Heresy 141 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

The rangers speak of some of his wives being his daughters, and given that there are a number of older women that would also indicate that initially at least not all were his daughters.

Could some be sisters seeing as if it might be a generation thing.

[Lady Barbrey]

Bran had/has the luxury of Jojen and Bloodraven as mentors which puts him already at an advantage. Jon was approached by Mel glad that fell through and Arya by the Kindly man.Different possible modes of unlocking the Stark kids gift.we may want to consider being entombed in a Weirwood may be just one depicted by one faction which is Bloodraven and the tree huggers.We have no idea how the Stark kids full potential might manifest if they are mentored by different.

I hold to them being for a better word being Greenseers whose abilities can be unlocked.im also saying not all of them "should".I think there is who magic chose and what individuals like Bloodraven take it upon themselves to do.

Yes it's possible though my 'intuition' says it's only Bran as greenseer with possible Rick on as an accidental secondary one. No basis on more than that really.

Makes one really wonder about Catelyn Tully. Is it an accident that it seemed she almost had to be married to a Stark? First Brandon, then that falls through so it has to be Ned. Were some of the old lords in the know about something and these weren't just marriages for politics but for getting at the right bloodline? Why did the Blackfish refuse marriage? Did he know something about the game and want no part of it? And the Tully's father's guilt about Lyssa and the moon tea? Would some catastrophe have happened if she bore Little fingers child rather than Jon Arryns? It's reminiscent of Arthurian saga where Merlin knows Arthur can only be born of Ygraine and Uthor so we get a war and a skin change to make it happen. And that's just with Ned and Catelyn's kids. Look what happened to Westeros because Jon had to be born.

Who is the wizard, if there is one, behind the politics and the magic all aligning so these kids with the right bloodlines would be born at the right time? If a little late, as Bloodraven tells Bran about his arrival. My money is on Bloodraven as being a big part of it but who are his allies if any in the political and social world?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Craster's wives. I didn't know that not all of them are his daughters - I must have missed that discussion. What is the evidence for that? Obviously the very first couldn't be his daughter, I remember discussion that she might have been his mother, which would again fit very well with the notion that the gift can only be inherited from your mother..

Well of course Sansa is still a warg as in she has the ability (gift), but she is not practicing and maybe never will. That's why I called her a dormant skinchanger. I'd love to read that quote of GRRM, if he really said that the children 'inherited' their abilities that would be a major revelation.

I think there can be no doubt that Rickon is a warg and greendreamer. I even believe that Rickon will be the most obvious and strongest warg of them all. He basically had the wolf for his entire life and will be hard pressed to even remember a time before. Unlike the other children he never really had the time to develop a sense of self and a personality. He is the wolf and the wolf is him - no separation at all.

That is a little troubling. It's not good to lose oneself in the wolf. He could end up like Noam. :) Seriously, I hope he can keep a good wolfish balance. If not, if/when he returns to the story line he may be mad. Wouldn't that be a terrible revelation.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Could some be sisters seeing as if it might be a generation thing.

Do you mean the non daughter wives as sisters? Why not. They do like to keep it in the family

ETA I guess you were speaking of Craster's sisters.

[Armstark]

The rangers speak of some of his wives being his daughters, and given that there are a number of older women that would also indicate that initially at least not all were his daughters.

Thank you!

That is a little troubling. It's not good to lose oneself in the wolf. He could end up like Noam. :) Seriously, I hope he can keep a good wolfish balance. If not, if/when he returns to the story line he may be mad. Wouldn't that be a terrible revelation.

Yes indeed. I think in general we will see some dark shit going down in TWOW and most of it done by Starks. It's A Time for Wolves after all.

You have Bran in the cave learning (dark) magic. Arya in Bravos killing people. Sansa's storyline is destined for some questionable moral choices as well (oh sweet Robin, I fear for you). Rickon coming back more wolf than man to rule Winterfell (unlike other child Lords he has physical power through his wolf). And my personal favorite: Benjen Stark coming back and rule with an iron fist as the 999th LC.

[Lady Barbrey]

That is a little troubling. It's not good to lose oneself in the wolf. He could end up like Noam. :) Seriously, I hope he can keep a good wolfish balance. If not, if/when he returns to the story line he may be mad. Wouldn't that be a terrible revelation.

Unfortunately, I've had that suspicion for some time. Fortunately I never got attached to him so I'm just selfishly glad it is not Bran that might be mad.

[Lady Barbrey]

Thank you!

Yes indeed. I think in general we will see some dark shit going down in TWOW and most of it done by Starks. It's A Time for Wolves after all.

You have Bran in the cave learning (dark) magic. Arya in Bravos killing people. Sansa's storyline is destined for some questionable moral choices as well (oh sweet Robin, I fear for you). Rickon coming back more wolf than man to rule Winterfell (unlike other child Lords he has physical power through his wolf). And my personal favorite: Benjen Stark coming back and rule with an iron fist as the 999th LC.

I can see all of that maybe happening even if you're tongue in cheek! I think the Faceless Men want to destroy the world and will want to use Arya as a major tool to do it. Aim her at Dany, cause their ancestors might have had a hand in the Doom assassinating the mages that kept the fires in check. They don't like Targs I think.

[King Tyrion XX]

Yes it's possible though my 'intuition' says it's only Bran as greenseer with possible Rick on as an accidental secondary one. No basis on more than that really.

Makes one really wonder about Catelyn Tully. Is it an accident that it seemed she almost had to be married to a Stark? First Brandon, then that falls through so it has to be Ned. Were some of the old lords in the know about something and these weren't just marriages for politics but for getting at the right bloodline? Why did the Blackfish refuse marriage? Did he know something about the game and want no part of it? And the Tully's father's guilt about Lyssa and the moon tea? Would some catastrophe have happened if she bore Little fingers child rather than Jon Arryns? It's reminiscent of Arthurian saga where Merlin knows Arthur can only be born of Ygraine and Uthor so we get a war and a skin change to make it happen. And that's just with Ned and Catelyn's kids. Look what happened to Westeros because Jon had to be born.

Who is the wizard, if there is one, behind the politics and the magic all aligning so these kids with the right bloodlines would be born at the right time? If a little late, as Bloodraven tells Bran about his arrival. My money is on Bloodraven as being a big part of it but who are his allies if any in the political and social world?

What happened to Westeros because Jon had to be born?

[Lady Barbrey]

Y'all have got me thinking about Bloodraven's endgame. If he's a greenseer through his mom, and could actually get glimpses of the future way back when, then his absolute enmity to the Blackfyres could be explained. Perhaps he saw the scion of a Blackfyre house potentially ruining his endgame. In the end he was intent on their absolute decimation as his murder of the last one makes clear, for which he was sent to the Wall - new info from the World Book. That means that the real fly in his ointment, the big enemy to his plans, is not Dany but FAegon.

I will try to find the Martin interview about the kid's abilities. My memory is not the best but that one is pretty clear. It was a year or so ago and I was interested in Sansa, so the interview was likely connected to her. I'm new to posting on forums, but I have over the years listened to interviews with Martin just because the books intrigued me. Perhaps someone else on here knows where it might be?

[Lady Barbrey]

What happened to Westerns because Jon had to be born?

The Rebellion.

[Armstark]

I can see all of that maybe happening even if you're tongue in cheek! I think the Faceless Men want to destroy the world and will want to use Arya as a major tool to do it. Aim her at Dany, cause their ancestors might have had a hand in the Doom assassinating the mages that kept the fires in check. They don't like Targs I think.

I think everything that I listed is likely to happen. Except of course Benjen Stark which is more of a personal hunch of me devoid of evidence or foreshadowing. Seeing the returned (from the dead?) Benjen as he deals with the fallout of Jon's assassination through the eyes of Melisandre (our only POV at the Wall) will be so much fun. Maybe he even pulls a Euron Greyjoy and shows up the day after the murder ;)

I think the Faceless Men actually are pro Targaryen. Above all else they are anti-slavery and the Targaryens do not enslave their dragons through magic horns. I like your suggestion that the Targaryens killed the mages and caused the doom which would fit the theme of self-fulfilling prophecies. But the Kindly Man claims responsibility for the doom, so I think it was Targaryens and FM who caused the doom.

[Lady Barbrey]

Okay couldn't find the video but a quote from it was repeated on the Citadel. Martin was asked "Do all the Stark children have warging/skin changing abilities?" And he answered "To a greater or lesser degree yes, but the amount of control varies widely".

[Lady Barbrey]

I think everything that I listed is likely to happen. Except of course Benjen Stark which is more of a personal hunch of me devoid of evidence or foreshadowing. Seeing the returned (from the dead?) Benjen as he deals with the fallout of Jon's assassination through the eyes of Melisandre (our only POV at the Wall) will be so much fun. Maybe he even pulls a Euron Greyjoy and shows up the day after the murder ;)

I think the Faceless Men actually are pro Targaryen. Above all else they are anti-slavery and the Targaryens do not enslave their dragons through magic horns. I like your suggestion that the Targaryens killed the mages and caused the doom which would fit the theme of self-fulfilling prophecies. But the Kindly Man claims responsibility for the doom, so I think it was Targaryens and FM who caused the doom.

Oops I think I wasn't clear. I think the FM caused the Doom to spite the Valyrians who enslaved their ancestors. That Death to all is their goal. I wasn't saying that the Targs helped them with that. But wouldn't that be interesting if the Targs were in on it with them, now that it has been accidentally proposed? Unlikely, but intriguing!

[Armstark]

Oops I think I wasn't clear. I think the FM caused the Doom to spite the Valyrians who enslaved their ancestors. That Death to all is their goal. I wasn't saying that the Targs helped them with that. But wouldn't that be interesting if the Targs were in on it with them, now that it has been accidentally proposed? Unlikely, but intriguing!

In this case I will claim the idea as my own :cool4: :cheers:

I thought about it some more and actually think it makes some sense. Imagine you are Aenys Targaryen and you daughter has a prophetic dream that your home, Valyria, will be destroyed in a great fiery catastrophe. His first instinct must have been to prevent it from happening. So he hires the FM to kill the fire mages because they won't stop with their dangerous magic. Little did he know that he causes the doom by doing that. The FM might have known though.

[Lady Barbrey]

I think everything that I listed is likely to happen. Except of course Benjen Stark which is more of a personal hunch of me devoid of evidence or foreshadowing. Seeing the returned (from the dead?) Benjen as he deals with the fallout of Jon's assassination through the eyes of Melisandre (our only POV at the Wall) will be so much fun. Maybe he even pulls a Euron Greyjoy and shows up the day after the murder ;)

Brilliant!

From my own speculations concerning the Starks and Ice Magic genes (differentiated from Earth magic genes which they also carry), I'm almost convinced Benjen is an Other now. So I don't see that out of the range of possibilities!

[Lady Barbrey]

In this case I will claim the idea as my own :cool4: :cheers:

I defer to you, sir!

[King Tyrion XX]

The Rebellion.

But we don't even know who either of Jon's parents are.

[Lady Barbrey]

Oh and Amstark I've been trying to figure out how Jon could be turned by an Other and brought back to life instead of through Melisandre. But stymied because they can't get through the Wall. Maybe Benjen can? Or they take Jon's body to the 'Other' side and that's where the Others interfere? Just imagination, as is yours, but I'd prefer the Ice before the Fire for more drama.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes it's possible though my 'intuition' says it's only Bran as greenseer with possible Rick on as an accidental secondary one. No basis on more than that really.

Makes one really wonder about Catelyn Tully. Is it an accident that it seemed she almost had to be married to a Stark? First Brandon, then that falls through so it has to be Ned. Were some of the old lords in the know about something and these weren't just marriages for politics but for getting at the right bloodline? Why did the Blackfish refuse marriage? Did he know something about the game and want no part of it? And the Tully's father's guilt about Lyssa and the moon tea? Would some catastrophe have happened if she bore Little fingers child rather than Jon Arryns? It's reminiscent of Arthurian saga where Merlin knows Arthur can only be born of Ygraine and Uthor so we get a war and a skin change to make it happen. And that's just with Ned and Catelyn's kids. Look what happened to Westeros because Jon had to be born.

Who is the wizard, if there is one, behind the politics and the magic all aligning so these kids with the right bloodlines would be born at the right time? If a little late, as Bloodraven tells Bran about his arrival. My money is on Bloodraven as being a big part of it but who are his allies if any in the political and social world?

I think there must always be two.Mel had that right atlease.Its the timeless Oak and Holly King scenario over and over again.Bloodraven's position is definitely that of the Oak king.I just have my doubts that Bran is the one that is suppossed to sit cross from Jon who has Holly King written all over him.I don't know how Cat plays into all of this ( if she has Blackwood blood or not,can't remember actually).I believe there was some political scheming going on alongside the magical and the political in some misguided way may have been influenced by the magical but to what extent :dunno:

Do you mean the non daughter wives as sisters? Why not. They do like to keep it in the family

ETA I guess you were speaking of Craster's sisters.

Yeah,who knows he may have a couple of aunts thrown in there.Some of those women are pretty old.....Keep it in the family har!

I can see all of that maybe happening even if you're tongue in cheek! I think the Faceless Men want to destroy the world and will want to use Arya as a major tool to do it. Aim her at Dany, cause their ancestors might have had a hand in the Doom assassinating the mages that kept the fires in check. They don't like Targs I think.

I don't know about the FM wanting to destroy the world but given the uncanny similarity between BR and the Kindly man "other image" and preoccupation with death i would not dismiss it. But i will say this anyone that uses a Stark kid as a tool is like having a nuke.Arya is going to be the greatest FM in that order.I do think the FM don't have good intentions but again how far is that rabbit hole.

[wolfmaid7]

Oh and Amstark I've been trying to figure out how Jon could be turned by an Other and brought back to life instead of through Melisandre. But stymied because they can't get through the Wall. Maybe Benjen can? Or they take Jon's body to the 'Other' side and that's where the Others interfere? Just imagination, as is yours, but I'd prefer the Ice before the Fire for more drama.

"The cold winds are rising, and the dead rise with them." - Tyrion