Is it implausible to believe that the Others built the Wall?

[Lykos]

^Or implacable and stark!

[Mithras]

and, yea, sure, I understand about the WB. Apparently, the parameter you're advocating is that anything that suggests the ancient Starks are anything less than pristine is "unreliable." Makes perfect sense.

My take is that the LH aka BtB was granted CotF magic (skinchanging) to defeat the Others and after the Long Night, people started to abuse this newly gained magical powers. Before the Pact, which happened thousands of years before the LN, we know that the First Men and the CotF were involved in a bloody war. At that time, there might not be a name called Stark. Besides, we have to believe either the Starks were descended from Brandon the Bloody Blade or the following comment of Yandel:

That Garth Greenhand had many children cannot be denied, given how many in the Reach claim descent from him. But that all other lordly houses of Westeros were similarly descended seems most unlikely.

I prefer the latter.

[Mithras]

There is no denying that the ancient Starks were harsh men.

The popular heretic idea is that the CotF are the bad guys but when the Starks fight them, do they turn out to be good guys and the Starks go evil?

And the Starks didnot only fight the wargs and CotF but also necromancers too.

[BearQueen87]

I think the problem is that we keep using "evil/bad and good" and there is just no damn thing in this series. We're trying to impose those terms on the text and we sorta need not to.

I don't think the Starks were ever "evil" (even if they the Kings of Winter and the Others come from them or something else GRRM-ish) no more than I think any other family or person is some sort of personification of goodness and light.

Humans, Others, and COTF are more complex than good and evil.

Embrace the gray!

[Mithras]

Embrace the gray!

The only gray I would embrace would be Jon's eyes :smug:

Humans, Others, and COTF are more complex than good and evil.

Then what butterbumps said is not accurate because apparently she assumes that the CotF are good guys AND since the Starks are descended from a guy who slew them AND later they slew more CotF/wargs themselves, they should be the bad guys AND since I, along with Yandel, found it very unlikely that the Starks were descended from that bloody Brandon, I must have a mentality that anything that depicts the Starks less than pristine is unreliable.

Meanwhile, it never occurs to her that MAYBE all of those CotF/wargs had it coming.

[butterbumps!]

There is no denying that the ancient Starks were harsh men.

The popular heretic idea is that the CotF are the bad guys but when the Starks fight them, do they turn out to be good guys and the Starks go evil?

And the Starks didnot only fight the wargs and CotF but also necromancers too.

lol, i see, i see. what necromancers did they fight exactly? if this is about the Barrow Kings, it's not confirmed that they actually practiced necromancy.

Anyway, despite how we have accounts of how the KoW were ludicrously ruthless, god forbid anyone suggests they might have been on an unjustified side at one point. It's kind of funny, tbh.

In particular, I think it's kind of sweet that you call the Starks of old "harsh men," but insist that their harshness was always for a good cause. For example, one such case of "Stark harshness" is how Brandon Ice Eyes caught a bunch of slavers and let the slaves rip out their entrails and hang them on weirwood trees over in the Wolfs Den.

But of course when a Targ crucifies a bunch of slavers, we should all clutch our pearls over the sheer depravity and call said Targ far worse than "harsh" for it.

Then what butterbumps said is not accurate because apparently she assumes that the CotF are good guys AND since the Starks are descended from a guy who slew them AND later they slew more CotF/wargs themselves, they should be the bad guys AND since I, along with Yandel, found it very unlikely that the Starks were descended from that bloody Brandon, I must have a mentality that anything that depicts the Starks less than pristine is unreliable.

Meanwhile, it never occurs to her that MAYBE all of those CotF/wargs had it coming.

wtf?

where are you getting this from?

[BearQueen87]

The only gray I would embrace would be Jon's eyes :smug:

Admit it. You have a shrine set up to Saint Jon Snow, don't you?

[Lykos]

Mithras Stoneborn, I don't think that categories like good and evil can be generally administered to any characters and even less groups in Martin's works. He wants us to question these generalisations.

There are good acts, appropriate acts and the opposite and at what time which is which fluctuates. Very often something that's right for one faction is inacceptable for another.

An important question is wether there is a way to find a path that everyone can live with? Or is that impossible, should we even try - wouldn't it be incredibly boring to follow this path?

Take the Children of the Forrest for example, their greenseers seem to be the authority they follow as a result they lived in harmony with nature - but at what cost? Is that a viable solution for humans?

The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them.

Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Compare this to "The Dying of the Light", which was inspired by "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night", or Meera's complaint of Jojen simply accepting the future foretold in his greendreams.

“He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie.”

When man tasted the forbidden fruit of knowledge, he / she could tell apart good from evil, thus he / she became responsible for his / her actions, also he was expelled from the garden so he could't eat from the fruit of life for that would make man equal to god.

[butterbumps!]

snip

I think the real issue here is that all notions of morality, justice and honor are defined by the Starks. Whatever they do is right at any given time (even when it's totally not) by virtue of their name being Stark, and anyone who comes into conflict with a Stark is automatically in the wrong, because reasons.

[Mithras]

Admit it. You have a shrine set up to Saint Jon Snow, don't you?

Sorry can't tell you more. Only males are allowed in our secret order ;)

[Mithras]

come on. Do you realize that the eagle could be a couple of miles away from the action and still see? Don't you recall that Qhorin's band are found by Orell's eagle when it's miles away and realize that they've been made? Eagles have a pretty profound sense of sight (hence the expression "eagle-eyed"), which Martin has played with.

So, no, we should absolutely not assume that the eagle literally crossed the Wall in order to see action at CB.

"And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”

“So we know,” said Mance. “We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know.”

Seems like the eagle had to pass South to see these for me.

[butterbumps!]

"And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”

“So we know,” said Mance. “We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know.”

Seems like the eagle had to pass South to see these for me.

no, it really doesn't. and, as I said several posts upthread, skinchanging a bird flying OVER the Wall is NOT the same as skinchanging THROUGH it.

As in, does the magic of the Wall extend up into the air rights? Because somehow, I kind of doubt that there's a force field that extends up to infinity from the Wall.

I'm really not sure what you think you're proving with this. Seriously, we have prevention between Jon and Ghost, and then Jon and Summer (/ Ghost and Summer) from north to south. Meanwhile, we have wights waking up south of the Wall and attacking. What do you think discussion of the eagle in relation to the Wall's air rights proves?

[Lykos]

bumps!, I have the idea that Stark might have been the name for an office before it became the family name, like Magnar.

Each of the "Hundred Kingdoms" had a Stark that was supposed to negotiate between the Others and men when winters became dire, maybe they were the King's of Winter or they were another important factor - a brother to the King of Winter - that could controll the dead created by the fighting amongst men for the scarce ressources when the King of Winter failed - The White Walkers! As a safety precaution each of the kingdoms was given an obsidian dagger - the gift of a hundred dragonglass daggers.

ETA: Another bit by Martin to support the thoughts in my previous post "And Seven Times Never Kill Man".

“

But you had other gods once, before you came to worship the pyramids,” neKrol objected. “The very ones your carvers did for me.” He had even gone so far as to unpack a crate and show her, though surely she remembered, since the people of the pyramid in the ring-of-stone had been among the finest craftsmen.

Yet the bitter speaker only smoothed her fur, and shook her head. “I was too young to be a carver, so perhaps I was not told,” she said. “We all know that which we need to know, but only the carvers need to do these things, so perhaps only they know the stories of these old gods.”

Another time he had asked her about the pyramids, and had gotten even less. “Build them?” she had said. “We did not build them, Arik. They have always been, like the rocks and the trees.” But then she blinked. “But they are not like the rocks and the trees, are they?” And, puzzled, she went away to talk to the others.

But if the godless Jaenshi were more thoughtful than their brothers in the clans, they were also more difficult, and each day neKrol realized more and more the futility of their enterprise. He had eight of the exiles with him now—they had found two more, half dead from starvation, in the height of winter—and they all took turns training with the two lasers and spying on the Angels. But even should Ryther return with the weaponry, their force was a joke against the might the Proctor could put in the field. The Lights of Jolostar would be carrying a full arms shipment in the expectation that every clan for a hundred kilometers would now be roused and angry, ready to resist the Steel Angels and overwhelm them by sheer force of numbers; Jannis would be blank-faced when only neKrol and his ragged band appeared to greet her.

If in fact they did. Even that was problematical; he was having much difficulty keeping his guerrillas together. Their hatred of the Steel Angels still bordered on madness, but they were far from a cohesive unit. None of them liked to take orders very well, and they fought constantly, going at each other with bared claws in struggles for social dominance. If neKrol had not warned them, he suspected they might even duel with the lasers. As for staying in good fighting shape, that too was a joke. Of the three females in the band, the bitter speaker was the only one who had not allowed herself to be impregnated. Since the Jaenshi usually gave birth in litters of four to eight, neKrol calculated that late summer would present them with an exile population explosion. And there would be more after that, he knew; the godless seemed to copulate almost hourly, and there was no such thing as Jaenshi birth control. He wondered how the clans kept their population so stable, but his charges didn’t know that either.

“I suppose we sexed less,” the bitter speaker said when he asked her, “but I was a child, so I would not really know. Before I came here, there was never the urge. I was just young, I would think.”

[Mithras]

no, it really doesn't. and, as I said several posts upthread, skinchanging a bird flying OVER the Wall is NOT the same as skinchanging THROUGH it.

As in, does the magic of the Wall extend up into the air rights? Because somehow, I kind of doubt that there's a force field that extends up to infinity from the Wall.

I'm really not sure what you think you're proving with this. Seriously, we have prevention between Jon and Ghost, and then Jon and Summer (/ Ghost and Summer) from north to south. Meanwhile, we have wights waking up south of the Wall and attacking. What do you think discussion of the eagle in relation to the Wall's air rights proves?

Those wights had blue eyes in the North. They were active but not moving. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Wall blocks skinchanging. Ghost and Jon is a very special case. Ghost sometimes acts very weirdly, unlike any other direwolves, as if there is a silent being present inside him. We see this when he led Jon to the obsidian cache and later when Jon went to speak with Stannis and told Ghost to stay but he refused and disappeared suspiciously, which makes me think that he went somewhere so that he could easily earsdrop the conversation. The emergence of Ghost and Mormont's Raven happened simultaneously, just before Jon was elected the LC.

Speaking of which, it is very likely that Bloodraven is in Mormont's Raven and he does that through the Wall. And later, Bran/BR will wear the skins of those ravens in the Wolfswood.

Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above

the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

Ghost is South and Summer is North.

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back... all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

This time, Ghost is North and Summer is South.

Lady’s dead and maybe Grey Wind too, but somewhere there’s still Shaggydog and Nymeria and Ghost.

Summer is in the North but he can sense all the remaining direwolves.

[Lykos]

It's been speculated in the heresy threads (and I tend to agree) that Bran (and Summer) has indeed maintained a connection with the land south of the Wall, since he was "iniciated" by the weirwoodgate at the Nightfort (the salty tear that touched his head as he passed).

[butterbumps!]

Those wights had blue eyes in the North. They were active but not moving. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Wall blocks skinchanging. Ghost and Jon is a very special case. Ghost sometimes acts very weirdly, unlike any other direwolves, as if there is a silent being present inside him. We see this when he led Jon to the obsidian cache and later when Jon went to speak with Stannis and told Ghost to stay but he refused and disappeared suspiciously, which makes me think that he went somewhere so that he could easily earsdrop the conversation. The emergence of Ghost and Mormont's Raven happened simultaneously, just before Jon was elected the LC.

I'm really starting to lose patience with your continued all-or-nothing outlook, and the way you make these faulty declarative statements like the bolded.

Yea, as per the bolded, yes, there is suggestion that the Wall blocks skinchanging. There is more to suggest that the Wall blocks CotF powers than there is to suggest that some other party is living in Ghost and creating interference as the reason behind why Jon can't communicate with the wolf for like 10 chapters of aSoS like you seem to believe for some reason.

It's been speculated in the heresy threads (and I tend to agree) that Bran (and Summer) has indeed maintained a connection with the land south of the Wall, since he was "iniciated" by the weirwoodgate at the Nightfort (the salty tear that touched his head as he passed).

I think it works if you're at a weirwood directly. That seems to be the workaround. Like, the Wall blocks the "wireless" connection, but the weirwood is the "wired ethernet" connection that actually allows communication north and south. That seems to be the pattern. And explains why a greenseer-- plugged into a weirwood-- can negotiate around the Wall.

[Mithras]

Or the Wall simply does not block skinchanging and the reason why Jon could not sense Ghost (apart from Ghost's suspicious actions) might be that Jon is an untrained warg and unlike Bran or Arya, he has been fighting his gift instead of embracing it.

[butterbumps!]

Or the Wall simply does not block skinchanging and the reason why Jon could not sense Ghost (apart from Ghost's suspicious actions) might be that Jon is an untrained warg and unlike Bran or Arya, he has been fighting his gift instead of embracing it.

so the very apparent times he actually does warg-- when he and Ghost just happen to be on the same side of the Wall-- should be ignored, right? Like, how he wargs prior to being split from Ghost in aCoK up by the Milkwater (when they're both on the north side), and then again in DwD once they reunite to the South. These times don't count?

I don't get it. what's your investment in having it be that the CotF helped build the Wall to stop the Others?

How did that party line ever make sense, seriously? We know there are these creatures that wield ice magically, and we have this enormous architectural wonder comprised of magical ice. And interestingly enough, this ice Wall doesn't stop two wights from animating at Night. But does prevent Jon from sensing Ghost and Summer. hmm.

And looking just a little closer at this, we have the Starks wielding an ancestral blade called "Ice," Bran the Builder is said to have built this ice Wall, the Starks are known as the Kings of WINTER, bad stuff happens when you remove the iron from their tombs, the Others are said to hate fire and iron, the ancient Starks are batshit ruthless (one might say a little Boltonesque), the Starks have a thorough history of beating the hell out of wargs and CotF (which should tell you that they likely did not always worship the old gods) and a goddam snowstorm is currently pouring out of Winterfell.

[Mithras]

so the very apparent times he actually does warg-- when he and Ghost just happen to be on the same side of the Wall-- should be ignored, right? Like, how he wargs prior to being split from Ghost in aCoK up by the Milkwater (when they're both on the north side), and then again in DwD once they reunite to the South. These times don't count?

That happened only after future Bran opened his third eye.

[Lykos]

Well, if we look at conflicts there are several ways to solve them .

• Compromise
  
• Fight to one side's annihilation
  
• Segregation
  

It would make sense to me that there have been different factions, who favor different solutions, amongst both sides.

I don't really think that the Others are a side in the conflict that led to the building of the Wall, that doesn't mean they didn't play a part in building it.

In my view the Wall represents the border of civilisation, just like the roman limes or the great stone dragon (the chinese wall), it's power lies in uniting the people of the inside against those on the outside (the Wall's magic works as long as the Watch is true).

The problem with that is that it also blocks the outside from the minds of the people inside and lets them forget why they chose to build a civilisation in the first place, resulting in,

• Discord
  
• Complacency
  
• Corruption
  

And finally civilisation will fall, if there's no change or the introduction of outsiders who are still aware of the benefits of civilisation.

How Martin will set this into the novels I don't want to speculate, but I don't think that he regards the Wall as a very good solution. He lets a blue flower grow in a chink of the Wall, I think this fissure will widen into a large crack or actually it already does.

Edited in, missing letters.