Heresy 141 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Melifeather]

I'm saddened. Just when we were on a roll of agreeing with each other wolfmaid lol. Yours is a very new-age environmental sort of perspective. Mine is different, and for me, balance itself can evolve, and Man, in general, is not to blame.

Like I said, we have different views on this. Balance does indeed evolve however. The balance struck during the Jurassic was far different from the Pleistocene, for example. When a habitat is depleted, new organisms find a niche and thrive in it. When one species dies out, or several, others find a new balance.

You two are believers in an ideal that does not exist. There is not a pristine state in which all life thrives equally. There are always changes. My own perspective is that of a native, not that it should matter. But, in real life, I am a tribal linguist. I speak and teach several indigenous American Indian languages, and I can assure you, that for indigenous populations, the balance itself is ever-changing. This is even more true when we speak of seasons. Traditionally, for example, we do not hunt rabbits in the Fall, nor Deer in the Spring. Bighorn Sheep are not hunted in summer. Each season has it's own balance. Each year, each month, each day bring a whole new balance.

When Europeans settled North America and turned the wild prairies into farmland, that erased the old balance and ushered in a new one. Many new-agers like to think that such changes occurred only after 1492, but that is foolish. Change is constant. And the cultural and biological ecology of, let's say, New Hampshire, was drastically different in 1491 than it was in 1191.

I won't waste everyone's time by going into more examples, but it should suffice to say that they exist. Tribal societies did not worship nature, as your lot often believe. We celebrated the balance - whatever that balance might be. And as responsible and capable humans, we adapt to it - not force it to conform to some idyllic beauty. These are concepts that our native languages envelop quite well, and English is sorely lacking, so I think this is one reason that while new-age folks often have such good intentions, they misunderstand the actual cultures they so adore.

I actually think we are describing the same thing but using different words. As the earth changes, the living creatures that are able to adapt evolve, and in return the adaptive changes can affect earth. The reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone is an example. The elk changed their behavior and locations where they grazed, which in turn allowed trees to return to areas that were previously over-grazed, which then allowed the reintroduction of smaller animals and birds to thrive in the new woodsy areas. Your choice of words would be to say that balance evolved, and I was thinking more in terms that it was the animals themselves that evolved and in response the earth changed.

I think we're on the same page here. What I do question, and maybe I'm reading something else into your words, was when you said, "balance itself can evolve, and Man, in general, is not to blame." I was interpreting that as your belief that man is not to blame for our changing climate, which I think science has proved otherwise. It may be true that our world was already warming, but that warming would have been less noticeable over eons than the rapid warming man is causing right now. At least with the former, our species may have been able to evolve to adapt, but can we adapt at this faster pace?

[Black Crow]

Life has rather intruded to delay my arrival today, so forgive my not dealing directly with posts:

First as to the Skagosi obsidian; I very much doubt that its significant in terms of the Long Night and we do, as always, have to bear in mind that the children used it and still do use it for the ordinary business of hunting and for warfare, rather than keeping it handy as a specific for any walkers who might come knocking. As to the Skagosi trading it, that in turn implies that somebody wants it and we know that there's no real demand for it in Westeros - at the moment at any rate. I would suggest therefore that the most likely customers are in fact the children and that Skagos is the source of their obsidian. It may not be a direct trade of course, there may well be middlemen involved, but I think that's the simplest explanation - and one that doesn't preclude the possibility of the cache below the Fist originating in Skagos, although it probably passed through various hands to get there.

[Black Crow]

I did draw attention to the abortive Pact of Ice and Fire a couple of heresies ago when the World Book first came out, and although it aroused a fair degree of excitement in another place I pointed out then and still maintain that context is everything. The pact was proposed at a time when the Iron Throne was hard pressed, to buy Stark support. As such it was a matter of expediency and had nothing to do with mouldy prophecies - and it was never followed through.

[Melifeather]

Do we have to insert quotes from the book in spoiler form, or since the subject heading of the thread already states "spoilers" are we free to post without spoilers?

To comment on your post above, Black Crow, maybe the Reed Oath isn't The Pact, but rather the Pact of Ice and Fire?

[Black Crow]

No we don't need individual spoilers for quotes since the thread itself is labelled as such - with a further warning in the OP

And no, the Reeds' oath has nothing to do with the proposed marriage contract - because as I said that's all it was.

[Black Crow]

Changing the subject, we have in the past discussed how the opening of the third eye business appears to require sensory deprivation. The wolf dreams experienced by the Stark children are just that, dreams while sleeping. Bran is first visited by the Crow and receives the stabbing pain in the centre of his forehead while in a coma and the "eye" then fully opens while he is in the darkness of the crypts. Jon starts the process sleeping in the darkness of the Skirling Pass, but has yet to follow through. Similarly Arya, although I don't recall her being tapped, first skinchanged that cat while blind.

It would appear from the World Book that we are correct. In the section on Lorath mention is made of the followers of Boash, the Blind God, a Valyrian sect whose eunuch priests:

...wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay behind the world's illusions. The worshippers of Boash believed that all life was sacred and eternal; that men and women were equal; that lords and peasants, rich and poor, slave and master, man and beast were all alike, all equally worthy, all creatures of god.

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhead. Accordingly the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine"...

Supposedly the sect died out 1,000 years ago but so much of this seems very very familiar. That's not to say that the Boash'i are still, secretly, around but that once again there are elements of commonality coursing through this.

[wolfmaid7]

Life has rather intruded to delay my arrival today, so forgive my not dealing directly with posts:

First as to the Skagosi obsidian; I very much doubt that its significant in terms of the Long Night and we do, as always, have to bear in mind that the children used it and still do use it for the ordinary business of hunting and for warfare, rather than keeping it handy as a specific for any walkers who might come knocking. As to the Skagosi trading it, that in turn implies that somebody wants it and we know that there's no real demand for it in Westeros - at the moment at any rate. I would suggest therefore that the most likely customers are in fact the children and that Skagos is the source of their obsidian. It may not be a direct trade of course, there may well be middlemen involved, but I think that's the simplest explanation - and one that doesn't preclude the possibility of the cache below the Fist originating in Skagos, although it probably passed through various hands to get there.

I agree I dont think the Obsidian has anything to do with the Long night.What I was saying and this relates to the cache found by Ghost.Is that the mainstream thinking that a ranger got it from the COTF may not be correct. It could have been traded via Skagos with the COTF having nothing to do with it.

[wolfmaid7]

I actually think we are describing the same thing but using different words. As the earth changes, the living creatures that are able to adapt evolve, and in return the adaptive changes can affect earth. The reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone is an example. The elk changed their behavior and locations where they grazed, which in turn allowed trees to return to areas that were previously over-grazed, which then allowed the reintroduction of smaller animals and birds to thrive in the new woodsy areas. Your choice of words would be to say that balance evolved, and I was thinking more in terms that it was the animals themselves that evolved and in response the earth changed.

I think we're on the same page here. What I do question, and maybe I'm reading something else into your words, was when you said, "balance itself can evolve, and Man, in general, is not to blame." I was interpreting that as your belief that man is not to blame for our changing climate, which I think science has proved otherwise. It may be true that our world was already warming, but that warming would have been less noticeable over eons than the rapid warming man is causing right now. At least with the former, our species may have been able to evolve to adapt, but can we adapt at this faster pace?

Thats still not "balance evolving"what you are describing is a return to how things were with the reintroduction of a species.With its loss the balance was thrown when the species was put back Yellowstone park "return"to a balance state.

Evolution denotes advancement, progress positive adaptation.If the system had somehow created a creature to take the place of wolves yeah that would be amazing. biodiversity is said to not renewable one something that was there disappears the system suffers it does not grow.

[wolfmaid7]

Changing the subject, we have in the past discussed how the opening of the third eye business appears to require sensory deprivation. The wolf dreams experienced by the Stark children are just that, dreams while sleeping. Bran is first visited by the Crow and receives the stabbing pain in the centre of his forehead while in a coma and the "eye" then fully opens while he is in the darkness of the crypts. Jon starts the process sleeping in the darkness of the Skirling Pass, but has yet to follow through. Similarly Arya, although I don't recall her being tapped, first skinchanged that cat while blind.

It would appear from the World Book that we are correct. In the section on Lorath mention is made of the followers of Boash, the Blind God, a Valyrian sect whose eunuch priests:

...wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay behind the world's illusions. The worshippers of Boash believed that all life was sacred and eternal; that men and women were equal; that lords and peasants, rich and poor, slave and master, man and beast were all alike, all equally worthy, all creatures of god.

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhead. Accordingly the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine"...

Supposedly the sect died out 1,000 years ago but so much of this seems very very familiar. That's not to say that the Boash'i are still, secretly, around but that once again there are elements of commonality coursing through this.

Arya has started having tree dreams herself, it was in the Mercy chapter.

[Lady Barbrey]

I think that this is quite straightforward.Because Bloodraven/Kurtz is the last greenseer they've got he has been kept alive long after his time to mind the shop while they wait for his successor to tool up

[Lady Barbrey]

Hi all - was invited to check out this forum so jumping right in. My impression while reading is that he's been holding on for the final battle and he's the Last Greenseer because the world is about to end or magic is about to end.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Changing the subject, we have in the past discussed how the opening of the third eye business appears to require sensory deprivation. The wolf dreams experienced by the Stark children are just that, dreams while sleeping. Bran is first visited by the Crow and receives the stabbing pain in the centre of his forehead while in a coma and the "eye" then fully opens while he is in the darkness of the crypts. Jon starts the process sleeping in the darkness of the Skirling Pass, but has yet to follow through. Similarly Arya, although I don't recall her being tapped, first skinchanged that cat while blind.

It would appear from the World Book that we are correct. In the section on Lorath mention is made of the followers of Boash, the Blind God, a Valyrian sect whose eunuch priests:

...wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay behind the world's illusions. The worshippers of Boash believed that all life was sacred and eternal; that men and women were equal; that lords and peasants, rich and poor, slave and master, man and beast were all alike, all equally worthy, all creatures of god.

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhead. Accordingly the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine"...

Supposedly the sect died out 1,000 years ago but so much of this seems very very familiar. That's not to say that the Boash'i are still, secretly, around but that once again there are elements of commonality coursing through this.

I also noticed the seeking of the third eye as a more wide spread idea than previously thought. To take it a little further, the other peoples of Essos, including the Ibbenese, have ancient cultures that may tie into this. Some posters have mentioned these similarities with the wood walkers and the CotF. The Ibbenese have lived and and sailed the shivering sea along the northernmost shores of Essos including Lorath and even Skagos. It seems to me the Ibbenese helped spread some ideas and practices from many cultures and even races across parts of Planetos.

The Shivering Sea, Ib and even parts of the Grasslands chapters give us some nice parallels and info on some of Westeros traits. Giants and mammoths, Ice dragons breathing out cold that can freeze a person instantly etc.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Hi all - was invited to check out this forum so jumping right in. My impression while reading is that he's been holding on for the final battle and he's the Last Greenseer because the world is about to end or magic is about to end.

Welcome to Heresy. :cheers:

I also see Bloodraven holding out for as long as possible. Bran needs much more teaching/training and I believe Bloodraven will hang on as long as possible to do just that.

I think Black Crow's response is probably more in line with the actuality of the title Last Greenseer, but I also believe it may hold significance to Brans future in the story, which I previously posted.

It is possible that magic could be capped by story's end, which I wouldnt mind and even think it slightly more than possible (even though it is a little Tolkien-esque).

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Arya has started having tree dreams herself, it was in the Mercy chapter.

While I am on my soap box... I don't see it as a tree dream... because its not. She was in Nymeria's head and so I would call it a wolf dream. She did notice that the tree was watching her; which is most obviously Bran watching, and Arya through Nymeria realizing the tree is looking at her while not knowing it is Bran.

I do Wonder if Bran will reach out to Arya as he did with Jon and actually speak to her.

[Black Crow]

I also noticed the seeking of the third eye as a more wide spread idea than previously thought...

What also struck me was the abnegation of self, which sounds so much like being no-one and which may in the end also tie in with the whole notion of skinchanging and warging. Do it for long enough, taking on identity after identity can you truly claim to be who you were when you started and who you pretend to be now.

[wolfmaid7]

While I am on my soap box... I don't see it as a tree dream... because its not. She was in Nymeria's head and so I would call it a wolf dream. She did notice that the tree was watching her; which is most obviously Bran watching, and Arya through Nymeria realizing the tree is looking at her while not knowing it is Bran.

I do Wonder if Bran will reach out to Arya as he did with Jon and actually speak to her.

I'll take your word for it because I can't remember the particulars of if she was dreaming or if she was in Big Nym's head/wolf dream.

Maybe he will speak to her, do you remember the context of Big Nym's dream.Was she running for running sake or was she running from the Weirwood? It may symbolic for if she's called or not.

[Lady Barbrey]

I don't think its ill-fated, it just seems the most straightforward interpretation of GRRM's statement that the dodgy seasons have a magical cause - especially if that is in turn linked to poking about in the fires down below.

If we assume that the seasons were once regular and now they're not, and GRRM has said their irregularity is a result of magic, then something magically interfered with the seasons. This is the supernatural acting on natural laws. So what happened?

While there are legends regarding a second moon spilling out dragons when it exploded - and that could well have some bearing - the only big purposeful magic that happened in the past that is referred to as having some science to back it up because of rising sea levels and drowned cities throughout the world, not just in Westeros, is that the Children magically, with great bloody sacrifices, caused earthquakes and seas coming in etc in order to flood the Arm of Dorne and prevent any more incursions of First Men into Westeros.

Rising sea levels are directly connected to melting polar ice caps.

The history speculates this happened 8-12 thousand years ago. The Long Night - the first real indication of irregular seasons as we don't know if they were regular before - is speculated to have happened 6, or 8 thousand years ago.

In fact, the Long Night and the succeeding variations in seasons could have begun in response to the Children magically messing with the geothermals of the world.

The Long Night was in fact a magical response from the Others to the warming of their habitat and the loss of cold/darkness to sustain it. They actually spread cold. The Children's changes wrought major imbalance not just physically but magically, and the magical fire and ice elements of the world begin an irregular/erratic cycle and antithetical battle to keep the world from freezing or frying. When one element gets too powerful, as personified by the Others as ice and the Dragons as fire, the other tries to correct the imbalance, probably not actually knowing they are engaged in this battle for balance. Either the Children or the World itself seem to slowly be losing a game to keep the seasons magically in check.

What this means is that the Long Night was actually necessary to save the world or it would have continued to melt, dry and then fry if left on its path. But it went on too long, and that's when the Wall had to be built to contain the Others, and Lightbringers - possibly dragons - began to slowly counteract the overkill cold. What looks likely from this is that either the cold or the heat would likely just increase in a positive feedback loop unless it was magically interfered with.

Melisandre seems to understand some of this - if we think of religions as ways for humans to explain the world around them then a fire god locked in battle with an Other ice god is a good metaphor. What she doesn't understand is that while the battles must always be fought to keep even an irregular climate balance in the world, it is imperative that neither side actually win the magical war. Death to the world would follow.

We know that some human lines carry within them magical genetic affinities to ice or fire magic, both seeming to need blood magic to enhance or instigate them. Only some of these people carry the gene. Two lines we definitely know about seem to practice incest to concentrate it and ensure the gene is carried by most of their offspring. Targaryans and the Craster's. But we also see certain houses in World that probably have more chances of carrying on certain magical affinity genes even if not closely incestuous. It did not escape my notice in World that the Starks married a lot of cousins. If they had a magical affinity gene like the Casters for changing into Others, perhaps introduced by someone like the Nights King, then quite a number of Starks might be carrying this gene.

Which leaves us with Jon, who likely has inherited both affinities - fire and ice - from his Stark mother and Targaryan father. He also seems to have earth magic as evidenced in his war going abilities. That's a lot of magical affinity

I don't think it's an accident that Bran, with the Stark affinity for ice, and Bloodraven with the Targ affinity for fire, both of them with earth affinities, are going to be playing a huge role with the Children to channel magic through Jon to right the balance of the seasons and correct the mistake the Children made so long ago. Either way Ragnarok comes in a final battle between fire and ice - and that might be necessary for the amount of blood sacrifice - the right kind of blood sacrifice - that might be necessary. The question is whether that will destroy the world or whether the Children through Jon can balance these two antitheticals to restore balance to the climate and put it back on track so that the world continues.

That's my speculation! Thanks for inviting me over to share it Blood Crow. I have so enjoyed reading this heresy thread and look forward to reading the back threads. You guys on here are awesome!

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'll take your word for it because I can't remember the particulars of if she was dreaming or if she was in Big Nym's head/wolf dream.

Maybe he will speak to her, do you remember the context of Big Nym's dream.Was she running for running sake or was she running from the Weirwood? It may symbolic for if she's called or not.

I reread the sample chapter recently, but I pulled the text here instead of paraphrasing it.

She woke with a gasp, not knowing who she was, or where.

The smell of blood was heavy in her nostrils or was that her nightmare, lingering? She had dreamed of wolves again, of running through some dark pine forest with a great pack at her hells, hard on the scent of prey[...]

Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what shed dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

It is more of her wolf dreams, and I think it is leading up to communication through the warg bond, similar to Jon and Bran's previous. Looking at it again it almost seems her name may have been called in dream, but the last sentence of the quote says something different.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, definitely a wolf dream but it feels as though she's going to get that tap on the forehead pretty soon.

[King Tyrion XX]

Hmmm. Did Jon notice a tree watching him before getting his forehead tapped?