Southern Ambitions theory, is it valid or not?

[Mal Malenkirk]

EDIT DOUBLE POST

[Mal Malenkirk]

The Hand of the King, if there was some noble in Westeros who cared for learning and managing the economy. Since they find it a lesser task and are too busy getting hammered with practice swords in the courtyards, they can become victims of their own idiocy.

That about sums it up.

This kingdom deserves to be in ruin, but it's not just the people running it, it's structurally unsound.

It could be chalked down to GRRM not giving a damn about economical considerations, but I prefer the in-text explanation I've suggested before. The Targaryen set up their kingdom like a protection racket. They had no interest in governance and so handled the bare minimum of responsibilities, held direct control over the smallest kingdom and never made any effort to centralize, unfiy and develop their holdings. They were simply happy to collect their tributes under threat of dragonfire.

Then dragons died and things stumbled forward for a while because of inertia and the logic of 'game theory' (The prisoners were not talking!) but eventually it came crashing down as it had to.

Hopefully, when the mess is settled, they will be able to move forward with something more sensible.

[Lemorecake]

One of the key pieces of Stefan's theory was that the heads of House Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Tully, etc. all met during the War of Ninepenny Kings and became buddies and concerned that the Targaryen monarchy needed fixing

I really think all the great houses were concerned, but the whole marriage/fostering-thing shouldn´t be overestimated. Looking back on real history, european noble houses always tried to keep strong ties (e.g. House of Habsburg).

Lady Dustin may be a hint to question the motivation of other maesters we already know. Instead of a maester-masterplot, there may just be some old family-loyalties.

[George48]

The theory itself is crackpot and the primary source in the books is unreliable (Dustin).

Rickard just was more interested in the South and acted like a normal feudal lord.

Also, there is way too many theories that talk about grand conspiracies.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

You can say every theory is "valid" until proven untrue since they are just theories nothing is sure about them simply educated guesses if i may say so for some. For this one man who knows, but they was a massive power move he was making. Similar to Egg trying to marry all his kids to lord paramount houses, but alas just like with egg someone had to fuck it up. Still doubt he wanted to over throw the Targs the IT still has it's appeal and benefits the guy just wanted more influence and power.

[Vikingkingq]

I really think all the great houses were concerned, but the whole marriage/fostering-thing shouldn´t be overestimated. Looking back on real history, european noble houses always tried to keep strong ties (e.g. House of Habsburg).

Lady Dustin may be a hint to question the motivation of other maesters we already know. Instead of a maester-masterplot, there may just be some old family-loyalties.

Except the problem with saying it's all normal is that the typical pattern is not Great Houses marrying Great Houses - Great Houses typically marry among their vassals to keep them vying for their favor and to strengthen bonds of loyalty. Look at the Starks - in over a hundred years, not one case of a Great House. They marry Lockes, Glovers, Karstarks, Norreys, Manderlys, Ryswells, Fenns, Cerwyns, Royces, Blackwoods, Rogers, Flints, and Umbers, but no Great House until Rickard's children. Likewise, the Lannisters marry Braxes, Farmans, Webbers, Kyndals, Marbrands, Crakehalls, Swyfts, Freys, Darrys, Leffords, Jasts, Presters, Stackspears, Farmans, and Reynes. No Great House until Tywin's children - at least since the time of The Grey Lion, who died ninety years before the current day.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Seems clear to me that the only reason for so few marriages inter-Great Houses is simply for plot reasons: if Mace Tyrell has a Baratheon mother or grandmother, seems hard to believe he wouldn't fight for Robert; if Jon Arryn has a Stark mother or wife, there's no need for Ned to be fostered there to increase ties, etc.

In the Riverlands case, sounds specially unbelievable that Hoster Tully is the first lord that that thought it would be a good idea for his children to marry the children of another LPs to avoid their lands to be invaded and/or used as battleground for whatever war the other LPs want to fight.

[juanml82]

Seems clear to me that the only reason for so few marriages inter-Great Houses is simply for plot reasons: if Mace Tyrell has a Baratheon mother or grandmother, seems hard to believe he wouldn't fight for Robert; if Jon Arryn has a Stark mother or wife, there's no need for Ned to be fostered there to increase ties, etc.

In the Riverlands case, sounds specially unbelievable that Hoster Tully is the first lord that that thought it would be a good idea for his children to marry the children of another LPs to avoid their lands to be invaded and/or used as battleground for whatever war the other LPs want to fight.

First you have an issue of world building. Westeros works as long as the vassals are divided. The moment they unite and form a strong block, they may decide they don't want their liege anymore.

Second, yes, it's reasonably to think that Tullys other than Hoster married into powerful houses outside the Riverlands and maybe one Lord Paramount. But Rickard et all built an entire network for marriages and fostering.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I don't see this as being anything even remotely important. It's all speculation, no facts whatsoever besides some marriage pacts and a rumor uttered by a woman with an axe to grind.

[Annara Snow]

Seems clear to me that the only reason for so few marriages inter-Great Houses is simply for plot reasons: if Mace Tyrell has a Baratheon mother or grandmother, seems hard to believe he wouldn't fight for Robert; if Jon Arryn has a Stark mother or wife, there's no need for Ned to be fostered there to increase ties, etc.

In the Riverlands case, sounds specially unbelievable that Hoster Tully is the first lord that that thought it would be a good idea for his children to marry the children of another LPs to avoid their lands to be invaded and/or used as battleground for whatever war the other LPs want to fight.

I don't see how that Doylist criticism is relevant to this very Watsonian discussion. Whatever reasons GRRM had to establish that Great Houses don't normally intermarry, he has done it. The text is what it is.