Why do people associate The North with Honour?

[new djinn]

Anything that Manderly or anyone else does against the Freys is not dishonorable in my eyes they have a right to their vengeance no matter how disturbing it is.

Look at you, playing Rickard Karstark simulator!

[new djinn]

The Umbers are loyal.

Only after finger removal surgery.

[new djinn]

More so its only Roose who isnt realistically

Classic case of somebody using the word propaganda on here without apparently knowing what it means; There's nothing propagating the reading audience into believing any one specific thing, its to interpret as you will and feel as you feel

.

Isn't the term Northern honor used more often then any other kind of honor? Don't the Northmen present themselves as morally superiors to others. Don't they boast of said honor regularly? Isn't the story told by a POV system that presents everything distorted by the opinions and biases of the protagonists, in which northern characters outnumbers others?

[Victor227]

The northerners are as much a pack of opportunistic jackals as everyone else, that's human nature for you. Manderly didn't cannibalize Freys because it was the right and honorable thing to do. He's a vengeful, opportunistic man who saw an opportunity to extract some opportunistic vengeance in as brutal a manner as he felt he could get away with. His dancing the line of Guest Right was a fun bit of rules lawyering, but really, it's all about what they have to gain.

Roose set up his new power bloc in the North with the Ryswells, Dustins, and Freys as his chief backers. Of course the other northern houses are going to play the field and try to work out an advantage for themselves, especially with bitter feelings over Roose's Frey allies. Honor is a fine rallying cry, but doing what's best for your own house tends to be what wins the day in allegiance.

[oursisthefury69]

#63

Isn't the term Northern honor used more often then any other kind of honor? Don't the Northmen present themselves as morally superiors to others. Don't they boast of said honor regularly? Isn't the story told by a POV system that presents everything distorted by the opinions and biases of the protagonists, in which northern characters outnumbers others?

Not sure how any of this is even a specific response to what you quoted by why not

1. I'm not sure you tell me. And how many "kinds" of honor are there? Id probably say the term honor is used more than Northern honor, if your asking if "Northern honor" is the most frequently used geographic adjective used in association with honor in series then yea i guess good point.

2. Cant say that they do regularly boast of moral superiority in comparison to other regions, and if theres ever anything of the sort its probably post Red wedding in reference to The Lannisters and Freys breaking what the guess right everyone held ultimately sacred, so in any instance of this even somewhat debateably occuring its more so a bashing on the lack of honor on the part of Lannisters and Freys than a boasting of their own superiority.

3. In hindsight you clearly would have been better off taking this array of poorly sarcastic questions to wiki or the small questions section, but for the record just because you phrase your post in a series of disingenuous questions doesnt mean people wont be able to read through your overall bs and lack of knowledge pertaining to the series. . Northern characters outnumber the other Pov characters...... Well since your clearly so uncertain about everything your posting about, maybe go ahead and look up all the POV characters and the definition of the word outnumber, and you'll find your wrong

[new djinn]

#63

Not sure how any of this is even a specific response to what you quoted by why not

1. I'm not sure you tell me. And how many "kinds" of honor are there? Id probably say the term honor is used more than Northern honor, if your asking if "Northern honor" is the most frequently used geographic adjective used in association with honor in series then yea i guess good point.

2. Cant say that they do regularly boast of moral superiority in comparison to other regions, and if theres ever anything of the sort its probably post Red wedding in reference to The Lannisters and Freys breaking what the guess right everyone held ultimately sacred, so in any instance of this even somewhat debateably occuring its more so a bashing on the lack of honor on the part of Lannisters and Freys than a boasting of their own superiority.

3. In hindsight you clearly would have been better off taking this array of poorly sarcastic questions to wiki or the small questions section, but for the record just because you phrase your post in a series of disingenuous questions doesnt mean people wont be able to read through your overall bs and lack of knowledge pertaining to the series. . Northern characters outnumber the other Pov characters...... Well since your clearly so uncertain about everything your posting about, maybe go ahead and look up all the POV characters and the definition of the word outnumber, and you'll find your wrong

Well, you are the one that questioned the notion that a Northern propaganda even existed. If northern characters POV's consistently refer to the honor of their countrymen, in comparison to their southern conterparts, boast of their superiority of behaviour in relation to southerners and used it to justify their political agenda, that's propaganda. Go re-read Bran's or Ned's chapters, since you are so forgetful(or disingenous) of the story, the very first apperence of the Northern Lords is all about political manipulation and gaining advantage, exactly what Ned critisizes about KL. The Greatjon's reasoning for the KitN declaration is rife with propaganda, in how the southerners know nothing of the Wall or North, how Bear island knows no other king but a Stark(while forgettiing the 315 years under Targaryen/Baratheon kingship), how the Manderly's are looked down upon over their Southern ancestry, how the First Men ancestry of southerners is only mentioned when it's convinient, etc.

Perhaps you should actually present some arguments to support your assertions against a northern propaganda instead of a dismissal devoid of any content.

[David Selig]

Only after finger removal surgery.

Yeah, Greatjon was openly threatening Robb and demanding to be made a commander of the armies.

[KINGpanther]

I find it ironic that the North values honour yet Northmen only follow strong leaders.

[Mithras]

There is no point to associate honour with an entire region (not even on family level). It's an individual quality.

Honourable does not mean good and gentle. It's more like keeping to one's word. A person can be honourable and simultaneously very hard and harsh.

IMO, the idea that Ned is honourable because of his Arryn education is a misconception and contradicted by the book facts.

Ned's honour has nothing to do with Arryn upbringing. Just compare Ned's and Jon Arryn's reactions to the aftermath of the sack of KL:

Jon Arryn prioritized pragmatic matters of reality to what honour requires, in contrast to Ned's consistent behaviour.

It was Jon Arryns suggestion (and insistence) that Robert marries Cersei so that Tywin Lannister is tied to the new regime, thus practically rewarding his (very specific and not so honourable) conduct during the rebellion. Compare this to Ned's urge that justice must be done...

Later on, Jon Arryn went to Dorne to settle things there. No talk of jutice... He only cared to make sure of Dorne's inaction with the compromise that Robert would not set foot there. Not even secondary culprits as scapegoats like Lorch and/or the Mountain were punished. Not so honourable conduct from Jon Arryn's part, only a pragmatic attitude to strengthen the new regime.

On the contrary, Ned Stark has acted repeatedly chosing the path of honour instead of the pragmatic, the price being puting himself and his family in danger and paying for it. Not so Jon Arryn, I say.

This.

But also this:

Bronn grinned. “You’re bold as any sellsword, I’ll give you that. How did you know I’d take your part?”

“Know?” Tyrion squatted awkwardly on his stunted legs to build the fire. “I tossed the dice. Back at the inn, you and Chiggen helped take me captive. Why? The others saw it as their duty, for the honor of the lords they served, but not you two. You had no lord, no duty, and precious little honor, so why trouble to involve yourselves?” He took out his knife and whittled some thin strips of bark off one of the sticks he’d gathered, to serve as kindling. “Well, why do sellswords do anything? For gold. You were thinking Lady Catelyn would reward you for your help, perhaps even take you into her service. Here, that should do, I hope. Do you have a flint?”

Bronn slid two fingers into the pouch at his belt and tossed down a flint. Tyrion caught it in the air.

“My thanks,” he said. “The thing is, you did not know the Starks. Lord Eddard is a proud, honorable, and honest man, and his lady wife is worse. Oh, no doubt she would have found a coin or two for you when this was all over, and pressed it in your hand with a polite word and a look of distaste, but that’s the most you could have hoped for. The Starks look for courage and loyalty and honor in the men they choose to serve them, and if truth be told, you and Chiggen were lowborn scum.”

I think the bolded part is a general Stark trait, not specific to Ned or Cat.

[oursisthefury69]

Well, you are the one that questioned the notion that a Northern propaganda even existed. If northern characters POV's consistently refer to the honor of their countrymen, in comparison to their southern conterparts, boast of their superiority of behaviour in relation to southerners and used it to justify their political agenda, that's propaganda. Go re-read Bran's or Ned's chapters, since you are so forgetful(or disingenous) of the story, the very first apperence of the Northern Lords is all about political manipulation and gaining advantage, exactly what Ned critisizes about KL. The Greatjon's reasoning for the KitN declaration is rife with propaganda, in how the southerners know nothing of the Wall or North, how Bear island knows no other king but a Stark(while forgettiing the 315 years under Targaryen/Baratheon kingship), how the Manderly's are looked down upon over their Southern ancestry, how the First Men ancestry of southerners is only mentioned when it's convinient, etc.

Perhaps you should actually present some arguments to support your assertions against a northern propaganda instead of a dismissal devoid of any content.

Yea i mean you can post alot and still mean nothing.

You clearly dont know what your talking about seeing as you had just said the Northern povs outnumber the rest in the series.

And theres no point of even looking into every ludicrous sentence in this post. There's no propaganda in series period. You clearly dont understand either the story ( of which you dont even know the POV characters clearly) or the words your using. There's nothing propagating the reader into believing in any one concept or bias, there's a multitude of diverse POv characters (something you clearly dont understand) who give us what they give us and its for the reader to make of it what they will and feel as they feel; "Propaganda" in series isnt existent and cant be, you the reader are looking in from the outside with a much broader perspective and loads more knowledge than any single character, theres no singular perspective bias or concept being constantly forced upon readers. You read the multitude of varying perspectives. You form the opinions on your own.

The only type of possible propaganda applicable to this series would be say if you went on idk a website or something, where a large grouping of people constantly posted their biased opinions, and over time people stopped developing their own opinions/ideas in favor of what were now predominant concepts taken to be certainty's without personal observing/questioning. See thats what propaganda is, If you pick up the books, read them, and feel as you feel than theres no "propaganda" involved.

And feel free to continually post your elongated nonsense hammering at the same nonexistent/irrelevant concept as a means of sidetracking from everything you directed towards me before that, which was for the record just a series of what were supposed to be rhetorical/sarcastic questions and were actually indicators of you not knowing what your talking about, i.e making the northerners out to be these weirdos who only ever speak towards their honor in comparison to other geographical regions, and being all "and arent we presented to the series through a limited perspective ssytem where the northern characters outnumber the rest," which of course is just completely untrue and you trying to apparently change the text to meet your theory istead of the other way around; And just overall i wouldnt get so chippy and high nd mighty in my posts if i just posted something as blatantly false as the northern charcters outnumber the rest of the character perspectives

[Light a wight tonight]

Karstarks, Boltons, Jorah selling slaves, Frey pies, etc. You have to actively disregard a lot to give the North a blanket "honorable" designation. Some people just have a need for stainless heroes.

[Light a wight tonight]

Don't the Northmen present themselves as morally superiors to others. Don't they boast of said honor regularly?

In fact, no, this isn't the case. Where do you get this? Or is it sarcasm that's indistinguishable from sincerity?

[oursisthefury69]

In fact, no, this isn't the case. Where do you get this? Or is it sarcasm that's indistinguishable from sincerity?

It came from a series of sarcastic rhetoric which was actually all untrue/misinformed

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And just overall i wouldnt get so chippy and high nd mighty in my posts if i just posted something as blatantly false as the northern charcters outnumber the rest of the character perspectives

They do, though. The majority of the POV's are Northern or have a strong connection to the North such as Cat and Theon.

[oursisthefury69]

They do, though. The majority of the POV's are Northern or have a strong connection to the North such as Cat and Theon

Ok well firstly among those 2 ill give cat but not Theon, id say he's much more connected to the Iron Islands.

And secondly and much more importantly you are entirely wrong, do yourself a favor and compose or look up a list of all the character perspectives that exist in the actual series (not just your own fiction) and prove yourself wrong; Not everything is up for debate, there's x amount of Pov characters so far and the Northern ones arent any type of nevermind the "majority" (especially if you only wana count the ones thatre still alive)

And how do you even accrue 1600 posts without knowing the Pov characters? Maybe you already half realize your wrong since you thrw in that "or have a strong connection" addendum; I cant wait to see the reasoning's behind some of these

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Ok well firstly among those 2 ill give cat but not Theon, id say he's much more connected to the Iron Islands.

And secondly and much more importantly you are entirely wrong, do yourself a favor and compose or look up a list of all the character perspectives that exist in the actual series (not just your own fiction) and prove yourself wrong; Not everything is up for debate, there's x amount of Pov characters so far and the Northern ones arent any type of nevermind the "majority" (especially if you only wana count the ones thatre still alive)

And how do you even accrue 1600 posts without knowing the Pov characters? Maybe you already half realize your wrong since you thrw in that "or have a strong connection" addendum; I cant wait to see the reasoning's behind some of these

Theon spent the majority of his life in the North, he knows more about their histories and modern day politics than he does of the Ironborn.

Ned 15, Cat 25, Sansa 25, Arya 34, Bran 21 and Jon 42 giving us a total of 162 chapters. Personally, I would include Theon

In Essos we have Dany and her 31 chapters.

In the South we have the other POV's giving us 155, including Theon for argument's sake.

[Ingelheim]

Ok well firstly among those 2 ill give cat but not Theon, id say he's much more connected to the Iron Islands.

And secondly and much more importantly you are entirely wrong, do yourself a favor and compose or look up a list of all the character perspectives that exist in the actual series (not just your own fiction) and prove yourself wrong; Not everything is up for debate, there's x amount of Pov characters so far and the Northern ones arent any type of nevermind the "majority" (especially if you only wana count the ones thatre still alive)

And how do you even accrue 1600 posts without knowing the Pov characters? Maybe you already half realize your wrong since you thrw in that "or have a strong connection" addendum; I cant wait to see the reasoning's behind some of these

More than half of the POVs are done from the perspective of a Northmen or North related.

Jon, Arya, Sansa, Catelyn, Bran, Ned with 162 POVs. Then add Theon ones.

Really, don't start saying BS before making a little research.

[new djinn]

Yea i mean you can post alot and still mean nothing.

You clearly dont know what your talking about seeing as you had just said the Northern povs outnumber the rest in the series.

And theres no point of even looking into every ludicrous sentence in this post. There's no propaganda in series period. You clearly dont understand either the story ( of which you dont even know the POV characters clearly) or the words your using. There's nothing propagating the reader into believing in any one concept or bias, there's a multitude of diverse POv characters (something you clearly dont understand) who give us what they give us and its for the reader to make of it what they will and feel as they feel; "Propaganda" in series isnt existent and cant be, you the reader are looking in from the outside with a much broader perspective and loads more knowledge than any single character, theres no singular perspective bias or concept being constantly forced upon readers. You read the multitude of varying perspectives. You form the opinions on your own.

The only type of possible propaganda applicable to this series would be say if you went on idk a website or something, where a large grouping of people constantly posted their biased opinions, and over time people stopped developing their own opinions/ideas in favor of what were now predominant concepts taken to be certainty's without personal observing/questioning. See thats what propaganda is, If you pick up the books, read them, and feel as you feel than theres no "propaganda" involved.

And feel free to continually post your elongated nonsense hammering at the same nonexistent/irrelevant concept as a means of sidetracking from everything you directed towards me before that, which was for the record just a series of what were supposed to be rhetorical/sarcastic questions and were actually indicators of you not knowing what your talking about, i.e making the northerners out to be these weirdos who only ever speak towards their honor in comparison to other geographical regions, and being all "and arent we presented to the series through a limited perspective ssytem where the northern characters outnumber the rest," which of course is just completely untrue and you trying to apparently change the text to meet your theory istead of the other way around; And just overall i wouldnt get so chippy and high nd mighty in my posts if i just posted something as blatantly false as the northern charcters outnumber the rest of the character perspectives

Ned, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Catelyn. Four northerners and a women that as been living there for most of her adult life. 4 Ironborn, 3 Westerlanders, 2 Stormlander, 3 Dornish, 0 Valesmen, etc. 5>4>3>2>1

You clearly don't understand the POV struture. every chapter is from a characters pespective and all it's biases, opinions and perceptions influence the how the story is presented to the reader. Only by comparing the POV does the reader notice the diferences between characters beliefs and story facts. you are not looking from the outside, you are looking through the characters pespective, that why we read their toughts. All the characters opinions colour the information presented to the reader. One of the reasons why the Daenerys story is so discussed is because for most of it there's only her pespective and nothing more. If she doesn't know or acknowledge it's existance, neither does the reader. When you have 5 POV talking about the Northern honor while the other POV don't bother o even engage in the subject, yes the reader is influenced to belief the only ones that adress the subject. That why multiple re-readings of ASOIAF have such a transformative effect in the reader opinions, because only with time and comparative evidence by other POV it can re-evaluate the notions presented.

Now, i could resort to your habit of willful denial and condescention with barely veiled insults, but no. I like to discuss other opinions with well reasoned arguments or humor and you clearly are not up for it.

[new djinn]

In fact, no, this isn't the case. Where do you get this? Or is it sarcasm that's indistinguishable from sincerity?

No, sorry. You are right, Northmen don't boast of their honor. They do boast of their superioraty in other things(fighting skill, manlyness, ancestry), but honor is more of a sticky thing for the Starks, not Northmen in general. My bad.

[kimim]

Karstarks, Boltons, Jorah selling slaves, Frey pies, etc. You have to actively disregard a lot to give the North a blanket "honorable" designation. Some people just have a need for stainless heroes.

I've read the series through only twice (maybe I should do it a couple more times?) and the first I heard of northern honor was on these boards. NED is honorable, but only because he's Ned, not because he's genetically of the north. He was brought up in the south, by Arryn, so he's got a lot of southern influence.

I don't think Martin wants to encourage tribalism. Starks have some magical qualities like warging, but that says nothing about their honor.