Why do people associate The North with Honour?

[Lee-Sensei]

Theon spent the majority of his life in the North, he knows more about their histories and modern day politics than he does of the Ironborn.

Ned 15, Cat 25, Sansa 25, Arya 34, Bran 21 and Jon 42 giving us a total of 162 chapters. Personally, I would include Theon

In Essos we have Dany and her 31 chapters.

In the South we have the other POV's giving us 155, including Theon for argument's sake.

Actually, he spebt 10 years in the Ion Islands and 9 in the North.

[oursisthefury69]

Theon spent the majority of his life in the North, he knows more about their histories and modern day politics than he does of the Ironborn.

Ned 15, Cat 25, Sansa 25, Arya 34, Bran 21 and Jon 42 giving us a total of 162 chapters. Personally, I would include Theon

In Essos we have Dany and her 31 chapters.

In the South we have the other POV's giving us 155, including Theon for argument's sake.

More than half of the POVs are done from the perspective of a Northmen or North related.

Jon, Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Bran, Ned with 162 POVs. Then add Theon ones.

Really, don't start saying BS before making a little research.

Ned, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Catelyn. Four northerners and a women that as been living there for most of her adult life. 4 Ironborn, 3 Westerlanders, 2 Stormlander, 3 Dornish, 0 Valesmen, etc. 5>4>3>2>1

You clearly don't understand the POV struture. every chapter is from a characters pespective and all it's biases, opinions and perceptions influence the how the story is presented to the reader. Only by comparing the POV does the reader notice the diferences between characters beliefs and story facts. you are not looking from the outside, you are looking through the characters pespective, that why we read their toughts. All the characters opinions colour the information presented to the reader. One of the reasons why the Daenerys story is so discussed is because for most of it there's only her pespective and nothing more. If she doesn't know or acknowledge it's existance, neither does the reader. When you have 5 POV talking about the Northern honor while the other POV don't bother o even engage in the subject, yes the reader is influenced to belief the only ones that adress the subject. That why multiple re-readings of ASOIAF have such a transformative effect in the reader opinions, because only with time and comparative evidence by other POV it can re-evaluate the notions presented.

Now, i could resort to your habit of willful denial and condescention with barely veiled insults, but no. I like to discuss other opinions with well reasoned arguments or humor and you clearly are not up for it.

Pretty poor attempt at changing the subject to make yourselves look better, "the majority" was always in reference to the amount of different pov characters, not the amount of total chapters which is beyond random

[oursisthefury69]

I've read the series through only twice (maybe I should do it a couple more times?) and the first I heard of northern honor was on these boards. NED is honorable, but only because he's Ned, not because he's genetically of the north. He was brought up in the south, by Arryn, so he's got a lot of southern influence.

I don't think Martin wants to encourage tribalism. Starks have some magical qualities like warging, but that says nothing about their honor.

Exactly the point against all this terribly misplaced use of the word propaganda; The only thing affiliated with this series that actually propagates certain biases and concepts is these boards. If one were to read the books independently without frequenting these boards then none of them would have this apparent feeling of the concept of superior northern morals being thrust upon them

[mattyp1186]

I think honor is like the question of what is universially good...it is determined by the culture, the times, experiences etc, etc, etc, which are ever changing and whose to say what is the correct way to live? I think it would be sweet if the theories around the North and a pact with the Others were true and the blood sacrifices and all that. i think thats sweet and makes the Northmen even more bad ass.

[Dicer]

I associate the North with honor because of things like this:

Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly.

“He does,” his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

Until Jon said, "Edd, fetch me a block," and unsheathed Longclaw.

“I won’t hurt him… much,” Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher’s boy. Arya went for him.

[Fat Mac]

I associate the North with honor because of things like this:

That all sounds like Stark, not the North.

[Witch]

I think Ned is a break to the norm. Partly because of Jon Arryn. See Brandon or Rickard, they don't seem too honorable. Also, older Starks are often addressed as hard people. I support the theory of the sacrifices too.

I think we are biased to see the Starks (and the North) as honorable, just because we only know the younger generation, who were raised by Cat and Ned, both people who lived for family, duty and honor.

[Dicer]

That all sounds like Stark, not the North.

Ned specifically says

Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

“The First Men believed that the judge who called for death should wield the sword, and in the north we hold to that still."

It seems to be more of a First Men thing who have links more strongly to the North. And the Starks, for generations, stand for the North. They are the caretakers of the North. The Northerners trusted and were loyal to them. I am not sure how we can disassociate the Starks from the North and say that 'it's the Starks, not the North'.

The Northern concepts of honor may differ from our own modern sensibilities and it seems to be a more primal and medieval concept of honor but it does seem to be a First men/Northern thing from Ned's POV. He attributes his sense of honor to the North and not to Jon Arryn. And as others have pointed out, Jon Arryn was hardly an honorable man.

Also

"In the north , we hold the laws of hospitality sacred still"

"Once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree … Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands … this night, at least"

[Lord Damian]

House Stark seems to have an overall sence of honor and justice. Ned and his father in particular seem to have had that reputation. Roose Bolton feared them both. That is good enough for me.

[Eli Stark]

Ned is so honorable that he offsets all northern lacks of honor and then some. End of story.

[Fat Mac]

House Stark seems to have an overall sence of honor and justice. Ned and his father in particular seem to have had that reputation. Roose Bolton feared them both. That is good enough for me.

I agree Ned and maybe Rickard were honorable. But what about Brandon? Certainly taking the virginity of noble girls that you for sure aren't marrying isn't honorable? Would Brandon be more the exception than the rule?

[kimim]

Ned specifically says

It seems to be more of a First Men thing who have links more strongly to the North. And the Starks, for generations, stand for the North. They are the caretakers of the North. The Northerners trusted and were loyal to them. I am not sure how we can disassociate the Starks from the North and say that 'it's the Starks, not the North'.

The Northern concepts of honor may differ from our own modern sensibilities and it seems to be a more primal and medieval concept of honor but it does seem to be a First men/Northern thing from Ned's POV. He attributes his sense of honor to the North and not to Jon Arryn. And as others have pointed out, Jon Arryn was hardly a honorable man.

Also

Look at the situation when Stannis is off trying to save Winterfell. The northern folk with him are more invested than the southerners, not surprising, cuz it's Winterfell. The end of the road, though, there sits Arnolf Karstark, a northern lord, who's made a deal with Roose Bolton, another northern lord. Arnolf will pretend to side with Stannis, then turn around and betray him when he least expects it. Not honorable.

[hear me bore]

I agree Ned and maybe Rickard were honorable. But what about Brandon? Certainly taking the virginity of noble girls that you for sure aren't marrying isn't honorable? Would Brandon be more the exception than the rule?

LOL, what a sinner. Those poor noble girls.

[Fat Mac]

LOL, what a sinner. Those poor noble girls.

Deflowering noble girls is eventually what got Robb killed ;)

[hear me bore]

Deflowering noble girls is eventually what got Robb killed ;)

I think the marrying part is what got him killed. Hit and quit it would have worked much better. Walder Frey is a pimp himself and wouldn't have minded that.

[Darksnider05]

Yeah hit it and quit it is far more acceptable in Westeros for men.

[Dicer]

Look at the situation when Stannis is off trying to save Winterfell. The northern folk with him are more invested than the southerners, not surprising, cuz it's Winterfell. The end of the road, though, there sits Arnolf Karstark, a northern lord, who's made a deal with Roose Bolton, another northern lord. Arnolf will pretend to side with Stannis, then turn around and betray him when he least expects it. Not honorable.

The first men and the Northerners followed certain customs that they deemed honorable. For example, let's take guest right. I think that's an honorable custom, that allows for things like negotiations and peace deals to happen in good faith. But let us see how different people approach it.

Mance Raydar says:

"Once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree … Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands … this night, at least"

Roose Bolton says:

"In the north , we hold the laws of hospitality sacred still"

People like Ned and Mance respect the Northern customs, while someone like Roose used it for his own twisted purpose. Does Bolton's misuse of this custom, make all Northerners dishonorable? Including Mance and Ned?

I find First Men customs like guest right, doing one's dirty work oneself etc to satisfy some notions of honor. And since First Men customs are more strongly linked to the North, I associate honor more closely with them than to any of the other seven Kingdoms. Most of the Northern POV characters also behave with more honor than the others. That does not imply that characters from other kingdoms (Brienne, Davos, Doran) are not honorable. Just that in the books, the North is more strongly associated with the concept of honor. And I think that's what GRRM intended. To imply that the concept of northern honor is a myth is not, IMO, right, especially when someone like Ned strongly attributes his own sense of honor to the North.

I agree Ned and maybe Rickard were honorable. But what about Brandon? Certainly taking the virginity of noble girls that you for sure aren't marrying isn't honorable? Would Brandon be more the exception than the rule?

I find it amusing that you say that the Northerners are only honorable because of the Starks and when it's pointed out that the North has some customs that can be deemed honorable, the dishonorable Starks are pulled out to show how the North is not really honorable.

[Father of Hosts]

I think in this case there is a misconstrued sense that loyalty to the Starks equals the North to be deemed more honorable. While I would say that loyalty does not always equal honor, there are some aspects of this unrepentant loyalty to the Starks that could be deemed honorable.

I would agree that the North doesn't have any heightened sense of honor as a whole. It's pretty hard to say that about any region, ever. Everyone has their Boltons, Freys etc.

The perception of honor comes from the way the Starks ruled and treated their people. This in turn, colors the way their people think about them. From all of the previously mentioned quotes the only truly predominating theme of 8000 years of Stark rule is: Harsh but Fair. Which is a perfect way to describe the entire North. Fairness in their dealings is why a large part of the North loves them and remains loyal to them.

When you read about swinging the sword or the way Brandon 'Ice Eyes' comes down and brutally eradicates the slavers or that they executed wards, the thing that has to be derived is that the punishment fit the crime. Or, so as not to get this sidetracked, you knew what the fuck you were getting into if you crossed the Starks. They didn't have special rules or treatment. If they told you not to displease them or they would chop off your kids head, they followed through. Similarly, if your lands were attacked and held by slavers, they killed them all in a brutal way. Not honorable per se, but fair.

Maidens could walk the Kings road because every man there knew that if the word ever got back to the Lord of Winterfell, that man would be put to death or sent to the wall. Even Roose Bolton knew that so he killed the husband and took efforts to keep the girl quiet. The point being, that while they may not have always been the nicest people, they were always fair and exacted punishment in the same way. That may not be honorable, but the North respects this attitude, even if begrudgingly.

In a way, this might be its own type of honor. Its why men still fight for "The Ned's" little girl, why Wylla gives such an impassioned speech and the Mormonts only know one King in the North, because above all, harshness and fairness have ruled the North for 8000 years. I like the fact that the Northmen fight on these grounds. It's honorable in its own way, but doesn't speak to the entire region as being "holier than thou."

[Dicer]

When you read about swinging the sword or the way Brandon 'Ice Eyes' comes down and brutally eradicates the slavers or that they executed wards, the thing that has to be derived is that the punishment fit the crime. Or, so as not to get this sidetracked, you knew what the fuck you were getting into if you crossed the Starks. They didn't have special rules or treatment. If they told you not to displease them or they would chop off your kids head, they followed through. Similarly, if your lands were attacked and held by slavers, they killed them all in a brutal way. Not honorable per se, but fair.

Maidens could walk the Kings road because every man there knew that if the word ever got back to the Lord of Winterfell, that man would be put to death or sent to the wall. Even Roose Bolton knew that so he killed the husband and took efforts to keep the girl quiet. The point being, that while they may not have always been the nicest people, they were always fair and exacted punishment in the same way. That may not be honorable, but the North respects this attitude, even if begrudgingly.

In a way, this might be its own type of honor. Its why men still fight for "The Ned's" little girl, why Wylla gives such an impassioned speech and the Mormonts only know one King in the North, because above all, harshness and fairness have ruled the North for 8000 years. I like the fact that the Northmen fight on these grounds. It's honorable in its own way, but doesn't speak to the entire region as being "holier than thou."

I agree. Like this shows:

“None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

“Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

In what world would killing children be honorable? But if Jon had killed the child hostages when the Wildlings attacked, he would have been fair and just and satisfied the clans. Brutal and medieval, but that's Northern honor.

[Father of Hosts]

I agree. Like this shows:

In what world would killing children be honorable? But if Jon had killed the child hostages when the Wildlings attacked, he would have been fair and just and satisfied the clans. Brutal and medieval, but that's Northern honor.

I find it very telling that Jon inherently understands that reminding the Northern Clans that he's a son of Eddard Stark and not that he executed Slynt, is the better approach to the situation

Essentially, his understanding of politics and history of the region is to remind them of his ancestry and lineage. Not to tell them he executed a man that played a large part in Ned's death. He knows the clans will respect that lineage as opposed to the opposite. Telling them he executed Slynt leaves room for doubt, or that they could speculate he did it only to avenge his father. The way he tells them serves as a nail in the coffin for that debate. They respect the Stark tradition more than they ever would any action Jon has taken.

"I will be fair but I will not falter." So to speak.