Is it implausible to believe that the Others built the Wall?

[mee aar dun wee wee]

It's repeatedly said that the Wall is a magical as well as a physical barrier. Why would the White Walkers build a wall that would limit their movements but not their enemies movements? It would be like the Mongols building the Great Wall.

Plus, there's no indication that they are in any way capable of building anything like this. Is there any evidence that they can manipulate ice in any way?

GRRM has already showed them stealing babies and slaughtering men, women, and children; then they reanimate those corpses and force them to kill their family members. It's gonna feel pretty damn ridiculous if he tries to make them not evil.

That last paragraph has made me think what kind of story we could possibly get in the last few books to make these white walkers not seem like the stereo typical bad guys. The more I think about them the more I realise we have no idea what there real agenda is. But I agree I'd just rather them be evil

[Attitude]

jesus christ ive been saying this forever and all anyone says it's crackpot. it's a wall made of ICE. they BUILT the wall, THEN lost it to the night's watch, THEN they recruited bran the builder to build the castles and nightforts, and took credit for the whole thing.

they may not have even built it, much more "cast" it

Cast a wall and place spells on them, and those spells stop you from going through the wall. That would've been stupid.

If they did it, wouldn't they have casted spells which made sure humans couldn't go through?

[ummester]

The wall is a semi permeable membrane to a nature reserve, or the place with the 'old ways' and natural things are protected from men.

The new door at Castle Black doesn't show the Wall's original purpose, that old door that Sam went through with Coldhands does. Only people that have spoken the old words and have faith in the old ways are supposed to go north of the wall.

Andals and Targs just fucked it all up, changing Westeros over time and superseding the old ways.

Oh and the Others don't steal Craster's sons - he gives them willingly, there is no theft involved. It's a sacrifice in accordance with the forgotten old ways.

Not sure who built the Wall but it was probably done so in agreement with the Others, after the Long Night (or to end The Long Night). Odd that the Nights King was number 13 and that the Last Hero had a dozen companions, no? A little too co-incidental, I wager.

[Blazfemur]

Cast a wall and place spells on them, and those spells stop you from going through the wall. That would've been stupid.

If they did it, wouldn't they have casted spells which made sure humans couldn't go through?

The physical wall taken over, and then reinforced with COTF magic, the SAME magic they cast on Bloodravens cave. They did have an alliance, you know.

[shadow282]

Alternately, this can be flipped over. The Others may not consider humans to be "people" any more than humans consider trees to be people. As such, killing a human and using its corpse + magic to attack more humans would hardly be different from fashioning an axe from wood + metal, and use that to chop away more trees.

Okay, it's possible that they see it that way. However, that doesn't make them not evil, it just means that from their perspective they aren't evil. Almost nobody ever considers themselves evil. That doesn't mean that nobody is evil.

We judge evil based off a human perspective because we are human. And from a human perspective, the Others are evil. Showing us their perspective may let us understand them better, but it doesn't change that their actions are the definition of human evil. Again, any attempt to change that will just seem silly.

[ummester]

We judge evil based off a human perspective because we are human. And from a human perspective, the Others are evil. Showing us their perspective may let us understand them better, but it doesn't change that their actions are the definition of human evil. Again, any attempt to change that will just seem silly.

Speak for yourself.

Judging 'evil' from a solely human perspective is humanist and narrow minded.

[shadow282]

Speak for yourself.

Judging 'evil' from a solely human perspective is humanist and narrow minded.

Too bad. The definition of evil comes solely from a human perspective. There's no other way to judge it.

You're welcome to write a definition of evil from the perspective of the Others if you want.

[ummester]

Too bad. The definition of evil comes solely from a human perspective. There's no other way to judge it.

You're welcome to write a definition of evil from the perspective of the Others if you want.

I don't think there is evil in ASoIaF.

Yet, in the series, we are reading about a world, which is presented by the various POVs of (mostly) human characters (I would argue Mel is not human). We are invited to form a world view.

[shadow282]

I don't think there is evil in ASoIaF.

Yet, in the series, we are reading about a world, which is presented by the various POVs of (mostly) human characters (I would argue Mel is not human). We are invited to form a world view.

Of course there is evil. That's utterly ridiculous. There are rapists, murderers, torturers, child rapists, child murderers, psychopaths, ect. Do you think they aren't evil? Is someone like the Mountain not evil?

[Blazfemur]

Of course there is evil. That's utterly ridiculous. There are rapists, murderers, torturers, child rapists, child murderers, psychopaths, ect. Do you think they aren't evil? Is someone like the Mountain not evil?

i think what he meant is that evil isnt necessarily black and white, that there were gradients in between. the same logic would make sandor wholly evil, and jaime. stoneheart being truly evil (no need for a purpose).

the point i think is the gradients of evil, and that NO ONE is necessarily "black." when there's purpose, and when you feel your doing the "right" thing, id consider it a gradient. the closest to wholly "black" i think would be Gregor and Ramsay. the truth of the matter is: we don't know the actual story of the night's king. dont get me wrong, i doubt he's a paladin in shining armor, but the point is, we dont know, and to further add to the mystery, his written records were destroyed so everyone's going on "oh, this one guy who erased his history said he was a bad guy, he MUST be a be-all end-all evil."

while he may be a shade, darker, he may have a purpose and a reasoning for his pursuit. thats all im saying. a little more sandor, than gregor. actually, sandor's a perfect example. he was villainized, and was he inherently the devil? FURTHER someone took his helm, and masqueraded AS him, soiling his name further. Perfect example.

[ummester]

Of course there is evil. That's utterly ridiculous. There are rapists, murderers, torturers, child rapists, child murderers, psychopaths, ect. Do you think they aren't evil? Is someone like the Mountain not evil?

It's not ridiculous if you try and think objectively and get over a subjective, human POV.

Jamie started as a nasty incestuous attempted child murderer and now he is one of the more heroic figures in the series. As readers, we judged Jamie on the POV of others and then, when his POV was offered, we were able to judge him on himself. We have not been offered a Mountain or Ramsay POV - but I don't think it matters as some characters are just painted as monsters to progress the plot and aid with more important character development. Vargo, Gregor and Ramsay are these type of characters - they are the stories' monsters that exist for other characters to develop or face as obstacles.

I'm certain ASoIaF is going to paint the supernatural 'monsters' (such as The Others, CotF) as equally sympathetic, if not more sympathetic than the humans as part of it's conclusion. It is a logical place for the narrative to go after how it has presented the human characters.

Ask yourself a simple question - all of the character drama, development and twist and turns aside - what has been happening in overall plot of ASoIaF for 5 lengthy books?

[RoamingRonin]

When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from Martin answered, "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it."

I think it's possible.

[Blazfemur]

All crows are liars.

[ummester]

Corn, corn, corn - liar, liar, liar

[Blazfemur]

A common idea with a lot of forum users is "believe EVERYTHING the characters in the book tells you, and dont try to anticipate a twist because theorizing a twist is crackpot and fan fiction, ignore all clues and just accept whats immediately in front of you."

and i just dont get it, i wont do it, I WONT i tell ya!

[Dorian Martell]

jesus christ ive been saying this forever and all anyone says it's crackpot. it's a wall made of ICE. they BUILT the wall, THEN lost it to the night's watch, THEN they recruited bran the builder to build the castles and nightforts, and took credit for the whole thing.

Im honestly asking, because for me it is becoming a greater and greater mystery about who actually built the Wall.

Although we do not know all of their powers, the Children of the Forest seem to be more connected to nature magic. Warging, Skin changing, greenseeing, manipulating land (evidently). But there isn't one piece of evidence anywhere that states that the Children can manipulate ice, especially to such an extent that it created the Wall.

Now, it is stated that the Wall grew overtime and that it was baiscally built by Bran the Builder, The First Men, the COTF and Giants. It is also hinted that Winterfell was built around the same time by Bran the Builder, who also became the first Stark King.

We never really questioned it.

But it just seems strange to me that The White Walkers, the masters of Ice and it's manipulation, 'didn't' build the greatest structure of Westeros that is made entirely out of ice? It also clearly seems to have a magic to it (As does Winterfell at times)

Im one of those people that never viewed the Others as evil because thats not the kind of writer GRRM is, which makes the fact that they are viewed this way as a major red herring.

So what are they after? If the White Walkers were the ones who built the wall and by proxy, Winterfell, then what is the truth about the end of the Long Night?

Im starting to feel like...the COTF didnt have anything to do with the Wall being built. In fact, there are no accounts of the Children being around during the Long Night. Ever story that takes place during that time is filled wth Humans and White Walkers, but there is no mention of the Children. Its almost as if it is just assumed that the Children helped. But according to the Last Hero, no one had seen the Children for years and evidently they seemed to have just left the humans to die.

Im not saying the Children are evil, but it seems like they were content with the humans dying out. Hell, they seem to be content hiding in caves and fishing for food deep underground. I dont really think the Children helped during the Long Night, at least, not as much as they claim to have.

Im not sure what to make of it all, but I think the White Walkers have the highest potential to have built the wall.

And heres another thing....supposedly the Wall prevents the Others from entering Westeros right? Well, what about the Queen of the Night's King? She seemed to be doing fine in the Nightfort south of the Wall. I dont know what the future of this story is going but it seems that the Wall, The White Walkers and the Children are all red herrings and that GRRM is the master of misdirection, What do yall think? Is it plausible?

The problem with all of this reimagining is that it required a willful disregard of everything told to us in the books by various sources. We are told of the Others' hatred of warmth and living. We are shown them killing people with ferocious abandon and using the reanimated corpses to wage war on folks on the other side of a great barrier that if they themselves built, not only prevented their own movements but gave their enemies protection and freedom of movement as well. It makes ZERO sense. I have read a few theories regarding the idea that the others built the wall and they all take a number of huge leaps based on theories with no textual basis to be plausible. The others aren't just a group of wildlings that went WAY far north, they are magical creatures that exist in cold that is unbearable to people and have done nothing but try to kill every person they encounter. We the readers have seen this. When combined with the the fact that the wall is the one of the few barriers that stop them and the oral traditions told by folks like Old Nan and we can only draw one conclusion that the wall was built and magically enchanted by the likes of people, giants and the children of the forest to keep out the Others. Since people, giants and the CTOF can pass under the wall and the Others/Wights cannot, then you have a nail in the coffin of the "wall was built by the others" theories

[ummester]

A common idea with a lot of forum users is "believe EVERYTHING the characters in the book tells you, and dont try to anticipate a twist because theorizing a twist is crackpot and fan fiction, ignore all clues and just accept whats immediately in front of you."

and i just dont get it, i wont do it, I WONT i tell ya!

I'm not even trying to theorize a twist as such - just trying to work out what the story is actually about and where it is going to end up. Certainly, with multiple POVs, the story is not about Dany, or Jon, or Jamie, or Arya, or Bran, or Sansa, or Cersie, or Stannis - the story must be about all of these characters and the world in which they live. What I have seen occur, over 5 books, is the world in which these characters live go from kind of unstable to worse because of their and other characters actions so logically must accept that if The Others are the enemy of all human kind then relative to their world, they will probably not be as bad for it or the Others aren't the enemy of all human kind and have just been built up as this other so that humans have a counterpoint to justify themselves against in the story.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Sooo...I ask this.

If the Others built The Wall...can you imagine the balls on the guy who said..."I want this wall, I don't care if they have pale white spiders big as hounds."

Um...nope!

I can deal with pretty much any issue one a ranch...dogs, coyotes, scorpions, snakes of all kinds, etc. But pale spiders big as hounds...even if they were big as Chihuahuas...NOPE! Unless Old Nan can provide me with some ASoIaF RAID...shit ain't happening.

I'm packing my bags and taking my chances in Yeen!

[ummester]

Do you think the pale whit spiders as big as hounds are an actual thing, or are they more like Grumpkins and Snarks - a human perversion of an actual thing.

Grumpkins to me seem very much like CotF and Snarks like Giants.

If the others rode on dead mounts, like half skeletal horses, bears, unicorns (wooly rhinos), perhaps the idea of spiders is just a perversion of that.

Consider in Jons arc he has gone from thinking wildlings and Giants are different to viewing them as kindred - so far. In Brans arc he has gone from thinking the CotF are mythical and potentially dangerous to seeing them somewhat as kindred. There is no reason this line of understanding cannot be extended to the Others.

The problem with all of this reimagining is that it required a willful disregard of everything told to us in the books by various sources. We are told of the Others' hatred of warmth and living. We are shown them killing people with ferocious abandon and using the reanimated corpses to wage war on folks on the other side of a great barrier that if they themselves built, not only prevented their own movements but gave their enemies protection and freedom of movement as well. It makes ZERO sense. I have read a few theories regarding the idea that the others built the wall and they all take a number of huge leaps based on theories with no textual basis to be plausible. The others aren't just a group of wildlings that went WAY far north, they are magical creatures that exist in cold that is unbearable to people and have done nothing but try to kill every person they encounter. We the readers have seen this. When combined with the the fact that the wall is the one of the few barriers that stop them and the oral traditions told by folks like Old Nan and we can only draw one conclusion that the wall was built and magically enchanted by the likes of people, giants and the children of the forest to keep out the Others. Since people, giants and the CTOF can pass under the wall and the Others/Wights cannot, then you have a nail in the coffin of the "wall was built by the others" theories

Have we even seen an Other try and pass south of the wall? How do we know they cannot pass, other than tales humans have told each other.

I recon that magic hatch Sam went through would stop them but the gate at Castle Black won't do squat, because the magic is removed - it's just a tunnel.

The wall could have been built as part of an agreement - that the Others were happy to stay on one side of so long as only people the respected the old ways went north of it. Because of the gate at Castle Black and a non binding tunnel, anyone can now go anyway and the agreement is no longer valid.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Originally, I thought the pale white spiders, big as hounds was just a tale.

Now...they could be...or they could be as exactly as you suggest.

Hell...grumpkins could be the spider masters and snarks could be their thralls. Or CotF and Giants. We will probably never know.

And Coldhands could not pass through the wall...and he was Bloodraven's Thrall (hence the Ravens that save him..."Raven's Teeth").