The Ifequevron = the Children of the Forest?

[LmL]

It sounds more like excessive xenophobia to me. And the Lengii don't listen to the Old Ones anymore; the YiTish Emperor who conquered them had the entrances to the ruins all sealed and I don't believe they've been reopened. Also, it was only the Lengii Empresses who communed with the Old Ones.

Correct, it was the Empress who communed with the old ones, and yes Jar Har, the sixth of the Sea Green emperors, "decreed" that they be sealed. Slight ambiguity there.. Then, 400 years ago (same time as the Doom, not sure if that's a coincidence or not), the Lengii threw off the yoke of the YiTish and now the Empress is called a God-Empress - perhaps in imitation of the YiTish, or perhaps a connotation of regaining magical ability. We really have no idea if they have gone back to old worship or not.

As for the executions, I agree it sounds like xenophobia, but then the COTF did the same thing. Hiding the blood sacrifice behind a story of xenophobia makes sense too, from a historical perspective (the YiTish would only know that people were killed, not why). I also think it's exactly the sort of thing George would do if he were trying to obscure the connection between the Lengii / Old Ones and the COTF. All the old legends have a more plausible cover story attached - and we are meant to try to guess which is which.

[Mithras]

Not CotF.

But I think they are a race of men who have CotF ancestry just like the crannogmen.

“The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees.

“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment, for grains do not flourish amidst the fens and swamps and salt marshes of the Neck, and the crannogmen subsist largely upon a diet of fish, frogs, and lizards), they are quite secretive, preferring to keep to themselves.

The God-Kings of Ib, before their fall, did succeed in conquering and colonizing a huge swathe of northern Essos immediately south of Ib itself, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands. The Dothraki still call the great forest along the northern coast the Kingdom of the Ifequevron, the name by which they knew the vanished forest-dwellers.

The fabled Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was the first Westerosi to visit these woods. After his return from the Thousand Islands, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. A later traveler, the merchant-adventurer Bryan of Oldtown, captain of the cog Spearshaker, provided an account of his own journey across the Shivering Sea. He reported that the Dothraki name for the lost people meant “those who walk in the woods.” None of the Ibbenese that Bryan of Oldtown met could say they had ever seen a woods walker, but claimed that the little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

In the southeast the proud city-states of the Qaathi arose; in the forests to the north, along the shores of the Shivering Sea, were the domains of the woods walkers, a diminutive folk whom many maesters believe to have been kin to the children of the forest;

I think the forest-dwellers in the Kingdom of the Ifequevron were human-CotF hybrids similar to the crannogmen. Keeping in mind that wood dancers, woods walkers, crannogmen magic ability to “fly through trees”, consider this:

“Some say he [The Night’s King] was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

House Woodfoot held Bear Island before the ironmen came. I think House Woodfoot produced some skinchangers and had CotF ancestors too. I also think that the Mormonts are just the same.

“No. My children were fathered by a bear.” Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. “Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows.”

“Dywen says you can find anything beyond the Wall.”

“Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall.” Mormont snorted. “My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I’d believe that before I’d believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I’ve not seen any giant bears.” He gave Jon a long, searching look. “But we were speaking of hands. How is yours?”

I think some Mormont women occasionally happen to have the gift which comes from their CotF ancestors. This may not be so clear before TWOIAF but we have another perfect example from TWOIAF.

ROSE OF RED LAKE, a skinchanger, able to transform into a crane at will— a power some say still manifests from time to time in the women of House Crane, her descendants.

House Crane of Red Lake can still produce skinchangers. So, how did the Crane ancestor acquire CotF ancestry?

BRANDON OF THE BLOODY BLADE, who drove the giants from the Reach and warred against the children of the forest, slaying so many at Blue Lake that it has been known as Red Lake ever since.

Of course, the first impression about this bit says nothing about how the Cranes of Red Lake came to have CotF blood especially after Brandon of the Bloody Blade (who was said to be the ancestor of Starks) supposedly exterminated the CotF at Red Lake.

That is so until you remember the metaphor about the bloody blade of another Brandon Stark:

“Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. ‘I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman’s cunt,’ he used to say. And how he loved to use it. ‘A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,’ he told me once.”

“You knew him,” Theon said.

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. “Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Therefore, the truth is that Brandon of the Bloody Blade impregnated a lot of CotF at Red Lake (which was Blue Lake before him) and most of them died while giving birth to his children.

He [Winged Knight – a figure from the Age of Heroes] counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

Because of obvious biological reasons, giving birth to babies fathered by humans is very dangerous (even lethal) for female CotF. That is how Brandon of the Bloody Blade “slew” those CotF and that is how he acquired his nickname. So, House Crane of Red Lake was descended from the progeny of Brandon of the Bloody Blade and CotF that remained at the place.

[LmL]

Hey Mithras Stoneborn! Love your work man. Read a few of your essays, they're always terrific. Many are about the same stuff I am drawn too. Anyway. I tend to agree the Lengii are probably hybrids, and I agree with everything you laid out, almost. As for the Lengii, they large golden eyes than can see in the dark sound like the COTF, but clearly the Lengii build cities and don't live in caves. The Deep Ones MIGHT be the COTF analog, if there is such a thing (remember norse myth has light and dark elves, and if the weirwoods have an analog in the warlock trees, the COTF might have an analog). They also might just live down there, and the Lengii came to live there after and just prayed to them a little, and they are just a tall COTF hybrid. Makes me think of Sarnor, the other very extremely tall people we see (similar coloring the Lengii, but black eyes) and their legendary hero, the amazing Huzor Amai (gosh that sounds like "Azor Ahai"), who consolidated his empire by taking a wife from three different races. His Cymmeri wife, who made his armor, was from Cymer, which is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the woods Walker forest. So that's your mechanism - Lengii are descended from a pre-Sarnori consolidation race that diddled some woods walkers.

I'm right there with you on your analysis of the Crannogmen. Once slight variation on your idea about the bloody blade being an analog for impregnation - it was both a massacre and impregnation. Read the story of the "war of the wolves," where a King in the North defeated the Warg King at Sea Dragon Point, massacred all his beats and greenseers, AND TOOK THEIR WOMEN AS WIVES. That's where the stark warging comes from, in all likelihood, and it explains how Brandon of the Bloody Blade did commit a massacre (which may have enabled some blood magic) and also impregnate (and often kill, as you say) COTF females.

One other potential twist: it wasn't a massacre, but a sacrifice, like that on the isle of faces or at grey water. It's important to remember that any massacre of CotF could be a sacrifice, misremembered, and vise versa. (Hello, Nissa Nissa!) I think blood sacrifices are necessary to creat wards, such as the one guarding Storms end, or the ones protecting BR's cave. The bones, look at the bones!!

[Mithras]

Hey Mithras Stoneborn! Love your work man. Read a few of your essays, they're always terrific. Many are about the same stuff I am drawn too. Anyway. I tend to agree the Lengii are probably hybrids, and I agree with everything you laid out, almost. As for the Lengii, they large golden eyes than can see in the dark sound like the COTF, but clearly the Lengii build cities and don't live in caves. The Deep Ones MIGHT be the COTF analog, if there is such a thing (remember norse myth has light and dark elves, and if the weirwoods have an analog in the warlock trees, the COTF might have an analog). They also might just live down there, and the Lengii came to live there after and just prayed to them a little, and they are just a tall COTF hybrid. Makes me think of Sarnor, the other very extremely tall people we see (similar coloring the Lengii, but black eyes) and their legendary hero, the amazing Huzor Amai (gosh that sounds like "Azor Ahai"), who consolidated his empire by taking a wife from three different races. His Cymmeri wife, who made his armor, was from Cymer, which is RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the woods Walker forest. So that's your mechanism - Lengii are descended from a pre-Sarnori consolidation race that diddled some woods walkers.

I'm right there with you on your analysis of the Crannogmen. Once slight variation on your idea about the bloody blade being an analog for impregnation - it was both a massacre and impregnation. Read the story of the "war of the wolves," where a King in the North defeated the Warg King at Sea Dragon Point, massacred all his beats and greenseers, AND TOOK THEIR WOMEN AS WIVES. That's where the stark warging comes from, in all likelihood, and it explains how Brandon of the Bloody Blade did commit a massacre (which may have enabled some blood magic) and also impregnate (and often kill, as you say) COTF females.

One other potential twist: it wasn't a massacre, but a sacrifice, like that on the isle of faces or at grey water. It's important to remember that any massacre of CotF could be a sacrifice, misremembered, and vise versa. (Hello, Nissa Nissa!) I think blood sacrifices are necessary to creat wards, such as the one guarding Storms end, or the ones protecting BR's cave. The bones, look at the bones!!

Thanks. The reconciliation of ancient legends is what fascinates me. That is the most fun part of TWOIAF IMO.

In the other thread, I considered the possibility that Brandon Bloody Blade might have lived during the CotF-First Men wars. He might be a conqueror who claimed the daughters-wives of the defeated CotF as prizes.

I also considered another possibility there. Brandon Bloody Blade indeed might have lived before the Pact but perhaps he was of the wiser First Men. We know that wiser people from both races led the way to the Pact. So, perhaps Brandon and his followers came to an agreement with the faction of the wise CotF who also wanted an end to the war. And they decided to intermarry and produce hybrid offspring that would be sympathetic to both races and end the war.

We know that the First Men embraced the Faith in the South and the mechanism for this change of faith was intermarriages between Andals and First Men. We also know that the First Men abandoned their original Faith and embraced the Old Gods of the CotF. So, intermarriages between humans and CotF might be the mechanism for this religious shift after the signing of the Pact.

[LmL]

I also considered another possibility there. Brandon Bloody Blade indeed might have lived before the Pact but perhaps he was of the wiser First Men. We know that wiser people from both races led the way to the Pact. So, perhaps Brandon and his followers came to an agreement with the faction of the wise CotF who also wanted an end to the war. And they decided to intermarry and produce hybrid offspring that would be sympathetic to both races and end the war.

We know that the First Men embraced the Faith in the South and the mechanism for this change of faith was intermarriages between Andals and First Men. We also know that the First Men abandoned their original Faith and embraced the Old Gods of the CotF. So, intermarriages between humans and CotF might be the mechanism for this religious shift after the signing of the Pact.

Bingo. That's it - I think you nailed it. Brandon the Bloody Blade is rumored to be the father or g-father of B the Builder - who you think may be a half-CotF hybrid. That all fits. Either the Blade's son was wiser and sued for peace - peace often comes to stalemated wars when there's a change in leadership on one side - and the Builder was the Blade's grandson. You're absolutely right about the intermarriage being the mechanism by which the F Men adopted the Old Gods. In all likelihood, most first men families have COTF blood, if not all. In fact, the first men may not have had dark hair at all - that may be due to the CotF blood (they're "dark and beautiful). This opens up possibilities for the origin of the FM quite a bit.

[LmL]

Whoa we totally missed something: (from the wiki)

The people of the island are called Naathi. They are called the Peaceful People, due to their belief in extreme pacifism. They make music rather than war and kill nothing, not even animals, eating only fruit and never flesh. They are widely sought after by slavers who consider them to make the best slaves.[3]

Naathi have a unique look to them with flat faces, dark skin and golden eyes.[3]

Culture

The Naath believe in one god, the Lord of Harmony, who has existed and will exist for all time. He is the source of creation.[4]

First of all, golden eyes. CotF. Or, whoever the Lengii diddled, if it wasn't the COTF, which I think it probably was. Second, all the talk of balance and making a song, not war. It fits with the earth aspect being the balancing element idea.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

People should stop with the idea that "golden eyes= cotf".

[walkingWITHcersei]

We have proto-valaryans why not proto-cotf? There's certainly some connection between the children and ifequevron.

[LmL]

People should stop with the idea that "golden eyes= cotf".

What's your reasoning?

[TheSovereignGrave]

What's your reasoning?

There's people in real life whose eyes could be considering 'gold' and I'm 100% certain it's not because they're descended from CotF.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Who has gold eyes in real life? Purple is real but I have never heard of large golden eyes.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Who has gold eyes in real life? Purple is real but I have never heard of large golden eyes.

Amber eyes can look gold. Granted, it's not an exceptionally common colour in real life but this is fantasy and it being common in one group or another isn't outside the realm of possibility.

[LmL]

Amber eyes can look gold. Granted, it's not an exceptionally common colour in real life but this is fantasy and it being common in one group or another isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Well I certainly agree that just because something looks to be so (golden eyes means CotF) doesn't mean it is, as George likes to deliberately mislead us. But when he does, he always gives a clue that something is inverted - at least that's what I am seeing. I think the mystery of the interbreeding in ancient times is meant to be puzzled out, and I think the CotF interbreeding with men is literally all over TWOAIF. We are also shown that the giants and CotF were probably everywhere in ancient times, just as we are told dragons were. We know the CotF interbred with many humans on Wetseros, so it's illogical seeming to think they didn't do it elsewhere, IMO. There certainly plenty of other hints that the Naathi, Lengii, and CotF have things in common other than golden eyes - and not just shiny amber, they're described as extra large and able to see long distances in the dark.

Anyway, we can't assume anything, I agree on that. So, if you don't think they are related, what's you logic? Whats your evidence? Their's a school of thought out there, it seems, that nothing in ASOIAF really means anything more than it appears and everything is mundane - there is no Azor Ahai reborn, the prophesies don't mean jack, etc etc. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I just don't buy this line of thought at all. I think it's just the opposite - every symbol has as many meanings and incarnations as George can possibly cram in there. Lightbringer was about 5 different things, in my opinion, and all of them were manifestations of a single idea that played out on different levels.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

We have proto-valaryans why not proto-cotf? There's certainly some connection between the children and ifequevron.

We have proto-Asshai'i at best, not proto-Valyrians.

What's your reasoning?

Because it's getting ridiculous. Yes, I believe that wood walkers were cotf. But Naathi? Lengii? Hell, no.

I think Lengii exist because having the world's most beautiful people as white people is racist, so they exist as a parallel to Valyrians; unwordly beautiful with exotic eye colors, and somehow connected with magic.

Red eyes won't work with dark skin, green/blue/brown eyes are regular, white is creepy, so it's golden.

It's Lengii that can see better in darkness, not Naathi, they don't have a trait like that.

Naathi and Lengii can be mysterious without cotf ancestry. Like why do everyone except Naathi dies on Naath? What are the Old Ones? Who built the underground cities?

"Golden eyes" are not that big of a hint imo, the children can have green and red eyes too. Not to mention the cotf's eyes are like cat eyes, they don't look like human eyes and as far as I can tell Missandei's eyes are not like that.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Well I certainly agree that just because something looks to be so (golden eyes means CotF) doesn't mean it is, as George likes to deliberately mislead us. But when he does, he always gives a clue that something is inverted - at least that's what I am seeing. I think the mystery of the interbreeding in ancient times is meant to be puzzled out, and I think the CotF interbreeding with men is literally all over TWOAIF. We are also shown that the giants and CotF were probably everywhere in ancient times, just as we are told dragons were. We know the CotF interbred with many humans on Wetseros, so it's illogical seeming to think they didn't do it elsewhere, IMO. There certainly plenty of other hints that the Naathi, Lengii, and CotF have things in common other than golden eyes - and not just shiny amber, they're described as extra large and able to see long distances in the dark.

Anyway, we can't assume anything, I agree on that. So, if you don't think they are related, what's you logic? Whats your evidence? Their's a school of thought out there, it seems, that nothing in ASOIAF really means anything more than it appears and everything is mundane - there is no Azor Ahai reborn, the prophesies don't mean jack, etc etc. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I just don't buy this line of thought at all. I think it's just the opposite - every symbol has as many meanings and incarnations as George can possibly cram in there. Lightbringer was about 5 different things, in my opinion, and all of them were manifestations of a single idea that played out on different levels.

The only thing that really points to the Naathi being descended from CotF is the golden eyes; they're not even mentioned as supposedly being able to see in the dark like the Lengii. As for the Lengii, I suppose it's possible the Old Ones are some kind of CotF analogue, but I don't actually believe it since the only thing that points to it is the eyes of the Lengii. I think gold was just chosen since it's a strange and exotic colour that doesn't look too freaky.

But the point is, automatically equating golden eyes with CotF ancestry doesn't really make any sense.

[LmL]

The only thing that really points to the Naathi being descended from CotF is the golden eyes; they're not even mentioned as supposedly being able to see in the dark like the Lengii. As for the Lengii, I suppose it's possible the Old Ones are some kind of CotF analogue, but I don't actually believe it since the only thing that points to it is the eyes of the Lengii. I think gold was just chosen since it's a strange and exotic colour that doesn't look too freaky.

But the point is, automatically equating golden eyes with CotF ancestry doesn't really make any sense.

Ok, see if you can follow this logic:

Weirwoods are at the heart of the CotF magic. The COTF go "into the rocks and trees and stone" when they die, right? They live underground - they represent the element earth, I believe. The balancing force in the center of the oppositional forces - Ice and Fire, Dark and Light, Sea and storm. The Weirwoods have an analog in the Warlock Trees - those are black trunks with blue leaves, instead of white trunks with red leaves. The weirwoods allow a greenseer to live an extended life - the Warlock trees have an extended unlife. If the Weirwoods have an analog (as opposed to an opposite, like fire is the opposite of ice), then the CotF might also have an analog. MIGHT, I'm not certain of it, I'm just on the look out for it. A analog to the COTF, but different somehow. Perhaps tall elves, instead of short ones? And then we have these tall ass people with the Golden Eyes and night vision, and wouldn't you know it, they're also secretive, are associated with underground habitations (CotF live in natural caves, the Old Ones live in man made caves, "an underground city"). And the massacres of foreigners on Lengii COULD be some sort of blood sacrifice.

It's not ironclad, by any means, I'm just looking for those COTF analogs, which may not exist, admittedly.

[Reginald blackfield]

Ok, see if you can follow this logic:

Weirwoods are at the heart of the CotF magic. The COTF go "into the rocks and trees and stone" when they die, right? They live underground - they represent the element earth, I believe. The balancing force in the center of the oppositional forces - Ice and Fire, Dark and Light, Sea and storm. The Weirwoods have an analog in the Warlock Trees - those are black trunks with blue leaves, instead of white trunks with red leaves. The weirwoods allow a greenseer to live an extended life - the Warlock trees have an extended unlife. If the Weirwoods have an analog (as opposed to an opposite, like fire is the opposite of ice), then the CotF might also have an analog. MIGHT, I'm not certain of it, I'm just on the look out for it. A analog to the COTF, but different somehow. Perhaps tall elves, instead of short ones? And then we have these tall ass people with the Golden Eyes and night vision, and wouldn't you know it, they're also secretive, are associated with underground habitations (CotF live in natural caves, the Old Ones live in man made caves, "an underground city"). And the massacres of foreigners on Lengii COULD be some sort of blood sacrifice.

It's not ironclad, by any means, I'm just looking for those COTF analogs, which may not exist, admittedly.

I think the analog to the CoTF would be the 'Pure' Others, those who are not corrupted Humans but instead are the corrupters, it is quite commonly believed that the Others are in some way connected to the Children of the Forest, I doubt an actual genetic relation but rather some sort of Supernatural or elemental relation, like what you said about the Children representing earth. The Others instead represent Ice, the Dragons fire, the Deep Ones or maybe Krakens water, dunno about air.

[LmL]

Seems like the opposite of the Others is dragons. Ice, fire. The CotF are definitely earth, and they seems like the balancing agent. If they have an analog, it will probably earth aspected as well.

[Reginald blackfield]

Seems like the opposite of the Others is dragons. Ice, fire. The CotF are definitely earth, and they seems like the balancing agent. If they have an analog, it will probably earth aspected as well.

Yes without question but Ice can still freeze earth.

[Mithras]

Yes without question but Ice can still freeze earth.

Nope.

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.