[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[LmL]

I have a new theory on the Construct at Oldtown and the "mazemakers".

I have come to find earily striking simmilarity's to the city of Oldtown, and the ancient city of ALexandria, and that set me thinking.

The simmilarity's:

-Ancient Alexandria had it's great library, the greatest center of learning and scholarship of its day., a hughe repository of knowledge. This is very similar to the citadel in Oldtown in scope and function.

-Ancient had a hughe lighthouse, sitting no less on a sepperate island in front of it's harbor, quite extremely similar to the Pharos in Alexandrai, and how simmilar to have both 2 such great constructs siting not far from eachother.

-Both city's are very important city's for trade and globalized culture so to speak. Both are city's sitting on the exit of an important river. Both city's have many temple's to different gods.

-Both city's have sphinxes, hughe stone statue's simmilar in appearance. And really, what are those sphinxes doing there anyway? Neat detail imho though.

So that made me think that maye there were hints to the connection. And so i wondered what they could be.

One such possible hint was the idea that Aleexander the great was burried there. I wondered, could it be that there was somone of note of the past that was burried in oldtonw, and if so where was his grave?

And thats when i thought about the base construct of the hightower. Because it's perfect for the theme. It looks very much like a burial site with Egyptian influences. it was made by the "mazemakers", well by the virtue that Egyptian burrial tombs often had mazes inside they were also build by mazemakers i could say. The construct is perfectly smoothed, and this is also something that Egyptias would do with Pyramids for ex., that is they would give it a nice coat so the seems wouldn't be seen, although time would wear that down in our world.

But so ik, i get a strong suspicioun from these ideas that what the mazemakers made were actually burial tombs.

I like this thinking very much, Waters gate. Ive definitely noticed the similarity to Alexandria, although its one of the Sarnori cities that has the most fabled library that burned, and is mourned by scholars or whatever. That just means he used the idea multiple times. The Sarnori culture has heavy Egyptian influence.

But getting back the Hightower, its an interesting idea that someone is buried there. Remember that the first Hightowers lived in that thing, too. If I had to bet on someone buried there, Id say the Bloodstone Emperor, after he came to Battle Isle and fought a battle. Just a guess though.

I have always connected the maze makers with the Old Ones in the underground cities beneath Leng. The Lengi have golden eyes and can see in the dark. and a very tall. They eyes sound like a cot thing, but the height is definitely not. Ive actually been looking for a tall elf analog to the children, and I think the Old Ones beneath Leng could fit. If they are taller versions of cotf, perhaps more malevolent but perhaps not, then an interbreeding with the Lengi natives would explain their golden eyes and extreme height. The maze makers were very tall, obviously, though not so tall as giants, so that says about 7-8 feet to me. Read the description of the underground cities on Leng and the Mazemakers mazes and see if you agree. Whoever the Mazemakers were, they were very, very old indeed.

[Waters Gate]

Now if you pull the line further, then you might think: So, is Asshai then basicly a city of burial tombs? And the thing is, it quite fits the theme over there aswell.

Like the city litteraly seems on the path to the underworld. With a river like the Stygia no less, everything seems dead around, and if you pass trough a hole "in between 2 mountains" (or more likely a very deep gorge) or hey into the shadows then you litterally tumble on city of the dead. So it's kinda a connection to the underworld.

And then you have this big people in history who thought maybe well let us build some huge tomb there, for reasons. Maybe the spirits of those great people are still aroudn there and the shadowbinders use them to gather wisdom and acces to cache's of treasure's that tombs often have, be it that there often is a curse attached maybe.

Would the spirits like ghost grass?

But getting back the Hightower, its an interesting idea that someone is buried there. Remember that the first Hightowers lived in that thing, too. If I had to bet on someone buried there, I’d say the Bloodstone Emperor, after he came to Battle Isle and fought a battle. Just a guess though.

Not a bad idea at all, i was looking for a sort of conquering monarch type anyhow, thx for the tip, i don't know too much about the guy, if you have more interresting theory's regarding him that you might connect to this feel free to add.

[LmL]

Now if you pull the line further, then you might think: So, is Asshai then basicly a city of burial tombs? And the thing is, it quite fits the theme over there aswell.

Like the city litteraly seems on the path to the underworld. With a river like the Stygia no less, everything seems dead around, and if you pass trough a hole "in between 2 mountains" (or more likely a very deep gorge) or hey into the shadows then you litterally tumble on city of the dead. So it's kinda a connection to the underworld.

And then you have this big people in history who thought maybe well let us build some huge tomb there, for reasons. Maybe the spirits of those great people are still aroudn there and the shadowbinders use them to gather wisdom and acces to cache's of treasure's that tombs often have, be it that there often is a curse attached maybe.

Would the spirits like ghost grass?

Not a bad idea at all, i was looking for a sort of conquering monarch type anyhow, thx for the tip, i don't know too much about the guy, if you have more interresting theory's regarding him that you might connect to this feel free to add.

Yes, working hard on part two of the astronomy series. Going to get into the a bloodstone emperor pretty heavy. I'm working on trying to figure out who all the players were in the battle at battle isle.. Seems like the Grey King and Garth were there, and Garth may be the Barrow King.. We know a stark needs to be there.. Bloodstone Emperor, I'm pretty sure, and maybe a proto Dayne... Just trying to sort it out.

[DragonSnow]

The Deep Ones broke the Arm of Dorne and caused The Doom of Valyria

Background

Black Stones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_stone

So we know there are mysterious oily black stones scattered across The Known World. Seastone Chair on the Iron Islands, 40 ft statue of a Toad on Isle of Toads, Buildings in Asshai. All located near the Sea.

These black stones are similar but different from the black stone on the foundation of Hightower at Oldtown and the Five Forts in Yi Ti and the remaining Valyrian dragonfire structures. These stone are the same in every way except they are not described as oily but rather as fused black stone.

Bloodstone Emperor: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bloodstone_Emperor

The last emperor of the old Yi Ti emperor. This guy killed his sister. Married a "tiger women" and was so bad his actions are blamed for the coming of the Long Night. But importantly upon his ascension to the Yi Ti thrown he cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky. He founded the Church of Starry Wisdom which is still practiced today in some port cities

Deep Ones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Deep_Ones

The black stones are associated with what's known as the Deep Ones (a fabled mythical race of half men half sea creature). I am assuming that The Drowned God of the Iron Islands, the Old Ones of Ling, the Rhoynish Gods known as Mother Rhoyne and Old Men of the River, and the Gods of The Thousand Islands are all the references to the same entity or entities under the sea.

Patchface: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patchface

Patchface supposedly met the deep ones and now sings cryptic tales of something in the sea that will eventually rise out of the water. He is currently a jester at Dragonstone

Mazemakers of Lorath: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mazemakers

The legends of the Lorathi state the mazemakers were destroyed by creatures of the sea, such as merlings, selkies, or walrus-men. Lorath is a city next to the sea.

So I am of the belief that there is a race of underwater dwellers have are as old or older than The Children and Giants. I also believe that the Deep Ones are responsible for submerging the land bridge between Westeros and Essos. The Children had a hand in it but the Deep Ones did the heavy lifting.

Additionally, the Deep Ones are responsible for the Doom of Valyria. Valyria was a coastal city and considering that nearly all the dragonlords and dragons were in Valyria during the doom the timing can’t be a coincidence. The Doom occurred partly as revenge for the Valyrians wiping out the 250,000 strong army of Rhoynar. The surviving Rhoynars who didn’t leave on the 10,000 ships abandoned their old religion worshipping the gods of the river after defeat for the Faith of the Seven. Also, assuming the Deep Ones have long planned on returning to the surface to rule once again it would make sense to destroy the greatest threat to their rule. (The Valyrians have so many dragons at the time they could make huge bodies of water boil)

The Deep Ones are the lost race that ruled the world before the rise of mankind. The Deep Ones have teamed up with The Children who are tired of living on the fringes and want to reclaim their old turf in Westeros. The Deep Ones will probably have some of mankind on their side. The Ironborn for example I assume will side with The Deep Ones. Bloodraven maybe also aware of the Deep Ones and is helping them. Members of the Church of Starry Wisdom are all for the take over. Some forces in Assahai probably will have a hand in the Deep Ones reemergence.

So how will a majority of mankind fight such a powerful foe?

We will not see the White Walkers and the Dragons battle it out. Instead they will both have to join forces to defeat the Deep Ones once and for all. I believe that the events for the Long Night have been misinterpreted over the centuries and the White Walkers got cast as the bad guys but in reality they fight alongside mankind. The current White Walkers are gearing up for the fight. They know what is coming.

Perhaps the known world like Earth was once completed covered in water and only after land masses began to rise out of the water did The Great Ones lose their grip on control of the world.

What do you think?

[LmL]

^^^ this should probably be its own post. Generally there's a limit to how many new idea you want to introduce on page 15 of an existing thread. You've got some interesting ideas there, but you should probably make it its own thread, complete with catchy title, and see what everyone thinks. :)

[Nozlym]

... Valyria was a coastal city ...

i dont believe so.

[barristan-b]

The Deep Ones broke the Arm of Dorne and caused The Doom of Valyria

Background

Black Stones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_stone

So we know there are mysterious oily black stones scattered across The Known World. Seastone Chair on the Iron Islands, 40 ft statue of a Toad on Isle of Toads, Buildings in Asshai. All located near the Sea.

These black stones are similar but different from the black stone on the foundation of Hightower at Oldtown and the Five Forts in Yi Ti and the remaining Valyrian dragonfire structures. These stone are the same in every way except they are not described as oily but rather as fused black stone.

Bloodstone Emperor: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bloodstone_Emperor

The last emperor of the old Yi Ti emperor. This guy killed his sister. Married a "tiger women" and was so bad his actions are blamed for the coming of the Long Night. But importantly upon his ascension to the Yi Ti thrown he cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky. He founded the Church of Starry Wisdom which is still practiced today in some port cities

Deep Ones: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Deep_Ones

The black stones are associated with what's known as the Deep Ones (a fabled mythical race of half men half sea creature). I am assuming that The Drowned God of the Iron Islands, the Old Ones of Ling, the Rhoynish Gods known as Mother Rhoyne and Old Men of the River, and the Gods of The Thousand Islands are all the references to the same entity or entities under the sea.

Patchface: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patchface

Patchface supposedly met the deep ones and now sings cryptic tales of something in the sea that will eventually rise out of the water. He is currently a jester at Dragonstone

Mazemakers of Lorath: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mazemakers

The legends of the Lorathi state the mazemakers were destroyed by creatures of the sea, such as merlings, selkies, or walrus-men. Lorath is a city next to the sea.

So I am of the belief that there is a race of underwater dwellers have are as old or older than The Children and Giants. I also believe that the Deep Ones are responsible for submerging the land bridge between Westeros and Essos. The Children had a hand in it but the Deep Ones did the heavy lifting.

Additionally, the Deep Ones are responsible for the Doom of Valyria. Valyria was a coastal city and considering that nearly all the dragonlords and dragons were in Valyria during the doom the timing can’t be a coincidence. The Doom occurred partly as revenge for the Valyrians wiping out the 250,000 strong army of Rhoynar. The surviving Rhoynars who didn’t leave on the 10,000 ships abandoned their old religion worshipping the gods of the river after defeat for the Faith of the Seven. Also, assuming the Deep Ones have long planned on returning to the surface to rule once again it would make sense to destroy the greatest threat to their rule. (The Valyrians have so many dragons at the time they could make huge bodies of water boil)

The Deep Ones are the lost race that ruled the world before the rise of mankind. The Deep Ones have teamed up with The Children who are tired of living on the fringes and want to reclaim their old turf in Westeros. The Deep Ones will probably have some of mankind on their side. The Ironborn for example I assume will side with The Deep Ones. Bloodraven maybe also aware of the Deep Ones and is helping them. Members of the Church of Starry Wisdom are all for the take over. Some forces in Assahai probably will have a hand in the Deep Ones reemergence.

So how will a majority of mankind fight such a powerful foe?

We will not see the White Walkers and the Dragons battle it out. Instead they will both have to join forces to defeat the Deep Ones once and for all. I believe that the events for the Long Night have been misinterpreted over the centuries and the White Walkers got cast as the bad guys but in reality they fight alongside mankind. The current White Walkers are gearing up for the fight. They know what is coming.

Perhaps the known world like Earth was once completed covered in water and only after land masses began to rise out of the water did The Great Ones lose their grip on control of the world.

What do you think?

Big correction: The Bloodstone Emperor is from the Empire of the Dawn which preceded the Yi Ti Empire and stretched over a lot more land. It's from the same culture but I wouldn't mistake the culture for the empire itself.

Cool theory though.

[barristan-b]

I have a new theory on the Construct at Oldtown and the "mazemakers".

I have come to find earily striking simmilarity's to the city of Oldtown, and the ancient city of ALexandria, and that set me thinking.

The simmilarity's:

-Ancient Alexandria had it's great library, the greatest center of learning and scholarship of its day., a hughe repository of knowledge. This is very similar to the citadel in Oldtown in scope and function.

-Ancient Alexandria had a hughe lighthouse, sitting no less on a sepperate island in front of it's harbor, the Pharos was quite extremely similar to the Hightower, and how perculiar to have 2 such great constructs siting not far from eachother.

-Both city's are very important city's for trade and globalized culture so to speak. Both are city's sitting on the exit of an important river. Both city's have many temple's to different gods.

-Both city's have sphinxes, hughe stone statue's simmilar in appearance. And really, what are those sphinxes doing there anyway? Neat detail imho though.

So that made me think that maye there were hints to the connection. And so i wondered what they could be.

One such possible hint was the idea that Alexander the great was burried there. I wondered, could it be that there was somone of note of the past that was burried in oldtown, and if so where was his grave?

And thats when i thought about the base construct of the hightower. Because it's perfect for the theme. It looks very much like a burial site with Egyptian influences. it was made by the "mazemakers", well by the virtue that Egyptian burrial tombs often had mazes inside they were also build by mazemakers i could say. The construct is perfectly smoothed, and this is also something that Egyptians would do with Pyramids for ex., that is they would give it a nice coat so the seems wouldn't be seen, although time would wear that down in our world.

But so ok, i get a strong suspicioun from these ideas that what the mazemakers made were actually burial tombs.

Most excellent. Another thing is that the base of Hightower is seemingly from a lost time in history and seems to be of superior construction. Much like some ancient Egyptian monuments have very finely crafted stone work at the base of their structures but the later cultures didn't do it as well (I.E. Sphinx, New Sphinx Temples, Saqqara, etc.)

[TheSovereignGrave]

Big correction: The Bloodstone Emperor is from the Empire of the Dawn which preceded the Yi Ti Empire and stretched over a lot more land. It's from the same culture but I wouldn't mistake the culture for the empire itself.

Cool theory though.

Do we actually have any proof that the 'Empire of the Dawn' actually is this massive pre-Long Night empire and not mythical history of Yi Ti?

[LmL]

Daenerys miscarriage dream at the end of AGOT.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Daenerys miscarriage dream at the end of AGOT.

I don't think I will ever understand how the hell people are able to catch details like that.

[LmL]

Fifth re-read? ;)

Naw I'm naturally drawn to all the dreams and visions, and especially the ancient history. So I focus on that stuff.

[LordImp]

What could the Lion of night be? A deity like R'Hllor or an actual demon who attacked the Empire of Dawn?

Any toughts ?

[LmL]

I think it was the darkened sun. During the LN, the cloud cover would have made the sun appear dark grey and purple, when it was visible at all.

[LordImp]

Have you noticed, in the shadowlands and Asshai, it's always dark and the sun is visible only sometimes?

I think this cloud clover still exists in the shadowlands. I'm not sure why it hasn't gone yet.

Has to be something about the magic in Asshai , wonder what kind of magic they are doing their must be something really dark.

[barristan-b]

Do we actually have any proof that the 'Empire of the Dawn' actually is this massive pre-Long Night empire and not mythical history of Yi Ti?

I just love the idea of a grand forgotten/lost precursor civilization as it's implied.

The stories/myths came from somewhere though so I'm thinking there had to be something in place. After the great warrior brought "light and love" back to the world, "for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day". I think that right there may give a hint to what happened and/or what may come. The bittersweet end, light restored but a broken world where humans have dispersed.

Also, something I was thinking about on a quick reread is that after the Blood Betrayal, "the maiden made of light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of the Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of man"

I think this could be a myth placing people on the conditions of Planetos. The light maiden turning her back could be magic going away/seasons shifting and the lion of the night could then be a long night. It makes me think maybe the seasonal aspects of the planet include magic & weather. Magic has fire/ice seasons just like the weather and the pieces of the broken moon/comets/star/or whatever it was that brought dragons and blood magic (in myth) can restore the world and defeat the night.

[LmL]

Have you noticed, in the shadowlands and Asshai, it's always dark and the sun is visible only sometimes?

I think this cloud clover still exists in the shadowlands. I'm not sure why it hasn't gone yet.

Yep, I certainly did. More evidence that Azor Ahai and lIghtbringer were tied to the CAUSE of the Long Night, and not the cure. Also evidence that the fire magic of the red priests has more shadow than light.

[LmL]

Has to be something about the magic in Asshai , wonder what kind of magic they are doing their must be something really dark.

Hmm... dark fire magic? Like, “blackfyre?” Shadow Fire, like the great stone beast breathed in Dany’s vision?

Black flame, such as comes out of the mouth of all the black dragons - Drogon, Balerion the Black Dread, and the Cannibal?

Yes I think the fire magic of Asshai by the Shadow is again, more shadow than light. Which makes their opposition of the Great Other, supposedly the Lord of Darkness, highly dubious.

[LmL]

I just love the idea of a grand forgotten/lost precursor civilization as it's implied.

The stories/myths came from somewhere though so I'm thinking there had to be something in place. After the great warrior brought "light and love" back to the world, "for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to our present day". I think that right there may give a hint to what happened and/or what may come. The bittersweet end, light restored but a broken world where humans have dispersed.

Also, something I was thinking about on a quick reread is that after the Blood Betrayal, "the maiden made of light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of the Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of man"

I think this could be a myth placing people on the conditions of Planetos. The light maiden turning her back could be magic going away/seasons shifting and the lion of the night could then be a long night. It makes me think maybe the seasonal aspects of the planet include magic & weather. Magic has fire/ice seasons just like the weather and the pieces of the broken moon/comets/star/or whatever it was that brought dragons and blood magic (in myth) can restore the world and defeat the night.

Agree, and I’m going to attempt to explain why this is so in more detail in Part 3.

[LmL]

Do we actually have any proof that the 'Empire of the Dawn' actually is this massive pre-Long Night empire and not mythical history of Yi Ti?

I think I have laid out some already, but that is going to be it’s own essay. I believe I can prove this.