Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Did anyone else notice that Dorne looks like a shoe?

Yep. Westeros looks like a leg. And Dorne is the foot. East cost are the toes :lol:

[Chebyshov]

Can anyone here draw? I have a request for Oberyn and Ellaria doing Star Wars cosplay where Oberyn is Princess Leia and Ellaria is Han Solo. Because why the fuck not?

Guess who was given a paper agenda at her noon meeting? http://i.imgur.com/rXdFywH.jpg?1

(The answer is no, I can't...photoshop/illustrator are more in my wheelhouse).

I can't draw males (I'm jealous of that Victarion!!!). Only chibis or cute ones. And I have a big list of ASOIAF stuff to draw, starting with Victarion pushing his ship across the sand and the Three Kingsguards and a Baby :lol:

The KG NEEDS to happen. (Also, check out her other Vic: the url I was going to post keeps 404ing me, but it's in her gallery, if you're so inclined).

[Grape Jackanape]

I've never seen that bit from the con. Very interesting. I wonder which VK's lair Quentyn & Co. went to explore? The Red Mountains seem to be the home region of more than one.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Gah, fantastic work once again Cheb. I had no idea there were that many bits in the text that could be used to support the idea, well done expanding it. THE VULTURE KING COMMITTEE RESTS ITS CASE :commie: :commie: :commie:

One thing that started to bug me while I was doing the reread (it pertains more to Doran's arc than to Arianne's, so I'll ask it here) is, do we know when Mellario left Dorne? How old was Arianne? This is a question that screams for our learned colleague Rhaenys_Targaryen but any insight is good insight!

[Julia Martell]

Gah, fantastic work once again Cheb. I had no idea there were that many bits in the text that could be used to support the idea, well done expanding it. THE VULTURE KING COMMITTEE RESTS ITS CASE :commie: :commie: :commie:

One thing that started to bug me while I was doing the reread (it pertains more to Doran's arc than to Arianne's, so I'll ask it here) is, do we know when Mellario left Dorne? How old was Arianne? This is a question that screams for our learned colleague Rhaenys_Targaryen but any insight is good insight!

She'll probably tell you this: They've spent half their marriage apart, which makes it 13 -14 years ago that she left.

So basically Operation have Baby Trystane to Save Marriage = Failure.

[Dornish Vinegar]

She'll probably tell you this: They've spent half their marriage apart, which makes it 13 -14 years ago that she left.

So basically Operation have Baby Trystane to Save Marriage = Failure.

Ah that's right, Trystane as the marriage-saver, I forgot about that conversation. Thank you Julia! Follow up questions to come after I dig up the relevant quotes...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Because have babies to save marriages always work..! :lol:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Gah, fantastic work once again Cheb. I had no idea there were that many bits in the text that could be used to support the idea, well done expanding it. THE VULTURE KING COMMITTEE RESTS ITS CASE :commie: :commie: :commie:

One thing that started to bug me while I was doing the reread (it pertains more to Doran's arc than to Arianne's, so I'll ask it here) is, do we know when Mellario left Dorne? How old was Arianne? This is a question that screams for our learned colleague Rhaenys_Targaryen but any insight is good insight!

She'll probably tell you this: They've spent half their marriage apart, which makes it 13 -14 years ago that she left.

So basically Operation have Baby Trystane to Save Marriage = Failure.

Arianne was born in 276AC, and Doran and Mellario were betrothed still in 272AC/273AC. So they married somewhere in between 272AC and 276AC, though probably, as seems to be a trend in asoiaf, not all too long before Mellario became pregnant with Arianne (so in 274/275AC, I'd say). That means that by 300AC, they had been married for 25 or 26 years. Spending half of your marriage apart would indicate that Mellario had left roughly 13 years ago, around 287AC. (coindidentally, Trystane was born that year :) )

Now, Arianne reads Doran's letter when she's 14 years old (thus in 290AC), when she went to kiss Doran goodnight in his chambers. Doran was not there, because he was fighting with Mellario, meaning that Mellario was thus still in Dorne in 290AC. Comparing that knowledge to Quentyn's quote about "spending half their marriage apart", Mellario most likely left not too long thereafter.

[Julia Martell]

Arianne was born in 276AC, and Doran and Mellario were betrothed still in 272AC/273AC. So they married somewhere in between 272AC and 276AC, though probably, as seems to be a trend in asoiaf, not all too long before Mellario became pregnant with Arianne (so in 274/275AC, I'd say). That means that by 300AC, they had been married for 25 or 26 years. Spending half of your marriage apart would indicate that Mellario had left roughly 13 years ago, around 287AC. (coindidentally, Trystane was born that year :) )

Now, Arianne reads Doran's letter when she's 14 years old (thus in 290AC), when she went to kiss Doran goodnight in his chambers. Doran was not there, because he was fighting with Mellario, meaning that Mellario was thus still in Dorne in 290AC. Comparing that knowledge to Quentyn's quote about "spending half their marriage apart", Mellario most likely left not too long thereafter.

Maybe that was the night she packed up and went back to Norvos.

No wonder poor fourteen-year-old Arianne went and fucked Daemon Sand soon after.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Okay so, in The Soiled Knight (the number of times I mistype that as "The Spoiled Knight" would have Freud all up in a tizzy) Arianne is explaining to Arys how she came upon the letter from Doran to Quentyn. She says

"Not Trys. Quentyn." Her eyes were bold and black as sin, unflinching. I haveknown the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my father's solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He'd left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it...

If this happened when Arianne was 14, and she's what, 23 or 24 right now, that would put Mellario as already gone back to Norvos when Doran apparently goes to visit her. Does that seem weird to anyone else? Am I just doing so basic arithmetic completely wrong?

ETA Nevermind, as predicted Rhaenys cleared it up :)

[Dornish Vinegar]

Arianne was born in 276AC, and Doran and Mellario were betrothed still in 272AC/273AC. So they married somewhere in between 272AC and 276AC, though probably, as seems to be a trend in asoiaf, not all too long before Mellario became pregnant with Arianne (so in 274/275AC, I'd say). That means that by 300AC, they had been married for 25 or 26 years. Spending half of your marriage apart would indicate that Mellario had left roughly 13 years ago, around 287AC. (coindidentally, Trystane was born that year :) )

Now, Arianne reads Doran's letter when she's 14 years old (thus in 290AC), when she went to kiss Doran goodnight in his chambers. Doran was not there, because he was fighting with Mellario, meaning that Mellario was thus still in Dorne in 290AC. Comparing that knowledge to Quentyn's quote about "spending half their marriage apart", Mellario most likely left not too long thereafter.

Thank you, okay, that's what I was wondering about!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Okay so, in The Soiled Knight (the number of times I mistype that as "The Spoiled Knight" would have Freud all up in a tizzy) Arianne is explaining to Arys how she came upon the letter from Doran to Quentyn. She says

If this happened when Arianne was 14, and she's what, 23 or 24 right now, that would put Mellario as already gone back to Norvos when Doran apparently goes to visit her. Does that seem weird to anyone else? Am I just doing so basic arithmetic completely wrong?

ETA Nevermind, as predicted Rhaenys cleared it up :)

I understand that "sent for him" as she was in a different room and sent for him because of that.

[Dornish Vinegar]

I understand that "sent for him" as she was in a different room and sent for him because of that.

That's what I thought on my first reading too, but I figured I'd look into it a lil bit. Y'all know I'm grasping for straws trying to make Doran a player of the highest caliber :crying:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's what I thought on my first reading too, but I figured I'd look into it a lil bit. Y'all know I'm grasping for straws trying to make Doran a player of the highest caliber :crying:

Still, it's telling. They slept apart. IICR, Jaime also mentioned that Rhaella and Aerys slept in different bedrooms like it's odd. It's not odd for noble couples, specially Kings and Queens, to have separate dormitories. But in Westeros, looks like it's the norm and A and R slept apart because they hated each other. Cersei still sleeps in the bed where Robert died. Considering they hated each other, they still were sharing one room. Yet, it's said that Rhaenys hid under "her father's bed", not her parents' bed. I wonder if Rhaegar and Elia simply slept apart because she was sick and need space. The fact Rhaegar and Elia didn't share a room could be also a bit telling of what their relationship was.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Okay so, in The Soiled Knight (the number of times I mistype that as "The Spoiled Knight" would have Freud all up in a tizzy) Arianne is explaining to Arys how she came upon the letter from Doran to Quentyn. She says

If this happened when Arianne was 14, and she's what, 23 or 24 right now, that would put Mellario as already gone back to Norvos when Doran apparently goes to visit her. Does that seem weird to anyone else? Am I just doing so basic arithmetic completely wrong?

ETA Nevermind, as predicted Rhaenys cleared it up :)

I understand that "sent for him" as she was in a different room and sent for him because of that.

When they say that Doran and Mellario spend half their marriage apart, they don't mean exactly half their marriage ;) roughly half their marriage. and 10 years in a 25 year marriage could be seen as roughly half, I'd say.

In any case, Doran had been in his rooms reading the letter, and been called away to Mellario, so yeah, she was in Sunspear at that moment :p I assume she left quickly after that night.. Perhaps this fight was the *searches for translation of the proverb* the straw that broke the camels back, as Julia Martell suggested.

[Julia Martell]

Ned and Cat had different rooms, I think, even if they spent most of their times in Cat's room.

Tyrion and Sansa had one bed between them though, for maximum awkwardness.

[Chebyshov]

Jeeze, no one liked my beautiful drawing? :crying:

Still, it's telling. They slept apart. IICR, Jaime also mentioned that Rhaella and Aerys slept in different bedrooms like it's odd. It's not odd for noble couples, specially Kings and Queens, to have separate dormitories. But in Westeros, looks like it's the norm and A and R slept apart because they hated each other. Cersei still sleeps in the bed where Robert died. Considering they hated each other, they still were sharing one room. Yet, it's said that Rhaenys hid under "her father's bed", not her parents' bed. I wonder if Rhaegar and Elia simply slept apart because she was sick and need space. The fact Rhaegar and Elia didn't share a room could be also a bit telling of what their relationship was.

R+E had a complicated relationship too though, didn't they? Maybe this is why Oberyn never wanted to marry, looking at his siblings and how those panned out.

[Julia Martell]

I love your drawing!!! Exactly what I asked for!

And with 40% more doodling during a boring meeting!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ned and Cat had different rooms, I think, even if they spent most of their times in Cat's room.

Tyrion and Sansa had one bed between them though, for maximum awkwardness.

That might have been because the Red Keep and buildings attached to it were kind of full, whereas at Winterfell (and any other castle) there would have been room enough for such an arrangement.

Cersei and Robert had separated rooms as well (though I doubt anyone will wonder why). And little Rhaenys went to hide under Rhaegar's bed, suggesting that Elia had her own rooms as well..

So it seems to be a common thing, to me. Wasn't it that way in real life history as well?

[Dornish Vinegar]

Still, it's telling. They slept apart. IICR, Jaime also mentioned that Rhaella and Aerys slept in different bedrooms like it's odd. It's not odd for noble couples, specially Kings and Queens, to have separate dormitories. But in Westeros, looks like it's the norm and A and R slept apart because they hated each other. Cersei still sleeps in the bed where Robert died. Considering they hated each other, they still were sharing one room. Yet, it's said that Rhaenys hid under "her father's bed", not her parents' bed. I wonder if Rhaegar and Elia simply slept apart because she was sick and need space. The fact Rhaegar and Elia didn't share a room could be also a bit telling of what their relationship was.

indeed, definitely sheds some light on Doran and Mellario's relationship. I do wonder about her often. Would love to meet her at some points in the books (doubt it'll happen, though).