Heresy 141 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[aDanceWithFlagons]

"Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.

I don't think BR can communicate with people. I think Bran can. I don't think the past can be changed because it is a stable time loop, like in Terminator or the self fulfilling prophecy of Oedipus Rex.

It is a stable time loop.

When Bran was viewing the past through the weirwood he said, "Winterfell." Ned heard the whispering of the wind in the leaves as something more and asked, "Whose there?" In the timeline though, that always happened to Ned, even before Bran was born, Ned heard that whisper. So Bran cannot change the events of the past because his attempts to communicate with the past already happened - stable time loop.

Another example is the Hitler scenario: Someone goes back to kill Hitler as a baby and replace him with a new baby. Turns out that new baby grew to become Hitler. In this action, the person who tried to get rid of Hitler actually created Hitler fulfilling the sequence of events leading to his rise.

In Terminator, Skynet sends back the Terminator to kill John Connor, but if the Terminator was never sent back into time Sarah Connor would have never met Kyle Reese and made John Connor and likewise Skynet would have never been created if humans did not find the Terminator technology to help develop it.

So, and this is still a big 'if' (we are working with and debating with what we are given up to this point), Bran can communicate with the past, not just learning from it as BR says, he is not changing anything but simply fulfilling the current timeline and fate within a stable time loop.

Cool. I agree with you here. The point about Ned hearing that whisper, I meant it in the same as you describe. Only I was more vague in my posts.:laugh:

[Voice]

As i said below that whole "blood mixture" is made mince because Jon is more like the sittting GS so it still wouldn't make a difference.His blood will still make him a GS if it was a matter of "mixture". Really? "mixture".

As to Bran "guiding his dreams" as if that would matter.When exactly has Bran exhibited ability to "guide" where his dreams go? If your speaking of Skirling pass,then i'll see that, and raise you Jon's crypt dream.

Nah. Actually just came across one today on my reread. Jon's crypt dreams are frightened peeks into a story that always end just before the climax. Jon has no control of the circumstances, nor his own decisions.

[Matthew.]

Well if we believe BR when he tells Bran "Your blood makes you a Greenseer" then Jon is a Greenseer.

I'm not so sure; I mean, I think Jon may very well be a GS, but I don't consider blood a guarantee. Jojen has green dreams, his sister does not; Varamyr could skinchange, while his kin did not appear to share his gifts. If anything, Bran's final ADWD chapter makes it clear that even within the Singers, someone being born a Greenseer was rare. I'm sure the right blood greatly increases your odds, but we don't have any textual basis to assume anyone other than Bran from the present Stark batch is a GS, until they actually display the gift.

[wolfmaid7]

"Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

I don't think BR can communicate with people. I think Bran can. I don't think the past can be changed because it is a stable time loop, like in Terminator or the self fulfilling prophecy of Oedipus Rex.

It is a stable time loop.

When Bran was viewing the past through the weirwood he said, "Winterfell." Ned heard the whispering of the wind in the leaves as something more and asked, "Whose there?" In the timeline though, that always happened to Ned, even before Bran was born, Ned heard that whisper. So Bran cannot change the events of the past because his attempts to communicate with the past already happened - stable time loop.

Another example is the Hitler scenario: Someone goes back to kill Hitler as a baby and replace him with a new baby. Turns out that new baby grew to become Hitler. In this action, the person who tried to get rid of Hitler actually created Hitler fulfilling the sequence of events leading to his rise.

In Terminator, Skynet sends back the Terminator to kill John Connor, but if the Terminator was never sent back into time Sarah Connor would have never met Kyle Reese and made John Connor and likewise Skynet would have never been created if humans did not find the Terminator technology to help develop it.

So, and this is still a big 'if' (we are working with and debating with what we are given up to this point), Bran can communicate with the past, not just learning from it as BR says, he is not changing anything but simply fulfilling the current timeline and fate within a stable time loop.

I wouldn't call this proof of communication Syrio.BR's statement prooves Bran's experiance with Ned. There is no discernable words that reached Ned only whispers.BR having tried to speak to members of his family many times had enough experiance to inform Bran that all Ned heard was a whisper on the wind.Neither of them can have any effect on the past they can only "learn" from it.

The present is something different they can definitely work a little mojo in the here and now.BR never said anything about "he's not changing anything only fulfilling current timelines."He made it clear what it is they can and can't do.Now maybe at one point Bran in some distant future might exceede that,maybe he won't. We don't know because the future is unclear.

Nah. Actually just came across one today on my reread. Jon's crypt dreams are frightened peeks into a story that always end just before the climax. Jon has no control of the circumstances, nor his own decisions.

This will be something we will agree to disagree on then because i beg to differ.If he is aware enough to think despite his fear he must go to the crypts then the only thing left for him to do is decide to go the full way.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not so sure; I mean, I think Jon may very well be a GS, but I don't consider blood a guarantee. Jojen has green dreams, his sister does not; Varamyr could skinchange, while his kin did not appear to share his gifts. If anything, Bran's final ADWD chapter makes it clear that even within the Singers, someone being born a Greenseer was rare. I'm sure the right blood greatly increases your odds, but we don't have any textual basis to assume anyone other than Bran from the present Stark batch is a GS, until they actually display the gift.

Bran has had the luxury of having BR to throw labels like greendreams and Wargs.Jon and the others not so much tuetalage on what their experiancing.So lets dispense with the labels a bit and just look at the nitty gritty and text which we do have.

I'm not sure for Arya and Sansa ,in truth i can't remeber if they had prophectic dreams or not.But Jon,Bran and Rickon have had prophetic dreams and all three are Wargs.

Then we have BR's rather weird statement to Bran "that the gods mark those they've choosen to recieve the gift." They have red or green eyes that points to Rickon and Jon via their Direwolves.

As to rareity,thats not viable in this case as being a Warg among Skinchangers was said to have been rare,yet 6 wargs have been born to the Stark family in one generation.I mean that's pretty spectacular.

I'm not sure about increasing your odds BR tells Bran his blood makes him a greenseer.And the Weirwood paste was just used to awaken what is already there and to wed him to the trees.

[Black Crow]

As to rareity, being a Warg among Skinchangers is said to have been rare,yet 6 have been born to the Stark family in one generation.

Yet the World Book reckons wargs to be the more common of the two and speaks of them as the default setting albeit with variations acknowledged. Now obviously Maester Yandel isn't an expert but it would be odd to assert the primacy of warging if they weren't at least a lot more prominent than appears to be the case now.

[Black Crow]

I'm not so sure; I mean, I think Jon may very well be a GS, but I don't consider blood a guarantee. Jojen has green dreams, his sister does not; Varamyr could skinchange, while his kin did not appear to share his gifts. If anything, Bran's final ADWD chapter makes it clear that even within the Singers, someone being born a Greenseer was rare. I'm sure the right blood greatly increases your odds, but we don't have any textual basis to assume anyone other than Bran from the present Stark batch is a GS, until they actually display the gift.

I'd agree with this. Jon is certainly a warg and it might be that he is a greendreamer, though I remain to be convinced of the latter, but even then Bran required the Jojen paste to unlock his potential. In this regard its worth observing that Bran is effectively learning to be a greenseer in a controlled environment; unleashing that power without intervention could be just a little bit problematic which is why I'd suspect that it needs those rituals and ultimately Kurtz' "horror" to move from green-dreaming to greens-seeing.

[wolfmaid7]

Yet the World Book reckons wargs to be the more common of the two and speaks of them as the default setting albeit with variations acknowledged. Now obviously Maester Yandel isn't an expert but it would be odd to assert the primacy of warging if they weren't at least a lot more prominent than appears to be the case now.

I don't think that dismisses what i said especially when we come to families.Again look at v6 he's had how many runts and none of them with the gift.He couldn't get one. But the Starks produce 6.

[Black Crow]

As to the time-travel question I think there's an element of over-analysing creeping in here. I think that the world is as it is and that the ambiguities serve simply to highlight that Bran although in this world is no longer of it, rather than setting up for a deus ex machina intervention of the kind which GRRM has promised to spare us.

[Black Crow]

I don't think that dismisses what i said especially when we come to families.Again look at v6 he's had how many runts and none of them with the gift.He couldn't get one. But the Starks produce 6.

And all of them wargs rather than "exotic" skinchangers

[wolfmaid7]

I'd agree with this. Jon is certainly a warg and it might be that he is a greendreamer, though I remain to be convinced of the latter, but even then Bran required the Jojen paste to unlock his potential. In this regard its worth observing that Bran is effectively learning to be a greenseer in a controlled environment; unleashing that power without intervention could be just a little bit problematic which is why I'd suspect that it needs those rituals and ultimately Kurtz' "horror" to move from green-dreaming to greens-seeing.

Part of what you're saying is what i mean.Bran has the benefit of BR helping him unlock what is there already.He may have grown into his power eventually without the help of BR's paste. Now then we have to ask if BR is being all premature unlocking Bran before he's ready.Jon was made an offer by Mel to help him unlock his gift before he got stabbed,its the same thing.They are would be tools.

It kind of reminds me of the alternate version of the garden of Eden.Being God wanted Adam and Eve to grow into that knowledge when they were ready. Lucifer push them into this knowledge when they weren't ready.

In a sense this is what the Crow represents ,(and why i think he is different from BR)the slow coming into of that power over time. When Bran began to fly really good the crow stopped him.When the tree was calling him the Crow ran interception.

BR with his "you've come to me at last Bran stark though the hour is late" was probably for whatever reason trying to speed up Bran's education.

[wolfmaid7]

And all of them wargs rather than "exotic" skinchangers

That again is my point, so to say that all of them aren't greenseers if they are "unlocked" is jumping the gun.To go back to your point about the world book recording a high percentage of Wargs.Remember the worldbook also made it sound as if there were several Greenseers.So the same applies there were alot more then than they are now.Its probably because the environment facilitated a lot more.Now we have a possibility of 6.

[Black Crow]

That again is my point, so to say that all of them aren't greenseers if they are "unlocked" is jumping the gun.To go back to your point about the world book recording a high percentage of Wargs.Remember the worldbook also made it sound as if there were several Greenseers.So the same applies there were alot more then than they are now.Its probably because the environment facilitated a lot more.Now we have a possibility of 6.

Oh there's no doubt that once upon a time there were more greenseers, and perhaps still are if there are other clans out there each with its own greenseer, but Leaf spoke of a hierarchy of demons and lesser demons; I forget the exact figures but she basically said that only one in so many was a green-dreamer and only one in so many of them a greenseer. Now those figures are obviously tolerably vague but the whole thing would be nonsense if all the Stark wargs turned out to be greenseers.

[wolfmaid7]

Oh there's no doubt that once upon a time there were more greenseers, and perhaps still are if there are other clans out there each with its own greenseer, but Leaf spoke of a hierarchy of demons and lesser demons; I forget the exact figures but she basically said that only one in so many was a green-dreamer and only one in so many of them a greenseer. Now those figures are obviously tolerably vague but the whole thing would be nonsense if all the Stark wargs turned out to be greenseers.

I don't get your meaning about a hierarchy but here's the quotes

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.” Bran, ADWD.

You’re a greenseer.”

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. Bran, ASoS

I respecfully disagree and it has to do with who is marked to recieve the gift (joining the trees) vs the quantity.6 Greenseers but two chosen is not ridiculous.Its no more ridiculous than all of them being Wargs.Especially if that is as it should be.

Conflicting info from BR and Jojen tells me that BR and that faction of COTF are probably doing things they aren't suppose to when it comes to Bran.

Again it is a matter of who could be unlocked vs who should be, this where i think the Crow comes in.He may not have wanted Bran to die,but he may not have wanted Bran to develop past a certain level.Which BR might be usurping.

So on a whole we have 6 kids who have the potential to be unlocked as GS( i think that's a poor label),but only two who should be unlocked.So the Stark kids being GSs and being unlocked is different than they all being planted as one.

[Taenqyrhae]

Communication backwards through time is time travel - all that needs to move backwards through time to cause a causality violation is data, and a vision or dream is data, especially if it has an effect on you. If Ned did hear Bran or if he did contact Jon from the future, that is time travel of a sort.

Even if Bran reaches back in time and causes a person to re-live their memories, if those memories have an effect on the person's behavior that is time travel. I have a hypothesis that Ned was having so many vivid memories while bedridden of his promise to his sister because future Bran was searching his memories, and that Ned re-living those memories of how he had to lie to keep a promise are part of what led to him deciding to admit to treason. A neat little causality loop.

[Syri0_F0rel]

I wouldn't call this proof of communication Syrio.BR's statement prooves Bran's experiance with Ned. There is no discernable words that reached Ned only whispers.BR having tried to speak to members of his family many times had enough experiance to inform Bran that all Ned heard was a whisper on the wind.Neither of them can have any effect on the past they can only "learn" from it.

The present is something different they can definitely work a little mojo in the here and now.BR never said anything about "he's not changing anything only fulfilling current timelines."He made it clear what it is they can and can't do.Now maybe at one point Bran in some distant future might exceede that,maybe he won't. We don't know because the future is unclear.

This will be something we will agree to disagree on then because i beg to differ.If he is aware enough to think despite his fear he must go to the crypts then the only thing left for him to do is decide to go the full way.

As to the time-travel question I think there's an element of over-analysing creeping in here. I think that the world is as it is and that the ambiguities serve simply to highlight that Bran although in this world is no longer of it, rather than setting up for a deus ex machina intervention of the kind which GRRM has promised to spare us.

Agreed, I can't prove Ned heard Bran say Winterfell or heard the whispering in the wind as more than whispering in the wind. I can only suspect and include passages to explain my suspicion. I would love for a Bran POV addressing the Theon encounter so I can make sense of what is going on. I don't think a stable time loop would be a dues ex machina considering the Greenseer powers, examples and explanations presented and I don't think anything Bran does with the weirwoods will be a big climatic reveal or plot twist. Still, I would much rather Bran be only able to see into the past and that is it, it is much easier and acceptable that way. Unexplained details make it difficult.

Laying out my suspicions and current conclusions about Bran is nauseating. I am an avid comic book reader and think 'Time travel' stories in any capacity are lame, and it is weird defending the theory. I, like everyone else, am trying to make sense out of the broad, deep, gap-filled and prophecy-dream riddled world that is ASOIAF, and look forward to what TWoW has to add.

[King Tyrion XX]

The issue is still being missed i think.

1. Again disernment has a lot to do with it,but the point being it "does" come down to disernment and if something is clear.I mean really clear.Case in point,point 2

2.Jojen's dream was both truth and lie. Rickon and Bran did die ( Theon killed them) so his greendream didn't lie.It was unclear though because It didn't see Theon's farce and you know what Bran and Rickon are still alive.

3.Once inside the weirwood i am speculating because off all the "possibilities" what they get isn't clear its changing all the time,glimpses.They are see below:

Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have

seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal

present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. (VERY IMPORTANT)

Notice "where you will" is only confined to the past.Look at the blue bolded.The text below at the bolded

Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a

weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its

flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They

root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn

is the oak. And the weirwood a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through

such gates you and I may gaze into the past.

"Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past

remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.

That doesn't rule out Bran having far stronger powers than Bloodraven. In fact there's a good deal of evidence to suggest he does/will.

I have looked into this extensively, and tend to believe Bran Stark from the current series is the same person as Bran the Builder. Bran the Builder may not have physically existed during the Age of Heroes but instead been Bran the Greenseer carrying out a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is extensive but I believe well laid out and worth your time

Bran Stark A Self Fulfilling Prophecy

(Content below includes content from a Dance of Dragons, The Winds of Winter and A World of Ice and Fire)

In this post I consider the connections between Bran Stark and Bran the Builder

Considerations

1) Bran the Builders projects

2) Bran Starks advanced knowledge of Winterfell

3) How trees see time

4) Knowledge in the weirwoods

5) Communicating through the weirwoods

6) Reincarnation or self fulfilling prophecy

7) What Eddard Stark knows

8) "But in time you will see beyond the trees themselves"

9) Additional Passages: Finding the pups and Jon's wolf dream in the Frost Fangs

1st Consideration:

Bran the Builder built The Wall and Storms End with Magic. Bran the Builder built Storms End and Winterfell under the watchful eyes of heart trees. At least two of the locations, the Wall and Storm's End have magical protection spells.

Bran the Builder built Winterfell around the heart tree under the trees watchful eye.

Game of Thrones Chapter 2 Catelyn 1

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. The heart tree, Ned called it. The weirwoods bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castles granite walls rise around them.

Bran the Builder uses magic in his construction of the wall. Cold Hands cannot pass the wall, wargs cannot slip into animals on an opposite side of the wall. The other known magical location is Storms end. Malisandre needed Davos to smuggle her into storms end since her shadow assassin could not breach the parameter of the walls.

Clash of Kings Chapter 42 Davos 2

There was no need, she said. He was unprotected. But here... this Storms End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass-ancient, forgotten, yet still in place.

It is rumored that Bran the Builder instructed Durran on the construction of Storms End.

Clash of Kings Chapter 31 Catelyn 3

Five more castles he built, each larger and stronger than the last, only to see them smashed asunder when the gale winds came howling up Shipbreaker Bay, driving great walls of water before them. His lords pleaded with him to build inland; his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea; even his smallfolk begged him to relent. Durran would have none of it. A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder. No matter how the tale was told, the end was the same. Though the angry gods threw storm after storm against it, the seventh castle stood defiant, and Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days.

Conclusion:

Bran the Builder built the Wall, built Winterfell and Storms End. Storms End and Winterfell have/had heart trees. It is not made clear if Bran the Builder was physically present as he instructed Duran.

2nd Consideration:

Bran Stark knows more about Winterfell than anyone at the young age of seven. Bran knew about a secret access point from outside of Winterfells 2nd Wall to the inside. Bran knew every stone of Winterfell and its topography.

Game of Thrones Chapter 8 Bran 2

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldnt even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

It taught him Winterfells secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didnt know that, Bran was convinced.

Game of Thrones Chapter 14 Catelyn 3

The boy had always been surehanded in the past, Maester Luwin said thoughtfully. He knew every stone in Winterfell.

Conclusion:

Bran knows significant secrets to the castle that no one else does, and feels like he is the Lord of the castle in a way Robb will never feel.

3rd Consideration:

Can an exploring child know a massive and complicated castle that well or did he through some device construct the castle? Is it possible for Bran to communicate with people through the weirwoods defying physical concepts of time and space? We know weirwoods do not see like men, they can see past present and future at all times.

Storm of Swords Chapter 43 Arya 8

For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists. Ghost of High Heart

Dance With Dragons Chapter 34 Bran 3

Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past. The Three Eyed Crow

Conclusion: Men are stuck in linear time, weirwoods are not.

Consideration 4:

Access to the weirwood trees means access to ancients magics of the 1st men and Children of the Forest:

Dance With Dragons Chapter 34 Bran 3

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, said Jojen. The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.

Consideration 5:

Bran is the only person who can talk through a weirwood. Once he slips into the trees Bran has visions of the past gazing through the Winterfell heart tree to a point that possibly predates the construction of Winterfell. Interestingly, he communicates to his father Eddard Stark.

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood.

Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below. Then all at once he was back home again. Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the gods wood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old mans gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddards lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

Winterfell, Bran whispered.

His father looked up. Whos there? he asked, turning and Bran, frightened, pulled away.

His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.

and

Father. Brans voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. Father, its me. Its

Bran. Brandon. Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I cant. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwoods? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

and

But, said Bran, he heard me.

He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.

Dance With Dragons Chapter 34 Bran 3

NEW ADDITION:

The World of Ice and Fire book explains what the language of the Children of the Forrest sounds like:

Bran the Builder was taken to a secret place to meet with them (The Children of the Forrest) but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through the leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here.

The language of the Children of the Forrest can sound like wind in the leaves, which we have heard mentioned before at the weirwoods. How Brandon learned it is a 'tale in itself'...

(why not share the tale? Because it would reveal too much about what is going on with Bran Stark now.)

The Three Eyed Crow insists people in the past cannot hear the greenseers in the trees. And that the past cannot be changed. Bran is certain his father heard him. The Three Eyed Crow denies Eddard hears a voice, but instead a whisper on the wind. But does a whisper in the wind under a leafed weirwood usually warrant a Whos there? or a long stare into the trees face? It seems as if it is more than a whisper to Eddard and possibly the reason Eddard spends so much time at the tree.

It is also possible that Bran communicates with Theon through a weirwood although Theon is half mad and there is no Bran POV chapter to confirm it:

Dance of Dragons Chapter 46 The Ghost in Winterfell

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. Theon, they seemed to whisper, Theon.

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. Please. He fell to his knees. A sword, thats all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek. Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. I was ironborn. A son a son of Pyke, of the islands.

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. Bran, the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Brans face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and

wise and sad. Brans ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon.

They were only millers sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me laughed at me they

A voice said, Who are you talking to?

Theon spun, terrified that Ramsay had found him, but it was just the washerwomenHolly, Rowan, and one whose name he did not know. The ghosts, he blurted. They whisper to me. They they know my name.

This next two passages are not examples of audible communication but they are of Bran watching relatives through trees. In both cases, non-weirwoods: the heart tree of Kings Landing and a Riverland tree watching Nymeria during one of Aryas wolf dreams.

Game of Thrones Chapter 25 - Eddard V

Syrio says a water dancer never falls. She lowered her leg to stand on two feet. Father, will Bran come and live with us now?

Not for a long time, sweet one, he told her. He needs to win his strength back.

Arya bit her lip. What will Bran do when hes of age?

Ned knelt beside her. He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live. The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Neds cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragons breath surrounded the girls where they lay. I dreamed of Bran, Sansa had whispered to him. I saw him smiling.

He was going to be a knight, Arya was saying now. A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?

No, Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the kings council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mothers Faith and become the High Septon. But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

There is the chance Bran had nothing to do with Sansa's dream. She may have dreamed of him simply because she just heard the news he was awake, or she may have dreamed of him because he used his greenseer abilities to contact, but not verbally communicate with, Sansa.

This does not add evidence to then Bran Self-Fulfilling prophecy theory but it is more evidence of possible greenseeing before meeting the three-eyed crow.

Winds of Winter - Mercy

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what shed dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

Conclusion:

The Three Eyed Crow claims that 1) People cannot hear Bran through the tree and 2) Bran cannot change the past. I will agree with 2 and disagreeing with 1. Eddard and Theon are hearing more than whispers in the wind. It is possible that Bran is above the class of greenseer and can actually speak through the trees. With the new information from A World of Ice and Fire the whispering in the trees can be the language of the Children of the Forrest and the only language than can be spoken through a weirwood. On 2, if we are dealing with a self-fulfilling prophecy then there is no changing of the past, events are going as planned.

Consideration 6:

Bran Stark is Bran the Builder reincarnated and may have existed as other Bran Starks. Bran Stark instructed his physical self, Bran the Builder, how to construct Strorms End, Winterfell and the Wall by speaking through the weirwoods faces.

Old Nan has, through old age or wisdom, come to believe that all the Brandon Starks are one person.

Game of Thrones Chapter 24 Bran 4

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

Ned tells Arya that Bran may one day build castles like Bran the Builder or sail the Sunset Sea (not mentioning that Brandon Stark the Shipwright sailed the Sunset Sea).

Game of Thrones Chapter 25 Eddard 5

No, Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the kings council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mothers Faith and become the High Septon. But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.

Consideration 7: I wonder why Bran cannot lay with a woman or hold a son. Did the fall destroy his ability to reproduce? Or does Eddard sub-consciously know of Brans fate as a greenseer through his time spent at the heart tree?

Final consideration 8:

This analysis has created far more questions than answers. I have been so busy fathoming the possibilities of seeing through the weirwoods than considering the most mysterious of the Three Eye Crows comments:

Dance With Dragons Chapter 34 Bran 3

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.

Additional Passages and Reflection

Did an intentional rustling in the wind call Jon back to find the location of the dire wolf pups to find Ghost? Ghost is mute, what did Jon hear?

Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that.

Another posted linked a reddit questions about Jon finding Ghost. Jon heard something that led him back to Ghost but Ghost is mute, so what did Jon hear?

Halfway across the bridge, Jon pulled up suddenly.

"What is it, Jon?" their lord father asked.

"Can't you hear it?"

Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else.

"There," Jon said. He swung his horse around and galloped back across the bridge. They watched him dismount where the direwolf lay dead in the snow, watched him kneel. A moment later he was riding back to them smiling.

Bran communicated with Jon during one of Jons wolf dreams in a capacity Bran does not currently possess. Bran only remembers it as a dream.

A Clash of Kings Chapter 53 Jon

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky.

Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brothers face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Dont be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks...

There is some significant stuff going on here and what I type below is an unorganized mess of thoughts and questions:

Jon is having a wolf dream through the perspective of Ghost. What is strange is that during the dream he jumps from this baby weirwood to a different location in the mountains.

Communication - Ghost is listening for the other direwolves but hears a silent shout in the sigh of blowing wind... without quotations there is a - Jon?

It seems Bran is asking if Jon is in Ghost. Warged Ghost looks for his brother but not Bran, the grey direwolf. It seems like split souls of Ghost/Jon are confusing the appearance of their brother, Jon thinking, 'my brother...' and Ghost looking for his wolf brother.

Ghost discoverers a weirwood growing before his very eyes and on it Bran's face with three eyes and happy to see him. When he wonders if Bran always had three eyes the silent shout replies without quotations: not always, not before the crow.

Ghost smells the tree and picks out: Wolf (Summer) Tree (weirwood) and Boy (Bran) and behind was warm earth, stone and death - reminding me of the cave and Brynden River's corpse infused with a weirwood. But we know that at this time in the books, Bran is hiding in the crypts while Theon hunts for him in the Wolfwood. Maybe the the earth, stone and death is just the crypts.

Ghost is threatened by the smell of death but the silent shout (Bran) tells him to not be afraid of the dark and to open his third eye. The weirwood touches Ghost's face, and poof - Jon is in full warg mode scouting Mance's host. Was it at this point Jon realizes and starts using his warg ability with control?

What I gather is: Bran is talking to Ghost/Jon in the wolf dream. Is Jon warged in Ghost and Ghost actually seeing/hearing this in real time or is it really just a dream?

It is odd the dialogue is not in quotes and is described as a silent shout. When Bran was warged in Summer sniffing at the Reed's, wolf heard the Reed's speak with quoted dialogue. If this is really happening, It is wild that a weirwood can grow from nowhere and show Bran's face.

The 'Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark." is reminiscent to the Three Eyed Crow saying to Bran, "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong." But at this point, the Three Eyed Crow has not taught Bran that so either it is Bran in the future or Bran is legit content warging and seeing from the crypts. But Bran is only warging, he does not have the ability/traning to communicate through dreams

Does 'not before the crow' mean before the crow appeared to him during the coma or before Bran arrived at the cave and became his pupil? Is it possible that the Bran communicating in the wolf dream is Bran in the future already in the cave? Or is this Bran communicating in the dream from his current location in the crypts?

or is this all just a dream and a giant coincidence? Was the new weirwood Brienne saw in Feast for Crows sprouted under a similar circumstance?

It is also a coincidence Jon felt Bran was happy to see him just as Sansa did during her dream at the heart tree in King's Landing.

[Maester Feelgood]

I know the thread's moved on a bit frim the seasonal imbalance but I have a pretty random theory stemming from the earlier conversation where the (allegedly) Qartheen story told by the qartheen trader about the birth of Dragons may in fact be related to the Planetosi seasonal imbalance. This will begin to make sense, some sense anyway, I promise. Before I get to Doreah's tale I have to provide a little context. The spoiler tag is for the WoIaF quotes.

"The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler." Ser Arlan of Pennytree, The Hedge Knight.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the long winters and summers are connected. That a single event caused the seasonal imbalance, and to magically change one season would have a reciprocal effect on the other. So either something caused long winters and in doing so long summers, or vice versa. It is also possible the Long Night is the original long winter that began the seasonal imbalance or that someone manipulated the already existing imbalance to draw out an outrageously long winter and perpetual night. No matter what precisely you adhere to, you could argue that long summers and winters, magical Fires and Ices, were caused by an influx of one or the other. For my own purposes, Ser Arlan could inadvertently have been saying that a depletion in fire magic has had a lasting effect on the winter seasons.

"

The sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail." The Jade Compendium, Votar by way of Yi Ti, WoIaF.

"The return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children-lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the river-to put aside their bickering and sing a secret song that brought back the day." Wonders Made by Man, Longstrider, WoIaF.

"Moon is god, woman wife of sun, it is known." Dothraki legend, Daenerys III, aGoT

Although the various peoples superimpose their own gods and monsters into these tales they (Yi Ti and the Rhoynar) both serve to reinforce the existence of the long night, which I consider somehow related to the long lasting seasonal imbalance. Also, as told to us by Irri and Jhiqui, the Dothraki (and people's of Yi Ti) have anthropomorphized the sun and moon as Male and Female Gods. The Dothraki then fit them accordingly into their henotheistic beliefs of the Great Stallion. In lieu of trying to concoct a bunk composite story from all the quoted tales from Essosi culture, you could manipulate these stories together to have a very Azor Ahai like legend, though I'm not saying that's the case.

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon," "He told me the moon was once an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will cracked and the dragons will return." Doreah, Daenerys III, aGoT.

What interests me most about this story is that the dragons drank the fire of the sun. What if that was not only a way to explain why dragons breathe fire but a story about darkness before dragons came (in force at least). Much like the Yi Ti people's believe that the sun was offended and went into hiding, perhaps the dragons consumed the flames of the sun means that the skies went dark prior to the existence of dragons. A primitive people may have created that legend as a result, naturally linking the two events in one explainable story of hatching a giant egg. I want to say that there is a quote saying that there were once so many dragons that they blotted out the sun but I can't think of exactly where and I may be incorrect about that.

You also have (on the Scientific vs. Magical side of the many theories) the existence of water magic could be tied into everything. There is a definitive connection between the lunar orbit and the the ocean tide in our world, if there ever were two moons in Planetos or even a comet creating the appearance of two moons, the gravitational tug-of-war between the sun, moon and earth (plus a possible comet) would be an interesting way to explain what exactly happened during "the magical event" that created the seasons. Depending on how much scientific detail GRRM intends, it could be seen as the recipie you would need to magically turn the axis of the planet.

I hope you all get a kick out of this at least, sorry that it's a bit long winded. I'm excited to see what all of you heretics think, food for thought.

[wolfmaid7]

That doesn't rule out Bran having far stronger powers than Bloodraven. In fact there's a good deal of evidence to suggest he does/will.

I don't know what happened to the quote function.

I'm not dismissing that he may, I have no doubt that should he continue to progress that will be the case.But like I said we don't know how far he will go or if by providence he is the "right" one or if he'll remain in the cave. For now two things:Bran is still learning, we haven't had enough of BR's time to gauge strength compared to what Bran is and could possibly be.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I know the thread's moved on a bit frim the seasonal imbalance but I have a pretty random theory stemming from the earlier conversation where the (allegedly) Qartheen story told by the qartheen trader about the birth of Dragons may in fact be related to the Planetosi seasonal imbalance. This will begin to make sense, some sense anyway, I promise. Before I get to Doreah's tale I have to provide a little context. The spoiler tag is for the WoIaF quotes.

"The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler." Ser Arlan of Pennytree, The Hedge Knight.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the long winters and summers are connected. That a single event caused the seasonal imbalance, and to magically change one season would have a reciprocal effect on the other. So either something caused long winters and in doing so long summers, or vice versa. It is also possible the Long Night is the original long winter that began the seasonal imbalance or that someone manipulated the already existing imbalance to draw out an outrageously long winter and perpetual night. No matter what precisely you adhere to, you could argue that long summers and winters, magical Fires and Ices, were caused by an influx of one or the other. For my own purposes, Ser Arlan could inadvertently have been saying that a depletion in fire magic has had a lasting effect on the winter seasons.

"

The sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail." The Jade Compendium, Votar by way of Yi Ti, WoIaF.

"The return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children-lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the river-to put aside their bickering and sing a secret song that brought back the day." Wonders Made by Man, Longstrider, WoIaF.

"Moon is god, woman wife of sun, it is known." Dothraki legend, Daenerys III, aGoT

Although the various peoples superimpose their own gods and monsters into these tales they (Yi Ti and the Rhoynar) both serve to reinforce the existence of the long night, which I consider somehow related to the long lasting seasonal imbalance. Also, as told to us by Irri and Jhiqui, the Dothraki (and people's of Yi Ti) have anthropomorphized the sun and moon as Male and Female Gods. The Dothraki then fit them accordingly into their henotheistic beliefs of the Great Stallion. In lieu of trying to concoct a bunk composite story from all the quoted tales from Essosi culture, you could manipulate these stories together to have a very Azor Ahai like legend, though I'm not saying that's the case.

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon," "He told me the moon was once an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will cracked and the dragons will return." Doreah, Daenerys III, aGoT.

What interests me most about this story is that the dragons drank the fire of the sun. What if that was not only a way to explain why dragons breathe fire but a story about darkness before dragons came (in force at least). Much like the Yi Ti people's believe that the sun was offended and went into hiding, perhaps the dragons consumed the flames of the sun means that the skies went dark prior to the existence of dragons. A primitive people may have created that legend as a result, naturally linking the two events in one explainable story of hatching a giant egg. I want to say that there is a quote saying that there were once so many dragons that they blotted out the sun but I can't think of exactly where and I may be incorrect about that.

You also have (on the Scientific vs. Magical side of the many theories) the existence of water magic could be tied into everything. There is a definitive connection between the lunar orbit and the the ocean tide in our world, if there ever were two moons in Planetos or even a comet creating the appearance of two moons, the gravitational tug-of-war between the sun, moon and earth (plus a possible comet) would be an interesting way to explain what exactly happened during "the magical event" that created the seasons. Depending on how much scientific detail GRRM intends, it could be seen as the recipie you would need to magically turn the axis of the planet.

I hope you all get a kick out of this at least, sorry that it's a bit long winded. I'm excited to see what all of you heretics think, food for thought.

Well, I don't think the dragon angle is to far fetched. The woiaf tells us a few named persons that carried a flaming sword during the Long Night. I am sure in a time of great darkness and cold, many would reach out for fire to battle it, using whatever magics available. Which could include dragons too. Even Mad Aerys lit wildfire around the keep to ward off a winter.

It's hard to tell which tale is true. In times like the Long Night I believe people would start pointing fingers (the Bloodstone Emperor e.g. got some blame for the darkness.) A lot of battles and wars fought to try to cut out the cause. I think this is were some of the hero tales got there spark.

'So and so fought against these folks and then things got better' events became the tales of saviours . How many are true and who or what changed the long night????

Recently, I have thoughts a long summer came first by way of Singer manipulation, then eventually a long winter came bounding over. But it's hard to put a finger on it.