Is Cersei trans?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

You said no textual evidence was needed for the assertion. Speculation into things like this is fine, but you basically said it was made up.

Sorry I'm confused? I say that there is a possibility of this, even though the text doesn't support it (and I gave my reasons why), and now I'm writing fanfic? Tee hee.

[INCBlackbird]

Sorry I'm confused? I say that there is a possibility of this, even though the text doesn't support it (and I gave my reasons why), and now I'm writing fanfic? Tee hee.

if there is no textual evidence there is nothing to discuss and the only reason people say there is, is because they WANT Theon to be "queer" either for fanfiction reasons (which I have no problem with as long as they admit it's not canon) or because (in case they are an sjw) they want him to belong to a minority group so they can safely like him (because straight white cis men are the devil). the point is, they want to CHANGE the character to make him fit their needs. I find this offensive towards the character tbh, if you don't like him as he is, why even bother talking about them. if you can't like them as they are, come up with your own character and you can make them have any sexuality, skincolor, disability, gender...

[LordStoneheart]

Sorry I'm confused? I say that there is a possibility of this, even though the text doesn't support it (and I gave my reasons why), and now I'm writing fanfic? Tee hee.

Yes. No question mark or tee hee needed.

Also, what INC said

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Yes. No question mark or tee hee needed.

Also, what INC said

"Alas Theon lamented, gone were the days when he would stand by Robbs side and watch his auburn hair flutter like the autumn leaves."

Yeah I don't wrote fanfic.

if there is no textual evidence there is nothing to discuss and the only reason people say there is, is because they WANT Theon to be "queer" either for fanfiction reasons (which I have no problem with as long as they admit it's not canon) or because (in case they are an sjw) they want him to belong to a minority group so they can safely like him (because straight white cis men are the devil). the point is, they want to CHANGE the character to make him fit their needs. I find this offensive towards the character tbh, if you don't like him as he is, why even bother talking about them. if you can't like them as they are, come up with your own character and you can make them have any sexuality, skincolor, disability, gender...

Well as long as they admit their view of him isn't what is being presented canonically, then its not hurting anyone.

Offensive towards a character..... I'm not sure how that is achieved.

I really don't think people reimagining a character to represent a minority is a big deal.

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

This theory does not really fit the timeline of Cersei and Jaime's relationship.

Their experimenting began when they were very young, before their mother died. Remember, she discovered them and took steps to stop it. Back then, Tywin was serving as Hand in KL, so he would have rarely seen his children. Even so, everyone admits that he was infatuated with his wife, and even stopped similing when she died. So he didn't have trouble getting it up for a woman his own age, as you say. Even if he did try anything sexual towards Cersei, that was more likely to have occurred in her teen years, when she started resembling her mother a lot. But even if it did happen, Cersei and Jaime started experimenting long before that. Also, this theory would not explain why Jaime reciprocated Cersei's feelings.

I think the Jaime-Cersei thing, although hard to explain, essentially boils down to them being very close, and feeling like they belong together/complete each other, as well as a touch of arrogance (them feeling that they are above other people, hence can do whatever they please, and that no other partner could ever be good enough for them).

You're probably right, especially now that you mention the timeline--I just realized Tywin was only around Cercei at Casterly Rock for a few months after Tytos' funeral. Cercei would have been about two years old by the time Tywin and Aerys left. Unless either Aerys or Tywin molested a toddler (in the months after a funeral!), it isn't too likely that either of them started Cercei on her path. It's barely possible that Aerys tried something with Cercei to spite Tywin or Joanna, and even less likely that Tywin was sick enough to molest a his own two year old daughter while Aerys harassed his wife (perhaps Joanna had to placate the King because of threats and Tywin felt unmanned? Tywin could be ashamed even with a woman he truly loved. Possible but barely, I admit).

So, maybe the Maester at Casterly Rock? Jamie's quote about the maester trying to touch him is show-only, so I can't really count that as support either.

If something happened, it can't have been after Joanna's death, given this reminiscence from Jaime that you paraphrased:

He could never bear to be long apart from his twin. Even as children, they would creep into each other’s beds and sleep with their arms entwined. Even in the womb. Long before his sister’s flowering or the advent of his own manhood, they had seen mares and stallions in the fields and dogs and bitches in the kennels and played at doing the same. Once their maid had caught them at it…he did not recall just what they had been doing, but whatever it was had horrified Lady Joanna. She’d sent the maid away, moved Jaime’s bedchamber to the other side of Casterly Rock, set a guard outside Cersei’s, and told them they must never do that again or she would have no choice but to tell their lor father. They need not have feared, though. It was not long after that she died birthing Tyrion. —Jaime,

So it's conceivable that Aerys tried something at the tournament where he insulted Joanna and rejected Tywin's resignation--which would have been about 9 months before Joanna's death. Cercei would have been 6, and whatever their mother had caught them at would have happened shortly after. Again, barely possible, and not enough textual support. And the twins still played at things they didn't understand before that.

I'm starting to think all the explanations for the Lannister Twincest are supposed to be nothing more than possibilities that will never by confirmed.

Explaning why Cercei and Jamie were in love would almost be like explaining Hamelet's melancholy or Iago's hatred for Othello. Critics find multiple explanations, none of them exhaustive; actors can play Iago as being sociopath, a rejected lover of Othello, a man desperately trying to transcend his own self-hatred by taking down the happy people around him--and all of it works. If any one explanation became definitive, the text would be less rich. The same goes for the forces that shaped certain characters in ASOIF.

I used to be partial to the A + J = C + T theory before the timeline in WOIAF nixed it. I thought "dragon blood" instinctively sought itself to keep the dragon bond alive--and given all the scaled stillbirths with tails that result from Targaryan marriages with other houses, I think the dragon blood makes a valerian house almost (but not quite) a species unto itself. Valyrian families practice incest because their blood doesn't mix well with other human beings.

Since brother-sister marriages are anathema in Westeros (though apparently 1st cousin marriages are tolerated by the 7), it's safe to assume non-Targaryans feel the same aversion to incest that we do IRL.

The twin's lack of dragon blood makes their attraction something of a mystery, and the hints we get about why they are in love are probably supposed to stay suspended in an undetermined state. We get a box full of Shroedinger's twincest motives, and it's going to stay closed.

Well, at least most of us can agree that Cercei isn't trans.

[Stark Vader]

My pet theory is that Cersei is such a narcissist she starts experimenting with the one person who looks just like her and she can trust completely. She's paranoid about people taking things from her, her twin wouldn't. Early experimentation turned into unhealthy relationship once their mother died and Tywin didn't understand what was going on to seperate them.

I always got the impression Cerseis love was more one sided and just about her and what she could use her pussy pass to get her in life. She immediately starts moving onto other men once Jamie disappears because sets got a high sex drive. She projects onto Jamie what she'd do if she was him. Cersei only loves Joffrey because hes like her. I kind of get the feeling Cersei likes fucking herself, figuratively Jamie is just an extension of herself.

[INCBlackbird]

Well as long as they admit their view of him isn't what is being presented canonically, then its not hurting anyone.

Offensive towards a character..... I'm not sure how that is achieved.

I really don't think people reimagining a character to represent a minority is a big deal.

true, the problem is that they claim that it is canon and say that people who don't agree are homophobic.

[Taenqyrhae]

true, the problem is that they claim that it is canon and say that people who don't agree are homophobic.

Who said that???

[Taenqyrhae]

if there is no textual evidence there is nothing to discuss and the only reason people say there is, is because they WANT Theon to be "queer" either for fanfiction reasons (which I have no problem with as long as they admit it's not canon) or because (in case they are an sjw) they want him to belong to a minority group so they can safely like him (because straight white cis men are the devil). the point is, they want to CHANGE the character to make him fit their needs. I find this offensive towards the character tbh, if you don't like him as he is, why even bother talking about them. if you can't like them as they are, come up with your own character and you can make them have any sexuality, skincolor, disability, gender...

I don't write fanfiction, and I don't want him to be a minority so I can like him more or feel OK about liking his character. I think that Theon might be gay or bisexual simply because his character reminds me very much of many gay guys I've known who grew up in an environment where they were taught that being gay was wrong. It seems like you are trying to cast aspersions on people who speculate about Theon's sexuality because you can't accept he comes across as possibly gay to some people, you believe everybody must have ulterior motives for speculating that way.

[Minstral]

Who said that???

Apparently you did ten minutes after this.

I don't write fanfiction, and I don't want him to be a minority so I can like him more or feel OK about liking his character. I think that Theon might be gay or bisexual simply because his character reminds me very much of many gay guys I've known who grew up in an environment where they were taught that being gay was wrong. It seems like you are trying to cast aspersions on people who speculate about Theon's sexuality because you can't accept he comes across as possibly gay to some people, you believe everybody must have ulterior motives for speculating that way.

[Taenqyrhae]

Apparently you did ten minutes after this.

I neither said that Theon being gay was canon or accuse anyone of being homphobic for disagreeing. Did you quote the wrong post??? :)

[INCBlackbird]

I don't write fanfiction, and I don't want him to be a minority so I can like him more or feel OK about liking his character. I think that Theon might be gay or bisexual simply because his character reminds me very much of many gay guys I've known who grew up in an environment where they were taught that being gay was wrong. It seems like you are trying to cast aspersions on people who speculate about Theon's sexuality because you can't accept he comes across as possibly gay to some people, you believe everybody must have ulterior motives for speculating that way.

but you didn't read the thoughts of those people Theon reminds you off. the point is that if Theon were at all gay or bisexual he would at least be aware of it! as it is, he's not, he's in denial about a lot of things, one of them being the fact that he has some aspects that are considered feminine (I guess this is why you think he could be gay? in fact, the social justice warriors I have had this argument with both gave this as a reason for him being bi or gay. which I find increadably offensive cause they're acting on a stereotype that is hurtfull and they always claim to be fighting against stereotypes. lots of guys can have feminine sides without being gay, it's called metrosexuality) but he's never in denial about his sexuality. I don't think people "must have" ulterior motives, I just think they do. because everyone who's said it so far was either blinded by their obsession with shipping Theon with Robb, or a social justice warrior.

[Taenqyrhae]

but you didn't read the thoughts of those people Theon reminds you off. the point is that if Theon were at all gay or bisexual he would at least be aware of it! as it is, he's not, he's in denial about a lot of things, one of them being the fact that he has some aspects that are considered feminine (I guess this is why you think he could be gay? in fact, the social justice warriors I have had this argument with both gave this as a reason for him being bi or gay. which I find increadably offensive cause they're acting on a stereotype that is hurtfull and they always claim to be fighting against stereotypes. lots of guys can have feminine sides without being gay, it's called metrosexuality) but he's never in denial about his sexuality. I don't think people "must have" ulterior motives, I just think they do. because everyone who's said it so far was either blinded by their obsession with shipping Theon with Robb, or a social justice warrior.

So, you are speculating about the thoughts of other posters and assigning motives for their speculation about Theon because….?

Let's take another, less extreme example of speculation about a character's sexuality. There is nowhere in the text that Jon Connington thinks "I'm a gay man". There is no scene that depicts him having sex with a man. Yet most poster's are of the opinion that he is gay or bisexual, based on clues and implications from his memories of Rhaegar. We are not 100% certain that Jon is gay, or at least I am not, but it seems pretty obvious, and that's from only a handful of chapters. Likewise with Renly and Loras - the text never describes any interactions between the two that are significantly different from Theon's interactions with Robb.

With Theon, if he does have repressed aspects of his sexuality, it is more subtle, AS IT WOULD BE, as he doesn't spend too much time thinking about the men he may have had romantic feelings for. We do have a lot more Theon chapters than Jon chapters to work with, though, so any clues, if they are clues, could be much more subtle.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

JonCon is gay because GRRM said so (in a SSM).

Also, it's not only what he thought about Rhaegar, but how he thinks about him. I'm sure Arthur would also remember him fondly, but he wouldn't call him "my silver prince", nor "Oh, how I tried to impress him!". He also had some sort of "romantic" memories about Toyne.

[jon stark I]

Cersei isn't a transgender, she is someone who can't see herself thats all.She wants to be a man because of many things and for a while I thought she was a transgender till her scene with Taena.Cersei wants to be a man because she despises women.

[LordStoneheart]

"Alas Theon lamented, gone were the days when he would stand by Robbs side and watch his auburn hair flutter like the autumn leaves."

Yeah I don't wrote fanfic.

You consider that evidence?

[INCBlackbird]

So, you are speculating about the thoughts of other posters and assigning motives for their speculation about Theon because….?

Let's take another, less extreme example of speculation about a character's sexuality. There is nowhere in the text that Jon Connington thinks "I'm a gay man". There is no scene that depicts him having sex with a man. Yet most poster's are of the opinion that he is gay or bisexual, based on clues and implications from his memories of Rhaegar. We are not 100% certain that Jon is gay, or at least I am not, but it seems pretty obvious, and that's from only a handful of chapters. Likewise with Renly and Loras - the text never describes any interactions between the two that are significantly different from Theon's interactions with Robb.

With Theon, if he does have repressed aspects of his sexuality, it is more subtle, AS IT WOULD BE, as he doesn't spend too much time thinking about the men he may have had romantic feelings for. We do have a lot more Theon chapters than Jon chapters to work with, though, so any clues, if they are clues, could be much more subtle.

well if someone so desparately wants to see something that's not there we can only speculate about what the motives could be right?

Jon con doesn't' need to say "I am gay" for us to know it is, we can read his thoughts and it's pretty clear, like jon con's red beard said! I don't remember much about Loras and Renly, probably because I don't care about these characters but since the show made them canon I am going to assume that it was clear enough.

yes, they would be sublte, but the point is that they are not There; I am into this fandom specifically for Theon, I have discussed him pretty much daily for the past two years and I have read his chapters probably over a hudred times by now, with the intension of analysing them, I am rereading them again at the moment because I''ve started a reread project (first chapter is up) and I have found no hints and when I asked all those people on tumblr who I have argued with about this to provide me with ANYTHING AT ALL, they couldn't give me anything better then: he has feminine aspects and he dreams about Robb (completely ignoring the context of those dreams and the fact that they were not sexual whatsoever, very far from). so I ask you, can you show me some of those subtle hints you're talking about? if you want to discuss this further, though (which i'm totally up for) I guess I should make a thread about this? cause well we've been off topic here for a while.

[Taenqyrhae]

well if someone so desparately wants to see something that's not there we can only speculate about what the motives could be right?

Jon con doesn't' need to say "I am gay" for us to know it is, we can read his thoughts and it's pretty clear, like jon con's red beard said! I don't remember much about Loras and Renly, probably because I don't care about these characters but since the show made them canon I am going to assume that it was clear enough.

yes, they would be sublte, but the point is that they are not There; I am into this fandom specifically for Theon, I have discussed him pretty much daily for the past two years and I have read his chapters probably over a hudred times by now, with the intension of analysing them, I am rereading them again at the moment because I''ve started a reread project (first chapter is up) and I have found no hints and when I asked all those people on tumblr who I have argued with about this to provide me with ANYTHING AT ALL, they couldn't give me anything better then: he has feminine aspects and he dreams about Robb (completely ignoring the context of those dreams and the fact that they were not sexual whatsoever, very far from). so I ask you, can you show me some of those subtle hints you're talking about? if you want to discuss this further, though (which i'm totally up for) I guess I should make a thread about this? cause well we've been off topic here for a while.

Why bother? Any text that I quote that I take as a possible hint that Theon may be repressing a portion of his sexuality will not convince someone who is so devoted to their own internal image of what their favorite character is. I have never argued that there are clear textual clues that Theon is gay, only that, as I got to know the character over the course of five books, he reminded me a lot of people I knew who eventually came out as gay. That doesn't mean it's certain or necessarily that he is gay, just that he seems like someone who is repressing a portion of his sexuality, who has strong emotional ties and dreams about other young male characters, and who has issues with relating to women. He could be repressing some other form of sexuality that would be looked down upon.

I don't get the whole "Theon has feminine traits" though. I don't see anything feminine about him at all, and I like that GRRM does not portray gay characters as effeminate.

[LordStoneheart]

Why bother? Any text that I quote that I take as a possible hint that Theon may be repressing a portion of his sexuality will not convince someone who is so devoted to their own internal image of what their favorite character is. I have never argued that there are clear textual clues that Theon is gay, only that, as I got to know the character over the course of five books, he reminded me a lot of people I knew who eventually came out as gay. That doesn't mean it's certain or necessarily that he is gay, just that he seems like someone who is repressing a portion of his sexuality, who has strong emotional ties and dreams about other young male characters, and who has issues with relating to women. He could be repressing some other form of sexuality that would be looked down upon.

The thing about that is, these traits and things will probably have a much better explanation that fits within the characterization we are actually given of Theon.

[Guess who's back]

lol. There is no such thing as trans.. At least not where I'm from.