So , Rhaegar's love is love, but Robert's love is crap?

[zennyrpg]

I think we may find out that both men loved her, insofar as much as they had it in them to love. Love isn't just one thing, it's not neat, and it's certainly not politically correct. The world would be a lot less messy if it was.

Agreed. I think that Robert did love her and that his love is not contingent on him not sleeping around before or after marriage. If you asked Robert about sleeping around, he'd probably say there's no reason for him not to and it has nothing to do with Lyanna. Its socially acceptable (maybe not encouraged but common enough) and acceptable to him. He loved her, but I don't think his outlook on love matched with Lyanna's.

Now, if you believe that Lyanna+Raegar is more than kidnapping, then Raegar must have given something to Lyanna that Robert couldn't. Maybe he was just her type physically. But based upon Lyanna's objections to Robert sleeping around, I think its more probable that he offered her a love that lined up with her ideas of love. She may not have cared that he was married, as long as his "heart" was with her. She may even have been okay with him still loving Elia, as long as that didn't diminish the connection that her and Raegar had.

In other words, I don't think her actions were necessarily hypocritical. She may not have thought "all people who have sex outside marriage are bad" and instead thought "Robert's actions lead me to believe that he sees sex and love as totally different things, while I could only have sex with someone I really love and therefore I (believe we will have an unhappy marriage/find him unattractive because of his beliefs/don't want to have sex with him)."

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Maybe she would have taken it less personally since it's somewhat the norm for Dorne?

Perhaps. However, part of me can't see her excusing in Oberyn what she disliked about Robert. After all, no one allows R+L supporters to use the "she's from Dorne" thing to explain why/how Elia would be OK with the affair.

But here's where I see what you're saying. Robert could have all the lovers he wanted, but he would have taken apart any man who dared lay a finger on Elia. Oberyn, on the other hand, would have not only encouraged Lyanna to have all the men (and women) she wanted, he'd be cheering her on the sidelines, providing directions and assistance. That's the Dornish difference.

(And we don't actually know the R+L=J details. For all we know, the plan could have been for a group marriage like Visenya/Aegon/Rhaenys, as JCRB notes. We don't even know Elia's orientation for sure. Or Elia could have felt slighted and offended, as most of us think. But we don't know.)

However, I actually think that with her "wolf blood," marriage and motherhood would have given Lyanna a different view of things. Who knows, in some alternate scenario, Lyanna could have kept Robert so busy in bed that he'd have little extra energy for serving maids or tavern wenches. Many highborn ladies didn't have the physical strength for vigorous intercourse in our own past; Lyanna was athletic and strong, so she could match him for stamina.

Or in another alternate scenario, if Lyanna became the wife of Oberyn, she could have learned that she liked sex with both men and women, one or the other, or neither. I am not sure Oberyn would do monogamy as we know it, because I just think the Dornish (or Rhoynar) concept is very different. This isn't just from what we know about Oberyn; we've also gotten inside Arianne's head and met the Sand Snakes, and we know Ashara likely slept with someone at Harrenhal. Different culture. He would not understand that "if you love me, you only sleep with me" -- I believe he and Ellaria were truly in love.

Whoever Lyanna married and whatever situation she ended up in would have changed her circumstances, and she'd react to those changes. We don't know enough about her to know anything about her sexual preferences in canon... just that she very likely gave birth to Jon before she died.

[Ser Eric]

Robert and Cersei's marriage is essentially what would have taken place between Robert and Lyanna, only the attitudes of the genders are reversed. Lyanna was largely indifferent -- if not disdainful -- of Robert, while Robert imagined himself in love with Lyanna. Robert didn't really care for Cersei, but Cersei thought all of her dreams were coming true by marrying a king. There's no sense in speculating whether or not Robert and Lyanna would have worked out, because the text tells us otherwise. Ned explicitly states that Robert didn't know her. Robert says Lyanna would have never sassed him in public, which is pretty much what she would be doing all day, every day. Lyanna shrewdly points out that he'd never keep to her bed

We don't know that. Robert post rebellion was different from the Robert before the rebellion. Sure, he drank and whored but there's no indication that any of it had any kind of negative effect or influence on him. Robert didn't know Lyanna, sure, but who knows what would have happened once he did get to know her. She might have had a positive influence on him or maybe Robert would have eventually gotten over his attraction/love to Lyanna. We don't know. You bring up Ned, he also states quite explicitly that this Robert was very different from the one he became friends with. As for Cersie that marriage never even stood a chance for multiple reasons and not all of it down to Robert, I might add.

All of Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna come across as pricks but at least Robert stays true to himself and recognizes his flaws to the end. Lyanna was just a selfish hypocrite and less said the better about Rhaegar.

[ummester]

However, I actually think that with her wolf blood, marriage and motherhood would have given Lyanna a different view of things.

Well that's true.

Neither Lyanna, Robert or Rhaegar knew what was good for them, as it all turned out.

Folly of youth.

[tongji86]

Maybe Lyanna was hypocrite for going with a married man, or Rhaegar a bad husband for loving another woman other than the perfect Elia, or Robert not sincere for sleeping around after he was betrothed to Lyanna. But love is love, even if it caused death.

I see a lot of love stories in asoiaf, not just Lyanna/Rhaegar/Robert/Elia. i agree with one of the posts that the kidnap was staged by Rhaegar to protect Lyanna's reputation. He took all the blame for their relations, though in reality she could be the one who ran away.

[TheNinjaDC]

Robert lusted for Lyanna, in a physical and emotional sense.

Rhaegar may have loved Lyanna, but we don't know for sure. His final words being her name, does heavily imply however.

Lyanna was disgusted by Robert for his whoring ways.

[ummester]

All of Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna come across as pricks but at least Robert stays true to himself and recognizes his flaws to the end. Lyanna was just a selfish hypocrite and less said the better about Rhaegar.

But, in Lyanna and Rhaegar's defence, they don't live long enough to realise their foolishness.

Stupid kids. Seriously, if Aerys wasn't a nut bag, he should have taken Rhaegar aside and chastised him for being a fool.

[tongji86]

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna did fall in love, what would be the best possible way to be together? Things went wrong because mad king murdered people.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Agreed. I think that Robert did love her and that his love is not contingent on him not sleeping around before or after marriage. If you asked Robert about sleeping around, he'd probably say there's no reason for him not to and it has nothing to do with Lyanna. Its socially acceptable (maybe not encouraged but common enough) and acceptable to him. He loved her, but I don't think his outlook on love matched with Lyanna's.

Now, if you believe that Lyanna+Raegar is more than kidnapping, then Raegar must have given something to Lyanna that Robert couldn't. Maybe he was just her type physically. But based upon Lyanna's objections to Robert sleeping around, I think its more probable that he offered her a love that lined up with her ideas of love. She may not have cared that he was married, as long as his "heart" was with her. She may even have been okay with him still loving Elia, as long as that didn't diminish the connection that her and Raegar had.

In other words, I don't think her actions were necessarily hypocritical. She may not have thought "all people who have sex outside marriage are bad" and instead thought "Robert's actions lead me to believe that he sees sex and love as totally different things, while I could only have sex with someone I really love and therefore I (believe we will have an unhappy marriage/find him unattractive because of his beliefs/don't want to have sex with him)."

:agree: If she chose to go with Rhaegar of her own free will, I think she rationalized it. And like tongji86 pointed out, I'm sure he would have taken the fall for her in order to protect her honor.

[ummester]

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna did fall in love, what would be the best possible way to be together? Things went wrong because mad king murdered people.

Elope.

Even if the mad King wasn't mad, I think Rhaegar's Targyrean sense of entitlement would still have led to war. The dragons were gone and the realm was ripe for it.

[Squab]

:agree: If she chose to go with Rhaegar of her own free will, I think she rationalized it. And like tongji86 pointed out, I'm sure he would have taken the fall for her in order to protect her honor.

Her honour? She was fucking a married man with kids. Takes 2 to tango. Plus it started a war. Perfect example where duty would have saved lives rather than following your heart or the thing between your legs.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna did fall in love, what would be the best possible way to be together? Things went wrong because mad king murdered people.

Exactly what many of us think they did -- run away, get married, consummate it, and hope for the best.

I actually think that there was no way to prevent a war by 281. If it wasn't RR, there was going to be another civil war. But if Jon is in any way important, the timing of his birth was key, because he had to be old enough to fulfill whatever role he may have. Rhaegar could have been honorable, Lyanna could have married Robert, there'd be no Jon, and they could have hoped for the best...

But the dragon must have three heads.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Her honour? She was fucking a married man with kids. Takes 2 to tango. Plus it started a war. Perfect example where duty would have saved lives rather than following your heart or the thing between your legs.

Duty?

In most cases, of course.

In this case? No.

Following their duty instead of their hearts would mean that Jon Snow wouldn't exist. Perhaps the realm (and the world) would be OK without his existence, but GRRM has spent 5 books planting flashing neon signs pointing to Ned Stark's supposed bastard son. I think he's important.

The realm was going to bleed anyway whether R+L eloped or not. It's just more poetic to blame lovers' follies than (boring) politics.

[Alaynsa Starne]

We don't know that. Robert post rebellion was different from the Robert before the rebellion. Sure, he drank and whored but there's no indication that any of it had any kind of negative effect or influence on him. Robert didn't know Lyanna, sure, but who knows what would have happened once he did get to know her. She might have had a positive influence on him or maybe Robert would have eventually gotten over his attraction/love to Lyanna. We don't know. You bring up Ned, he also states quite explicitly that this Robert was very different from the one he became friends with. As for Cersie that marriage never even stood a chance for multiple reasons and not all of it down to Robert, I might add.

All of Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna come across as pricks but at least Robert stays true to himself and recognizes his flaws to the end. Lyanna was just a selfish hypocrite and less said the better about Rhaegar.

I assume you mean back in the good ol' days when Robert was totally chill with Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys getting brutally slaughtered before Lyanna was dead and before years at court bored him into being a negligent father, a wife-beater, and an absentee king. Or perhaps you mean way before that while they were in the Vale. In peace time. Before Robert had faced major adversity, in which his true character came out. See the above sentences for the results of that.

Also, a man recognizing his flaws -- of which Robert has many -- and doing nothing to change them is hardly praiseworthy. Especially when it comes to the detriment of an entire continent.

[Squab]

Duty?

In most cases, of course.

In this case? No.

Following their duty instead of their hearts would mean that Jon Snow wouldn't exist. Perhaps the realm (and the world) would be OK without his existence, but GRRM has spent 5 books planting flashing neon signs pointing to Ned Stark's supposed bastard son. I think he's important.

The realm was going to bleed anyway whether R+L eloped or not. It's just more poetic to blame lovers' follies than (boring) politics.

If she went willingly, they are both to blame for the death and destruction that occured for roberts rebellion including ned not marrying his love and cersei and robert's mess. Jon is still not the "saviour" of anything, in fact the defence of the realm at the wall may be worse off.

Following her duty would have been better off short term and at best, inconclusive long term

It is impossible to know if the realm would "bleed anyway whether R+L eloped or not". Thats speculation masquerading as fact.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Her honour? She was fucking a married man with kids. Takes 2 to tango. Plus it started a war. Perfect example where duty would have saved lives rather than following your heart or the thing between your legs.

Pretty sure there were multiple causes that started the war. Like Aerys' insanity. And Rhaegar plotting to overthrow Aerys. And Tywin getting mad at Aerys for stealing his heir (not sure that this had anything to do with the start of RR, but it feels super relevant). And Varys destabilizing Aerys further. And Brandon being stupid. And Aerys continuing to be insane and roasting/strangling an LP and his heir. And then Aerys being even more insane and calling for the heads of innocent people. And Jon Arryn, Ned, and Robert calling their banners. And Ned marrying Cat to seal the Riverlands alliance.

Basically, a lot of people were to blame for RR, Aerys first and foremost. Lyanna and Rhaegar starting a war with their sex life is contingent on everyone else being absolute fucktards. Because, you know, if people were rational, the response would have been:

"Hey, Aerys, man. This is uncomfortable, but I think my kid ran away with yours. Anything we can do about that?"

At which point, Aerys does NOT respond with "BURN THEM ALL" but rather with a polite "You know, I think I can send some KG out to get the little bastards."

And then everyone is awkward and embarrassed around each other, but nobody's dead. Perfect example of when everyone does their duty as human beings to not suck rather than whipping out what's between their legs to see whose is biggest.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

If she went willingly, they are both to blame for the death and destruction that occured for roberts rebellion including ned not marrying his love and cersei and robert's mess. Jon is still not the "saviour" of anything, in fact the defence of the realm at the wall may be worse off.

Following her duty would have been better off short term and at best, inconclusive long term

It is impossible to know if the realm would "bleed anyway whether R+L eloped or not". Thats speculation masquerading as fact.

There's an interesting thread about who and what sparked RR. I disagree that R+L were the sole causes. I think they were a triggering factor in the cascade that led to the war, but RR was triggered when Aerys burned a LP, his heir, and other lords, and then asked another LP to give him the heads of two other LPs.

I am convinced there would have been a war anyway. Realm was tense and unstable, and the last conciliator who might have diffused the entire situation, Aerys and Tywin's friend Steffon Baratheon, was long gone. TWOIAF sealed that growing sense. But of course, everyone's mileage varies.

Put it this way: had Rhaegar and Lyanna followed duty, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, because neither these books nor these boards would exist. We should at least appreciate those two for their storytelling and entertainment value.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

If there is the name of a woman on Rhaegar's lips asked the men who have one they may love their wives, mothers and girlfriends but the true apple of their eyes is their daughter .

Rhaegar ,Robert , Lyanna should have married them both just to keep them out of trouble. If Robert wasn't doing the kitchen drabs , Rhaegar would be kidnapping young Margaery Tyrell or Roslyn Frey to fulfill some prophecy nod, nod wink , wink .

[Ser Eric]

I assume you mean back in the good ol' days when Robert was totally chill with Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys getting brutally slaughtered before Lyanna was dead and before years at court bored him into being a negligent father, a wife-beater, and an absentee king. Or perhaps you mean way before that while they were in the Vale. In peace time. Before Robert had faced major adversity, in which his true character came out. See the above sentences for the results of that.

Also, a man recognizing his flaws -- of which Robert has many -- and doing nothing to change them is hardly praiseworthy. Especially when it comes to the detriment of an entire continent.

Not sure what your point is given that all of it happened post rebellion.

As for Elia and the kids, he neither killed them nor ordered them to be killed and nor was he ever likely to kill them. That wasn't his doing and what he said was his anger breaking through which at that point was very understandable. The rest of your post is complete bollocks. Let's ignore everything about Robert before the rebellion because he wasn't facing diversity (lol) but let's take into account what he said when he was obviously very angry ecause of course that shows his true anger. Yep, you're opinions are certainly very balanced.

But, in Lyanna and Rhaegar's defence, they don't live long enough to realise their foolishness.

Stupid kids. Seriously, if Aerys wasn't a nut bag, he should have taken Rhaegar aside and chastised him for being a fool.

True, but the hatred for Robert when he was the least culpable of the 3 of them is amusing. Rhaegar and Saint Lyanna can do no wrong of course.

[Ser Eric]

Basically, a lot of people were to blame for RR, Aerys first and foremost. Lyanna and Rhaegar starting a war with their sex life is contingent on everyone else being absolute fucktards. Because, you know, if people were rational, the response would have been:

"Hey, Aerys, man. This is uncomfortable, but I think my kid ran away with yours. Anything we can do about that?"

At which point, Aerys does NOT respond with "BURN THEM ALL" but rather with a polite "You know, I think I can send some KG out to get the little bastards."

And then everyone is awkward and embarrassed around each other, but nobody's dead. Perfect example of when everyone does their duty as human beings to not suck rather than whipping out what's between their legs to see whose is biggest.

Aerys wasn't rational. Aerys was mad. Rhaegar knew that and probably half the kingdom did at that point. Blaming the mad man for not being rational is all kinds of stupid. When you put your hands into the fire, they will burn. The blame lies primarily on Rhaegar for shirking his responsibility.