing as kind of the same thing, Theon is scared of not pleasing Ramsay by forgetting his name so he comes up with the rhyming system as a way to remind himself, even though he won't forget he feels safer when he has a device to help remind himself, it reduces his anxiety. now I think that if you want to claim anyone to be insane, you should give a definition of what insanity is, otherwise we have nothing to base ourselves on discussing this. actually I said exactly the oppesite, I explained exactly why everyone SHOULD be held accountable for their actions. And yet you feel slavers should be allowed to get away with slaving. They're not bad people, they were just taught that hurting people and treating them like cattle is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 @silth they were taugth that yes, and some of them were horrible people who treated their slaves horribly just because they could (probably because they had personality disorders similar to ramsay's) some were not quite that horrible to them but didn't stop to think about their slaves as people because they were taught that they were worth less. some of them were horrified by the first two kinds of people and treated their slaves kindly, saw them as people and did the best they could for them. and I'm sure there were people from all three cathegories between the 163 Dany crucified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 @silth they were taugth that yes, and some of them were horrible people who treated their slaves horribly just because they could (probably because they had personality disorders similar to ramsay's) some were not quite that horrible to them but didn't stop to think about their slaves as people because they were taught that they were worth less. some of them were horrified by the first two kinds of people and treated their slaves kindly, saw them as people and did the best they could for them. and I'm sure there were people from all three cathegories between the 163 Dany crucified. Yea, we're done here if your defending slavery to me. The very notion of what your saying makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 Yea, we're done here if your defending slavery to me. The very notion of what your saying makes me sick. when did I defend slavery? I'm just not looking at it all black and white... and you were actually defending crucifying people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 when did I defend slavery? I'm just not looking at it all black and white... and you were actually defending crucifying people...They were slavers, let them burn I say. Serves them right for treating people like dogs and cattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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