Is it implausible to believe that the Others built the Wall?

[Blazfemur]

Definitely not getting involved in this blatant fight (it doesnt appear to be debate anymore) over the subject matter.

The moral of this entire thread is, one side believes:

1) There's more to history which was in fact, blatantly altered (Sam to Jon, Night's Watch Library, records purposely destroyed which includes anything that WOULD HAVE contradicted what present-day historians would have you believe).

And then the other side:

2) Believe everything the night's watch tells you, how things went down, disregard the destruction of historical context, and believe how things are as they are.

Me, personally? I see a huge wall made up of an element that Others can apparently manipulate and shape to their will (TWOIAF states they can make things out of ice), i see a group of "brothers" that has a history of corruption and is manned by thieves, liars, and rapists. I see a King that was exiled for loving a female Other, and we have seen or read about zero females in the Other army. I then see that his records were destroyed and we have literally nothing to go on EXCEPT the word-of-mouth of the very people that exiled him.

I'm in the camp that believes the Others cast up the wall for a reason. Probably defensively. There's information that was blatantly destroyed on purpose, and until we know what that information is, this thread is a waste of time to even argue. Our two sides will permantly be divided without conclusion until more material is released. I'm definitely NOT going to cave, and niether is the other side.

Logistically, the wall could have been cast up by the Others, then lost by conquest to The Watch. The wall at this point may have been just a physical wall, then when the Children Of The Forest made the alliance with the watch, they could have enhanced the physical wall with COTF wards/magic. The tunnel with the gate under the fort? That's EASILY dug & constructed after the wall is built. I have no problem believing Bran the Builder built the castles, forts, maybe even the weirwood gate itself. I then would refer to Fomas in regards to Others and how the wall was built:

"...That they became monstroust int he tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch & the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

You might ask yourself, well, that one statement proves nothing.

Well, it certainly doesn't DISPROVE our inklings, but further supports ideas that were around already BEFORE TWOIAF was released.

[David C. Hunter]

Definitely not getting involved in this blatant fight (it doesnt appear to be debate anymore) over the subject matter.

The moral of this entire thread is, one side believes:

1) There's more to history which was in fact, blatantly altered (Sam to Jon, Night's Watch Library, records purposely destroyed which includes anything that WOULD HAVE contradicted what present-day historians would have you believe).

And then the other side:

2) Believe everything the night's watch tells you, how things went down, disregard the destruction of historical context, and believe how things are as they are.

Me, personally? I see a huge wall made up of an element that Others can apparently manipulate and shape to their will (TWOIAF states they can make things out of ice), i see a group of "brothers" that has a history of corruption and is manned by thieves, liars, and rapists. I see a King that was exiled for loving a female Other, and we have seen or read about zero females in the Other army. I then see that his records were destroyed and we have literally nothing to go on EXCEPT the word-of-mouth of the very people that exiled him.

I'm in the camp that believes the Others cast up the wall for a reason. Probably defensively. There's information that was blatantly destroyed on purpose, and until we know what that information is, this thread is a waste of time to even argue. Our two sides will permantly be divided without conclusion until more material is released. I'm definitely NOT going to cave, and niether is the other side.

Logistically, the wall could have been cast up by the Others, then lost by conquest to The Watch. The wall at this point may have been just a physical wall, then when the Children Of The Forest made the alliance with the watch, they could have enhanced the physical wall with COTF wards/magic. The tunnel with the gate under the fort? That's EASILY dug & constructed after the wall is built. I have no problem believing Bran the Builder built the castles, forts, maybe even the weirwood gate itself. I then would refer to Fomas in regards to Others and how the wall was built:

"...That they became monstroust int he tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch & the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

You might ask yourself, well, that one statement proves nothing.

Well, it certainly doesn't DISPROVE our inklings, but further supports ideas that were around already BEFORE TWOIAF was released.

You sir indeed, get it :cool4:

[Blazfemur]

I also acknowledge the following:

IF the existence of the night's queen is proven FALSE (AND it might, again, ive seen ZERO female Others, only wights, and we have ONLY to go on the word of mouth of the Watch), then The Night's King has followed the basic rules of the night's Oath, BECAUSE:

1) He TAKES wildling children, he does not father them.

2) He takes only the boys, so no females, no possibility of wiving males

3) From what we've read (the little we've read), they appear to be on the move, slowly, but on the move, it could be implied they hold no lands unofficially.

[Blazfemur]

You sir indeed, get it :cool4:

thank you kind sir. Im fully ready to acknowledge defeat in my thoughts, we literally need more information before we could come to a conclusion. The Night's King HASNT EVEN BEEN INTRODUCED YET.

[Mithras]

I'm in the camp that believes the Others cast up the wall for a reason. Probably defensively. There's information that was blatantly destroyed on purpose, and until we know what that information is, this thread is a waste of time to even argue. Our two sides will permantly be divided without conclusion until more material is released. I'm definitely NOT going to cave, and niether is the other side.

The Wall does not seem to be able to defend the Others from anything we could think of right now whereas people apparently running from the Others and wights are trying to get behind the Wall.

Pour some water in a wooden barrel and let it freeze. Then, remove the wood and tada! You are an Other because you are able to manipulate ice. It is magic.

[Dorian Martell]

You keep repeating the same argument over the length of this thread to various posters that basically goes: "no way, this isn't plausible because Martin hasn't revealed it to be the case yet." This isn't an argument.

1. How is this an argument? You say that the Others can't possibly have something more going on with them because we haven't seen it yet? Does this argument actually make sense to you?

As an adjacent point, don't you think that the fact Martin has taken great pains to show us multiple perspectives that such a reveal of the Others is likely as well? You seriously do not think that the way Martin's played this out makes it seem like more information and additional perspective on the Others is forthcoming?

Out of interest, are you of the opinion that fire and dragons are the solution to all the problems of the world of something by virtue of their being ice's opposite, which you apparently believe is the unmitigated big bad? If so, then it looks like you missed how he's been disabusing us of the notion that "dragons + fire= good" over the books. Ice has remained largely a mystery to us, but we get a lot of perspectives on fire, and the more we see the more monstrous it is. This should tell you that ice is probably not the shallow alien "problem" of the story to overcome. And that as fire has been further identified, so too will ice.

2. How does it inhibit their wights? Have we actually seen wights try to get through the Wall and fail? NO. We have not. Wights do not animate during the day. They animate at night it appears. So that's why Jafer and Othor were corpse- like when the Watch found them during the day.

We have not seen a wight actually attempt to climb or otherwise pass through the ICE (as opposed to the weirwood door). So we do not know if they have any trouble navigating around the Wall.

But we DO know that the Wall does not interfere with having the wights reanimate and attack once on the south side.

3. How are you disagreeing with me if you admit that it weakens the old gods powers? Bloodraven and Bran are both connected to weirwoods, which seems to be a stronger "wired" connection. And, btw, this point was already discussed in the thread. The Wall seems to interrupt "wireless" skinchanging, i.e. anyone not hooked up to a weirwood.

If you admit it weakens the old gods powers, then why are you of the belief that the old gods have anything to do with the construction of this Wall?

1: Absence of Evidence is not evidence in in itself. Also, I have not said they can't have anything more going on, what I said it that until we see it we can only go by what we have seen, which is wanton killing of anything warm and living, and because of that killing hte wall was built by humans, giants and the CTOF specifically to keep the others out. That is what I am saying. Anything else is speculation, mental masturbation or at worst, fan fiction. The others may be pot smoking hippies weaving flower wreaths but we have not seen that.

Butterbumps, do you at least agree that there is a possibility of the Jefferson Airplane and Jimi Hendrix are playing a flower child LSD themed concert in the land of always winter? I mean, we haven't seen it so maybe it is warm and balmy, with naked hippies, and the others killing people who are super cold are just a small group not in league with the rest of the fun loving, pot smoking LSD taking hippy others? I mean, there is no evidence to say otherwise so it must at least possibly be true, right?

As for the Dragons, teh large out of control beasts eating dead bodies and nesting in Mereen and hunting on the Dothraki sea, As of now, with all the POv's that have seen them (Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, and Tyrion) they seem totally out of control and growing larger. My Guess is that Two out of the the three dragons will end up going feral leaving one to be the fire in the fire and ice battle, whatever that may be. But as of now that is pure speculation on my part, with no basis in the text.

2: Wights can animate during the day. Like they did outside of the CTOF cave. It was nearing sundown but still technically daytime. Sam and Leaf both speak of magic preventing undead from passing through barriers that are magically warded. Like the Wall, the door of the night fort and the cave entrance, magic prevents the undead from passing through. the way the builders intended. By dance, North of the wall everyone who dies becomes a wight. Tormund speaks to Jon of it. Just south of the wall, no undead unless they were dragged through. It is the primary reason for the wildlings moving south beyond the wall, the wall that stops the magic of the others that are taking over the lands north of the wall. AS for Othor and Jafer, they were already reanimated wights, waiting to be dragged beneath the wall. The wall magic does not kill them, it just prevents them from moving through.

3: It does not weaken "the old gods powers." It serves to block magic, which comes in many forms but it is still magic. Weirwood, Fire, Blood, and the ice magic of the others, all magic. Bran and Bloodraven and to a lesser extent Mel are the only magic users who seem to be able to overcome the wall. As for the wired or wireless, it means nothing, Bloodraven spoke to bran when he was in a tower of winterfell, not near a weirwood. Bran Talks to Jon across the wall and it was Jon near the weirwood. Mel sees visions of Bran, the 3EC and Jon snow at castle black, and she talks of her magic growing stronger near the wall.

As a magical barrier, it prevents a lot of magic from crossing. As of who built it, according to what we have been shown in the books, That Humans, Giants and the CTOF built the wall and warded it with spells. Like Storms end and how mel needed to get past the outer wall to pinch out the shadow baby and like how the Wights and Coldhands could not enter the CTOF cave,

What I don't understand is how folks can be so vehemently supportive of some theory that is pure speculation and only backed up by "GRRM wouldn't write that way so there must be something else" and be completely dismissive of something that is shown in the book through history, tale, myth and POV.

Why should we cast judgement on something we know little about? Doesn't it make more sense to keep an open-mind since we know little about them?

This is exactly what I've tried to say in other threads, it's just a matter of perspectives. If GRRM gave us Ghiscari POV's dragons would be viewed as monsters given their past with them but the truth of it is that they are neither good or evil and there is a lot more than them just being monsters. The pthers are presented to us from a human POV and a tale is told from the perspective from the victors, so casting judgement is a bit too early.

Open minds are fine, Denying what is presented in the text because of someones speculation is not an opened mind though. There is a reason that GRRM gave us the POV's he did and set up the antagonists the way he did. As of now, the others are the ultimate bad guy, looming over the petty squabbles of men in the south and east.

[Blazfemur]

The Wall does not seem to be able to defend the Others from anything we could think of right now whereas people apparently running from the Others and wights are trying to get behind the Wall.

Pour some water in a wooden barrel and let it freeze. Then, remove the wood and tada! You are an Other because you are able to manipulate ice.

how is that even remotely constructive, or deconstructive to anything we're trying to accomplish here?

did you mis the part where the children of the forest made an alliance with the watch? the supposed magic on this physical wall, is supposedly the same magic on bloodraven's cave in repelling the dead. Ice is blatantly physical. The magical side, (again), could be an enhancement done by Bran building the gate, and then the COTF enchanting it all.

The Others lost the wall by conquest, it would appear.

Finally, i'd like to once again reiterate that this argument is POINTLESS until we get more material. It's impossible to come to a legitimate conclusion as everything (including your side) is just theory.

[Lykos]

The Wall does not seem to be able to defend the Others from anything we could think of right now whereas people apparently running from the Others and wights are trying to get behind the Wall.

Or the Others are pushing the wildlings out of an area for yet unknown reasons, they've struck at stragglers and strays if we believe Mance and Tormund, but never attacked in force.

It's not that I'm saying your believes are definitely wrong, but they stand on less solid ground than you think. ( Thin ice if you like.)

[Blazfemur]

1: Absence of Evidence is not evidence in in itself.

This is the moral of this thread, and it works both ways. That's why this argument will have no conclusion. WE NEED MORE. But we are free to theorize. ALWAYS, keep this quote in mind, FOR BOTH SIDES.

It should be a goddamn disclaimer on every theory thread that people come up with.

[butterbumps!]

1: Absence of Evidence is not evidence in in itself. Also, I have not said they can't have anything more going on, what I said it that until we see it we can only go by what we have seen, which is wanton killing of anything warm and living, and because of that killing hte wall was built by humans, giants and the CTOF specifically to keep the others out. That is what I am saying. Anything else is speculation, mental masturbation or at worst, fan fiction. The others may be pot smoking hippies weaving flower wreaths but we have not seen that.

Butterbumps, do you at least agree that there is a possibility of the Jefferson Airplane and Jimi Hendrix are playing a flower child LSD themed concert in the land of always winter? I mean, we haven't seen it so maybe it is warm and balmy, with naked hippies, and the others killing people who are super cold are just a small group not in league with the rest of the fun loving, pot smoking LSD taking hippy others? I mean, there is no evidence to say otherwise so it must at least possibly be true, right?

As for the Dragons, teh large out of control beasts eating dead bodies and nesting in Mereen and hunting on the Dothraki sea, As of now, with all the POv's that have seen them (Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, and Tyrion) they seem totally out of control and growing larger. My Guess is that Two out of the the three dragons will end up going feral leaving one to be the fire in the fire and ice battle, whatever that may be. But as of now that is pure speculation on my part, with no basis in the text.

2: Wights can animate during the day. Like they did outside of the CTOF cave. It was nearing sundown but still technically daytime. Sam and Leaf both speak of magic preventing undead from passing through barriers that are magically warded. Like the Wall, the door of the night fort and the cave entrance, magic prevents the undead from passing through. the way the builders intended. By dance, North of the wall everyone who dies becomes a wight. Tormund speaks to Jon of it. Just south of the wall, no undead unless they were dragged through. It is the primary reason for the wildlings moving south beyond the wall, the wall that stops the magic of the others that are taking over the lands north of the wall. AS for Othor and Jafer, they were already reanimated wights, waiting to be dragged beneath the wall. The wall magic does not kill them, it just prevents them from moving through.

3: It does not weaken "the old gods powers." It serves to block magic, which comes in many forms but it is still magic. Weirwood, Fire, Blood, and the ice magic of the others, all magic. Bran and Bloodraven and to a lesser extent Mel are the only magic users who seem to be able to overcome the wall. As for the wired or wireless, it means nothing, Bloodraven spoke to bran when he was in a tower of winterfell, not near a weirwood. Bran Talks to Jon across the wall and it was Jon near the weirwood. Mel sees visions of Bran, the 3EC and Jon snow at castle black, and she talks of her magic growing stronger near the wall.

As a magical barrier, it prevents a lot of magic from crossing. As of who built it, according to what we have been shown in the books, That Humans, Giants and the CTOF built the wall and warded it with spells. Like Storms end and how mel needed to get past the outer wall to pinch out the shadow baby and like how the Wights and Coldhands could not enter the CTOF cave,

What I don't understand is how folks can be so vehemently supportive of some theory that is pure speculation and only backed up by "GRRM wouldn't write that way so there must be something else" and be completely dismissive of something that is shown in the book through history, tale, myth and POV.

Open minds are fine, Denying what is presented in the text because of someones speculation is not an opened mind though. There is a reason that GRRM gave us the POV's he did and set up the antagonists the way he did. As of now, the others are the ultimate bad guy, looming over the petty squabbles of men in the south and east.

Before this gets out of control, what you think I'm arguing?

There is NO evidence that the Wall impedes either Others or wights. It is pointless to continue any discussion about this until we're all on the same page on this issue. We have not seen wights or Others trying to get through the ice Wall and fail. So we do not know that it impedes the Others in any way. Which means we cannot be building theories on the premise that it impedes the Others.

As a final point, do you realize how much speculation and assumptions you're making on your end? Do you see that you're using extremely speculative theories to support your view that the Others did not build the Wall? I'm asking this because you seem to be accusing those of us who believe there's something more to the Others to be guilty of unsubstantiated speculation, yet your entire post is nothing but speculations and assumptions and faulty premises. Paring this down to the simple "knowns" is probably in everyone's best interest.

[Mithras]

how is that even remotely constructive, or deconstructive to anything we're trying to accomplish here?

did you mis the part where the children of the forest made an alliance with the watch? the supposed magic on this physical wall, is supposedly the same magic on bloodraven's cave in repelling the dead. Ice is blatantly physical. The magical side, (again), could be an enhancement done by Bran building the gate, and then the COTF enchanting it all.

The Others lost the wall by conquest, it would appear.

Finally, i'd like to once again reiterate that this argument is POINTLESS until we get more material. It's impossible to come to a legitimate conclusion as everything (including your side) is just theory.

If the CotF acquired the Wall by conquest from the Others, then they should be able to remove the old gods blocking ward and replace it with an Other blocking ward.

Or the Others are pushing the wildlings out of an area for yet unknown reasons, they've struck at stragglers and strays if we believe Mance and Tormund, but never attacked in force.

It's not that I'm saying your believes are definitely wrong, but they stand on less solid ground than you think. ( Thin ice if you like.)

Or perhaps the reason they never attacked in force is because they are not strong enough to do that and they are trying to use all of their resources (for example wights) at maximum efficiency. Perhaps there are very few Others, especially if they depend on one certain Craster sacrificing his sons.

It was worth spending two wights if they were able to take out the LC of the NW.

It was worth trying to storm the Fist and slay as many NW members as they could get although the wight loss was high.

The pattern may suggest that they pay great attention to wiping out the NW members than the wildlings. Is it because the magic at the Wall will stay as long as the NW stays intact and true, as hinted in Old Nan's tales?

And now Hardhome. They have been preparing to obtain a massive wight army which will perhaps make them strong enough to storm the Wall.

[Blazfemur]

Before this gets out of control, what you think I'm arguing?

There is NO evidence that the Wall impedes either Others or wights. It is pointless to continue any discussion about this until we're all on the same page on this issue. We have not seen wights or Others trying to get through the ice Wall and fail. So we do not know that it impedes the Others in any way. Which means we cannot be building theories on the premise that it impedes the Others.

As a final point, do you realize how much speculation and assumptions you're making on your end? Do you see that you're using extremely speculative theories to support your view that the Others did not build the Wall?

Wights DID get in the wall, one attacked Mormont and Jon had to save him, burning his hand, remember? IT DOES NOT repel wights. And we DONT know if it repels Others, because none of them attempted to.

Furthermore, if the gate can only be opened by a member of the watch, who's to say The Night's King (13th Lord Commander Stark), CANT go through on his own. He was a MEMBER and still serves (Others are "alive," only wights are dead)

[Mithras]

“He’s dead.” Bran could taste the bile in his throat. “Meera, he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl.”

But who cares the fancy tales of Old Nan. She was a crazy old lady.

[Blazfemur]

Can i ask a legitimate question?

Melisandre stated her magic is stronger, on the wall.

Where has it EVER stated, that the wall (even if magical) repels Others or Wights?

Where does it say it, EXACTLY, other than being a physical wall.

Again, wight attacked Jon and Jeor. How'd he get in. How?! I've seen a barrier on bloodraven's cave, blocking wights. Where have we seen any attempts to prove in of itself the wall has a magical barrier.

The gate being opened by a member of the watch isnt necessarily a magical barrier, it's still a physical one, but not one to REPEL anything.

[Blazfemur]

“He’s dead.” Bran could taste the bile in his throat. “Meera, he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl.”

But who cares the fancy tales of Old Nan. She was a crazy old lady.

you wanna go old nan? Ok we'll go old nan.

"All crows are liars."

/endthread

[butterbumps!]

Wights DID get in the wall, one attacked Mormont and Jon had to save him, burning his hand, remember? IT DOES NOT repel wights. And we DONT know if it repels Others, because none of them attempted to.

Furthermore, if the gate can only be opened by a member of the watch, who's to say The Night's King (13th Lord Commander Stark), CANT go through on his own. He was a MEMBER and still serves (Others are "alive," only wights are dead)

uh, yea. I've been pointing out how wights got through and reanimated South of the Wall (you made that sound like I was somehow in disagreement-- did you think I was saying otherwise?)

There is no evidence that the Wall interferes with Others or wights or that the Wall stops wights or Others, so my post was a request for those who keep arguing that it inhibits the Others to stop and go back to the knowns, abandoning that premise.

For the record, the Black Gate is a weirwood door under the ice Wall. It might have absolutely nothing to do with the actual Wall. It might have been created after the Wall was made to counteract it for all we know.

[Blazfemur]

uh, yea. I've been pointing out how wights got through and reanimated South of the Wall.

There is no evidence that the Wall interferes with Others or wights or that the Wall stops wights or Others, so my post was a request for those who keep arguing that it inhibits the Others to stop and go back to the knowns, abandoning that premise.

For the record, the Black Gate is a weirwood door under the ice Wall. It might have absolutely nothing to do with the actual Wall. It might have been created after the Wall was made to counteract it for all we know.

Sorry, misunderstood. We are in perfect agreement actually. Bran may have built the castles, forts, and ill even give credit to the gate. Hell, if there is magic, id even attribute COTF warding AFTER the wall was won by conquest by the night's watch. IF there is a ward. It doesnt appear there is any, nothing except a physical wall of ice, and a physical door.

[Lykos]

If the CotF acquired the Wall by conquest from the Others, then they should be able to remove the old gods blocking ward and replace it with an Other blocking ward.

Or perhaps the reason they never attacked in force is because they are not strong enough to do that and they are trying to use all of their resources (for example wights) at maximum efficiency. Perhaps there are very few Others, especially if they depend on one certain Craster sacrificing his sons.

It was worth spending two wights if they were able to take out the LC of the NW.

Yes perhaps, or perhaps not. There's no shortage in Wights as the Fist showed and as I said they seem to hold grudges.

The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say.

The monsters are probably too honourable to breach an agreed upon barrier as long as the Watch stays true, which means - now they can pass at will.

[Mithras]

you wanna go old nan? Ok we'll go old nan.

"All crows are liars."

/endthread

Do you have any idea why she could have said that?

Hint: That is exactly what Ygritte would have said about Jon after he fled from the Thenns.

[Blazfemur]

Do you have any idea why she could have said that?

Hint: That is exactly what Ygritte would have said about Jon after he fled from the Thenns.

ugh, it's the same argument over and over, with ANY thread that even dares to question history as it was ***purposely*** altered.

leaving this thread, on account on there being too little information released to prove me right OR wrong, and also on account of people failing to realize that. It's a redundant subject