[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[LmL]

I'm not so sure.

Obsidian or Dragonglass is well known (at least to learned people e.g. Maesters) in Westeros an in Essos and it is known to come from Dragonstone and the like.

Whatever Assai is made from seems to be intentionally described as something different. I mean Maesters that have studied the world are not going to make up some mystery about the stuff if it's just normal volcanic glass which is quite common and they are well aware of existing.

I think oily black stone is definitely something different and I don't think anyone really understands what it is.

Obsidian is a incredibly shitty building material. Too brittle. 

I do actually think I have a very good idea about what the greasy black stone is, although that's not to say I'm correct of course. It's a bit long of an explanation but it can be found at the link in my signature, in both podcast and essay form. It has to do with the moon explosion which I believe was the cause of the Long Night, as well as the idea of black blood and fire transformation, and also with HP Lovecraft's ideas about magically toxic meteorites which seem to be at play here. 

[Lordsteve666]

Obsidian is a incredibly shitty building material. Too brittle. 

I do actually think I have a very good idea about what the greasy black stone is, although that's not to say I'm correct of course. It's a bit long of an explanation but it can be found at the link in my signature, in both podcast and essay form. It has to do with the moon explosion which I believe was the cause of the Long Night, as well as the idea of black blood and fire transformation, and also with HP Lovecraft's ideas about magically toxic meteorites which seem to be at play here. 

Oooo, loving the Lovecraft stuff. Still got a few of your essays to read but I feel you're on the right track.

You're right that Obsidian would be a really crap building material. It's alright for daggers or arrowheads but even they would have limited uses. 

The ideas with the moon shattering are brilliant. But the one area nobody seems to know is why the moon shattered. I'm swayed towards it either just being something that was beyond the control of the residents of Planetos (an astronomical event they could not have foreseen nor caused) or it was the work of being with a lot more power than anyone currently does possess in the known world. With all the Lovecraft references in the work it's not hard to imagine the moon getting shattered in some cataclysmic galactic fight between two sides in a conflict beyond any pitiful human understanding. Beings such as Elder Gods or Old Ones would do as they pleased, maybe Planetos just got in the way and the fallout from their actions rained down to play havoc on the planet.

[hiemal]

On the topic of stones of import:

It seems to me that there are four types of stone with inherent mystic powers. Two are of the earth, or planetos, and two are extra-planetary.

The two earthly stones are obsidian and fossilized weirwood and the two others are the oily, black stones and the radiant ore from which Dawn was forged. Fire, ice, darkness and light?

[LmL]

On the topic of stones of import:

It seems to me that there are four types of stone with inherent mystic powers. Two are of the earth, or planetos, and two are extra-planetary.

The two earthly stones are obsidian and fossilized weirwood and the two others are the oily, black stones and the radiant ore from which Dawn was forged. Fire, ice, darkness and light?

That's a good observation. We have weapons made of obsidian, from greasy stone (if I am right that AA / the BSE made Lightbringer from greasy black stone), and from the pale stone of the Dawn meteorite. 

I wonder if we can make a weapon out of weirwood pale stone? There is an awful lot about wooden swords in the books... might Dawn have even been made from a weirwood pale stone? The heart of a fallen tree with star shaped leaves? 

[LmL]

Oooo, loving the Lovecraft stuff. Still got a few of your essays to read but I feel you're on the right track.

You're right that Obsidian would be a really crap building material. It's alright for daggers or arrowheads but even they would have limited uses. 

The ideas with the moon shattering are brilliant. But the one area nobody seems to know is why the moon shattered. I'm swayed towards it either just being something that was beyond the control of the residents of Planetos (an astronomical event they could not have foreseen nor caused) or it was the work of being with a lot more power than anyone currently does possess in the known world. With all the Lovecraft references in the work it's not hard to imagine the moon getting shattered in some cataclysmic galactic fight between two sides in a conflict beyond any pitiful human understanding. Beings such as Elder Gods or Old Ones would do as they pleased, maybe Planetos just got in the way and the fallout from their actions rained down to play havoc on the planet.

In my most recent podcast I discussed all the various myths which involve things descending from heaven to earth, and it seems in every case a human is responsible. I don't know how it was done (although I have some guesses), but it does seem like we are being told that human magicians caused the comet moon collision in some way. 

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

On the topic of stones of import:

It seems to me that there are four types of stone with inherent mystic powers. Two are of the earth, or planetos, and two are extra-planetary.

The two earthly stones are obsidian and fossilized weirwood and the two others are the oily, black stones and the radiant ore from which Dawn was forged. Fire, ice, darkness and light?

I tend to agree with you. I don't think that these stones are all the same but I wouldn't cut Obsidian out of the game entirely, for GRRM said that the ASOIAF Obsidian differs from the real world one quite a lot. 

Of Course it doesn't have to be composed of Obsidian entirely but maybe partially?

[hiemal]

 

I wonder if we can make a weapon out of weirwood pale stone? There is an awful lot about wooden swords in the books... might Dawn have even been made from a weirwood pale stone? The heart of a fallen tree with star shaped leaves? 

My current thinking is that Lightbringer is an alloy of dragonglass and OBS, while Dawn is comprised of Radiant ore and fossilized weirwood.

The combination of darkness and fire is mirrored in Belarion's breath. Ice and light, if I am correct, would be its counterbalance.

[LmL]

My current thinking is that Lightbringer is an alloy of dragonglass and OBS, while Dawn is comprised of Radiant ore and fossilized weirwood.

The combination of darkness and fire is mirrored in Belarion's breath. Ice and light, if I am correct, would be its counterbalance.

I like your thinking very much ser. Might I ask how you came about to this opinion?

[LmL]

I mean I have all types of reasons to believe pale stone of a weirwood is involved myself but I am curious what you have found. Did you know milkglass is made by adding bone ash to glass? Weirwoods are pale as bone, just saying. Other's bones are like milkglass.  I could go round and round with this symbolism. It's kind of insane.

 

[hiemal]

My reasoning is difficult to explain because it relies so much on other hypotheses, on parallel mythic imagery, and on intuition that it defies easy communication. No podcasts for me!

In some kind of nutshell:

The elemental imagery is prominent enough to be featured in the series title, while the light and dark drumbeat is picked up by the followers of R'hlorr and sustained by many others. The swords combining opposing elements as well as the influence of "outside" is mostly parallel mythology- I'm thinking grail/excalibur and a dark counterpart.

The weirwood/bone similarity provides an even more economical and less alchemical solution (hehe) than an alloy- it could be used to make the hilt instead of being worked into the blade itself, although as you point out, its pulverized presence might account for Dawn's milky appearance.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Weirwood in the magic swords might account for their ability to absorb souls. It seems that weirwoods absorb the souls of greenseers, maybe that property transfers to things composed of weirwood?

Of course in that case LB would have had weirwood in it too. My take is that LB was originally part of original Dawn.  After the splitting the half that remains known as Dawn stayed the same while the half that became LB was "messed with" by AA. So LB contains everything Dawn contains, plus...IDK. Bloodstone, probably. (Ok, fine, bloodstone is real...) :-P And of course the soul of Nissa Nissa.

[hiemal]

Perhaps the OBS can also take souls in some fashion, although given their unwholesome reputation I doubt anything as elegant as the mobile weirwood I envision Dawn acting as. LB seems more akin to me to Moorcock's Stormbringer, that drinks souls and misuses their energies for the wielder's benefit.

(If you haven't considered the similarity between GRRM's Valyrians and Moorcock's Melnibonaens that comparison might not make a lot sense.)

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just looked up "Stormbringer." Yeah that's definitely probably a template for LB, as it's wielded by Elric who fights Yyrkoon. Which is totally different from Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero.

FFS, George...

[hiemal]

Just looked up "Stormbringer." Yeah that's definitely probably a template for LB, as it's wielded by Elric who fights Yyrkoon. Which is totally different from Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero.

FFS, George...

Lol, right...

I think of it as the easter eggs of a new mythology sprinkled among the old. Moorcock was(and still is) the anti-tolkien, the vanguard of new-wave fantasy- raw, violent, and stark; populated with anti-heroes and soiled, decadent kingdoms of dire magic and ancient secrets. I'd say he's right up there with Lovecraft in terms of world-building influence, and as you pointed out, some of the names have been taken in tribute and acknowledgment.

[LmL]

Weirwood in the magic swords might account for their ability to absorb souls. It seems that weirwoods absorb the souls of greenseers, maybe that property transfers to things composed of weirwood?

Of course in that case LB would have had weirwood in it too. My take is that LB was originally part of original Dawn.  After the splitting the half that remains known as Dawn stayed the same while the half that became LB was "messed with" by AA. So LB contains everything Dawn contains, plus...IDK. Bloodstone, probably. (Ok, fine, bloodstone is real...) :-P And of course the soul of Nissa Nissa.

I wanted you to know you got me to laugh quite loudly just now..

Intersting idea - there is a lot of sword breaking and sword splitting going on, and I don't have a good bead on what it means part from the idea that the comet plot before impact. Your idea parallels that - a white sword splits, one half is corrupted in fire and blood. 

That would make original Dawn like 8 feet tall, wouldn't it? Taller than a man on horseback, practically!

"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end.”

AGOT, DAENERYS (Jorah)

That's also a good catch about weirwood being a potent soul storage vessel, just as Lightbringer (and the ghost grass) are. 

[LmL]

Just looked up "Stormbringer." Yeah that's definitely probably a template for LB, as it's wielded by Elric who fights Yyrkoon. Which is totally different from Eldric Shadowchaser and Hyrkoon the Hero.

FFS, George...

The idea of Eldric Shadowchaser opposing Hyrkoon (Azor Ahai) is something I'm warming to - the idea is that "Eldric Shadowchaser" is the son of AA who went against his father's evil, becoming the LH. In general, I am seeing Azor Ahai with a black sword and some Westerosi champion - proto-Stark or Dayne or both - with the white sword now called Dawn. That kind of squares with the Moorcock ideas, I think. 

[hiemal]

The idea of Eldric Shadowchaser opposing Hyrkoon (Azor Ahai) is something I'm warming to - the idea is that "Eldric Shadowchaser" is the son of AA who went against his father's evil, becoming the LH. In general, I am seeing Azor Ahai with a black sword and some Westerosi champion - proto-Stark or Dayne or both - with the white sword now called Dawn. That kind of squares with the Moorcock ideas, I think. 

Very much so. Particularly when you compare Moorcock's fascination with his series spanning Hero With A Thousand Faces" the Eternal Champion with the PtWP. Throw in the whole Galladon/Just Maid, Evenstar and Morne/Dorne thing and I am quite convinced.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I actually tend to think that Bran the Builder was the Last Hero. That the help the CotF gave was not a sword but the idea of the wall, to introduce a two-state solution, as it were, to end the fighting. 

So, I haven't read any Moorcock, but based on the Wikipedia summary it doesn't sound like there was a lot of appreciable difference between Edric and Yyrkoon. Two dudes with demon swords. Edric was the Champion and ostensible hero, but not exactly a good person. So, just based on that, I'm more inclined to think Eldric and Hyrkoon are both names for AA. But like I said I haven't read it so that's just a thought. 

I see the family feud as being a war between brothers--AA and Symeon Star Eyes (wielding the other half of Dawn, which was known as Ice at the time and is modern Dawn--I actually think AE and SSE were twins/lovers, that wasn't kosher and that's why SSE went to Westeros when Garth abdicated and AE became the heir, sword was split expressly for the pair of them but BSE got AE's when he killed her, that half became LB), after AA/BSE has killed AE and Garth.

AA's son would definitely fit into that. Bran the Builder would be AA's...let's see, I think Garth is AA's older brother, so Bran is Garth's grandson and AA's...great nephew. Not quite a son but definitely in the family. 

I'm totally open as to whether AA had a son. I think it fits easily but isn't necessary. 

 

You know, I always forget about ghost grass. I totally forgot that line about it being haunted. Now I kind of wonder if the area full of ghost grass is perhaps a destroyed weirwood forest? If we're seeing pulverized petrified weirwood as similar to bone dust--bone dust is also used as fertilizer. If a weirwood forest were burned, perhaps ghost grass grew from the ashes?

 

Re: Dawn being 8 feet tall: Yeah, pretty much. I went back and re read my blog post on the pearl/milk glass and remembered that I originally thought that Dawn was made from the palanquin after the bulk of the metorite magic had faded from the material. Perhaps to concentrate the magic in a smaller vessel or sth. Or just out of respect for God on Earth, retiring his vehicle but keeping a bit of it to pass down. (Random thought--GoE's bone dust put into original Dawn?) 

Anyway, I'm not bothered by the implied huge size of original Dawn. 2 possibilities: 1) it was always meant to be more ceremonial and was never used to fight with, like Ned's Ice, or 2) in addition to longer lives and more power the Dawnians had larger statures than modern humans. If in fact Blackfyre and Dark Sister were also a result of splitting a larger sword, that sword must have been a monster as well. Something about dragon riders and massive swords, lol. 

[hiemal]

Ha! Love it so much! Symeon Star-Eyes has too long been a square peg for me. Fascinating and worthy of further thought. I have been focused on my personal pony, that Florian is the Last Hero, possible son of AA but it's all tenuous.

[LmL]

I actually tend to think that Bran the Builder was the Last Hero. That the help the CotF gave was not a sword but the idea of the wall, to introduce a two-state solution, as it were, to end the fighting. 

So, I haven't read any Moorcock, but based on the Wikipedia summary it doesn't sound like there was a lot of appreciable difference between Edric and Yyrkoon. Two dudes with demon swords. Edric was the Champion and ostensible hero, but not exactly a good person. So, just based on that, I'm more inclined to think Eldric and Hyrkoon are both names for AA. But like I said I haven't read it so that's just a thought. 

I see the family feud as being a war between brothers--AA and Symeon Star Eyes (wielding the other half of Dawn, which was known as Ice at the time and is modern Dawn--I actually think AE and SSE were twins/lovers, that wasn't kosher and that's why SSE went to Westeros when Garth abdicated and AE became the heir, sword was split expressly for the pair of them but BSE got AE's when he killed her, that half became LB), after AA/BSE has killed AE and Garth.

AA's son would definitely fit into that. Bran the Builder would be AA's...let's see, I think Garth is AA's older brother, so Bran is Garth's grandson and AA's...great nephew. Not quite a son but definitely in the family. 

I'm totally open as to whether AA had a son. I think it fits easily but isn't necessary. 

 

You know, I always forget about ghost grass. I totally forgot that line about it being haunted. Now I kind of wonder if the area full of ghost grass is perhaps a destroyed weirwood forest? If we're seeing pulverized petrified weirwood as similar to bone dust--bone dust is also used as fertilizer. If a weirwood forest were burned, perhaps ghost grass grew from the ashes?

 

Re: Dawn being 8 feet tall: Yeah, pretty much. I went back and re read my blog post on the pearl/milk glass and remembered that I originally thought that Dawn was made from the palanquin after the bulk of the metorite magic had faded from the material. Perhaps to concentrate the magic in a smaller vessel or sth. Or just out of respect for God on Earth, retiring his vehicle but keeping a bit of it to pass down. (Random thought--GoE's bone dust put into original Dawn?) 

Anyway, I'm not bothered by the implied huge size of original Dawn. 2 possibilities: 1) it was always meant to be more ceremonial and was never used to fight with, like Ned's Ice, or 2) in addition to longer lives and more power the Dawnians had larger statures than modern humans. If in fact Blackfyre and Dark Sister were also a result of splitting a larger sword, that sword must have been a monster as well. Something about dragon riders and massive swords, lol. 

Hey Beth, I wanted to come back and follow up on your ideas here. 

As for big swords, when Robert dons his "horned god" hat, he becomes a giant. I think the Green Men (horned lords) were "giants" in the sense that they were tall - probably like the Lengi and Sarnori and Lorathi - 7-8 feet or so. So giant swords might not be an issue at all.

As for father-son and brother-brother conflicts, we have precedents for both, and at the Wall. Brandon the Breaker might have been the NK's brother, it's said (iirc), while the Bael the Bard and 79 sentinels stories give us father-son issues. Jon and Robb are set up for implied rivalry a few times, with Robb the King of Winter archetype and Jon the combined Lord Snow / AA archetype. Jon dreams of usurping Robb, of course, and their dynamic is compared to Stannis being in Robert's shadow. The three Baratheons give us brotherly rivalries also. 

I could definitely see either one applying. And the LH could be any damn person. NK? AA? BtB? Really hard to say. I'm keeping my mind open with that. 

As for the Ghost Grass I think it's probably just a reader clue to connect Dawn to the GEotD. The GG is like a field of Dawn swords - hard to think of a practical link there. "Dawn is just a common blade of grass at Asshai!" Probably not. But the ghost grass glowing with ghost light speaks of loss, almost like they are glowing tombstones to the lost people and magic of the GEotD. Separately, he notion of conparing Dawn to a plant might reinforce the idea that some amount of weirwood went into the sword. 

I have been collecting quotes about anything that shares the same symbolism with Dawn: the actual sunrise, the Wall, the Others, the Ghost Grass, weirwoods, the prophecy of the SWMTW, as well as the Eyrie trifecta of Alyssa's Tears, the Giant's Lance, and the Eyrie proper. I even have all these things organized into a big table, with a row for each set of shared symbols. I'm trying to figure out what George is saying to us with all of it - there are clues about Dawn coming from the GEotD, but also clues about Dawn coming from the North and being associated with icy things and Stark things. Not sure what to make of it yet. I may end up writing an either or theory, and presenting both lines of evidence.