Speculating about Septon Barth's notions

[Lord Varys]

My point is that there is simply no proof that the Azor Ahai from Votar's Jade Compendium has anything whatsoever to do with the historic Last Hero of Westeros.

My take on this is that Azor Ahai (and Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Eldric, etc.) were all heroes of the Eastern cultures which were praised for ending the Long Night whether they actual did it or not. Nothing whatsoever suggests that advanced cultures in the Far East did (or would) worship/honor some unwashed savage from the far end of the world as their very own cultural hero (and Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, etc.) really seem to be cultural heroes rather than multiple name for the same historic person.

[Mithras]

thats certainly interesting (i also believe Melisandre will cast a shadow dragon), but if so, then you must explain all these dragonbones from the Dawn Age.

The maesters do not have carbon dating, so they cannot know when did those dragons live.

[Mithras]

My point is that there is simply no proof that the Azor Ahai from Votar's Jade Compendium has anything whatsoever to do with the historic Last Hero of Westeros.

My take on this is that Azor Ahai (and Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Eldric, etc.) were all heroes of the Eastern cultures which were praised for ending the Long Night whether they actual did it or not. Nothing whatsoever suggests that advanced cultures in the Far East did (or would) worship/honor some unwashed savage from the far end of the world as their very own cultural hero (and Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, etc.) really seem to be cultural heroes rather than multiple name for the same historic person.

Actually, the similarity of their tales as Lord too fat explained does suggest that they are connected somehow.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The maesters do not have carbon dating, so they cannot know when did those dragons live.

then why do the seem to have certainty that those dragons are from before the time of Valyria?

[Mithras]

then why do the seem to have certainty that those dragons are from before the time of Valyria?

Because they cannot imagine dragons existing before the Valyrians. As we see, Yandel completely dismisses the idea of Asshai having dragons once since they didnot conquer the world as it happens.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Because they cannot imagine dragons existing before the Valyrians. As we see, Yandel completely dismisses the idea of Asshai having dragons once since they didnot conquer the world as it happens.

But they do.

I mean, its actually the counterargument to Barth´s idea of Interbreeding.

How come Dragons were created by Valyria if Maesters have evidence of dragons from the Dawn Age?

In Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon’s Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

and IIRC GRRM said once dragons existed all over the world.

So clearly they werent created by VAlyria... but that doesn´t mean Barth is completly wrong,

one possibility is that they were created by proto-asshaiís..

[Mithras]

But they do.

I mean, its actually the counterargument to Barth´s idea of Interbreeding.

How come Dragons were created by Valyria if Maesters have evidence of dragons from the Dawn Age?

which is why it should be wrong. I don't think they have evidences of what they claim against the Unnatural. And do not forget that Barth's book was banned and the Citadel has an anti-dragon agenda.

and IIRC GRRM said once dragons existed all over the world.

So clearly they werent created by VAlyria... but that doesn´t mean Barth is completly wrong,

one possibility is that they were created by proto-asshaiís..

George didnot specify that whether those dragons were Valyrian dragons or a different race of dragons.

Maybe he was talking about the Ice Dragons and the Long Night. During the Long Night, it is possible that the Ice Dragons soared all over the world.

[Erza Whitewalker]

I don't want to quote everything back but just agree with Lord Varys. It is possible that we're dealing with one individual translated into widespread civilizations but I'd be leery of being certain of it.

Besides, the Jade Compendium account also resembles the destruction of the WW by Sam the Slayer. Maybe AA slew an Ice dragon or a WW. Speculation is fun but we don't have all the facts ...yet.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

I think that the Lands of Always Winter overlap the North Pole, and connect to Eastern Essos somewhere north of Asshai and Yi Ti. That would explain the various legends of the Long Night and account for traditions of it on opposite sides of the world. If you're starting (as the Others) from the North Pole, every direction is south. So, an expansion of Others/Ice/Winter could have affected both Westeros and far eastern Essos at the same time.

[Elessar]

But GRRM says (in a 1999 interview) that the only land connected to the far north is Westeros, northern Essos is separated by an arctic sea.

[Clueless Northman]

It is now becoming clearer that the Valyrias didnot pop out to existence 5000 years ago. More like they started to grow to power after the LN 8000 years ago. And there is even a proto-Valyrian race that visited Westeros even before the First Men came.

Or rather, odds are that neither of these is that old, and we can cut back the Long Night by 2 or 3.000 years without a problem.

[Hrafntýr]

@ Ramsay's Penguins: I saw that Michele Clapton bit on the WWs, too. She said this about them:

And while the White Walkers have an armor of sorts, Clapton told us that it’s all found materials, “part of sculptures and architectures that they reused as armor,” nothing they made themselves. “The idea was that they maybe discovered an ancient society that was actually very sophisticated, but the leather bits were all kind of eaten away. That wouldn’t have survived.”

Obviously show is not canon, but it was quite an intriguing tidbit in light of the suggestions of ancient races that we get in TWoIaF.

The fused stone of the base of the Hightower fits in here, too, implying Valyrian-like ability to harness fire, but without the aesthetic trademarks of later Valyrian culture. The structure has "always" been there, just as the island on which it sits has "always" been called Battle Island. Which battle, between whom? Did proto-Valyrians visit Westeros, and learn from some other culture the means of harnessing fire, or firewyrms? I've long thought that the Children harnessed firewyrms to effect the smashing of the Arm of Dorne and the Hammer of the Waters (I also think the firewyrms are the "sleeping giants" awakened); the dragonbond is not utterly unlike a skinchanger's link to the creatures he or she enters. Could the proto-Valyrians have learned something in Westeros? Alternatively, perhaps it is all, including dragons, from Asshai, and in the far, far distant past there was contact between the Asshaii and the Children, and the battle referenced in Battle Island was between the Children and some ancient Asshai civilization with dragons (Dany does think that dragons came from Asshai), but the Children skinchanged the dragons during the battle, thus bringing dragons to Westeros. Heck, for all we know, dragons came from beyond the Sunset Sea, arriving first in Westeros, and then being taken further east.

Also: the title of Barth's book states that dragons, wyrms and wyverns have an unnatural history. I'm inclined to believe that dragons are the result of interbreeding of firewyrms and wyverns, but are firewyrms and wyverns themselves unnatural species, i.e. not the product of natural evolution? Leaf doesn't list them among the old races or species who are dwindling in the age of humans.

Sorry, I know this is a mishmash of disconnected speculations, but I'm really fascinated by the hints about ancient civilizations in Westeros before the First Men.

[Mithras]

Or rather, odds are that neither of these is that old, and we can cut back the Long Night by 2 or 3.000 years without a problem.

Long Night and the arrival of the Andals were set in stone in AGoT. However, only in the later books, George thought that he should not be too precise with ancient events. That is why he produced conflicting accounts in the later books including TWOIAF but the original information is true. The LN was 8000 years ago and the Andals came 6000 years ago.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

that way turn out to be false. In fact, I think George has already changed that...

[Mithras]

I can't see why the canon timeline turned out to be false.

In addition, there is a very clear hint dropped by George to confirm it.

In Dany's last chapter, she comes to a wall which she likenes to the Wall. She observes the remains of 8 hovels around, each representing a millennia.

[GottfreyUndRoy]

Long Night and the arrival of the Andals were set in stone in AGoT. However, only in the later books, George thought that he should not be too precise with ancient events. That is why he produced conflicting accounts in the later books including TWOIAF but the original information is true. The LN was 8000 years ago and the Andals came 6000 years ago.

Bullcrap. It's because they're estimates. You saying that the date in the first book is the only correct one is not backed up by anything.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

@ Ramsay's Penguins: I saw that Michele Clapton bit on the WWs, too. She said this about them:

And while the White Walkers have an armor of sorts, Clapton told us that it’s all found materials, “part of sculptures and architectures that they reused as armor,” nothing they made themselves. “The idea was that they maybe discovered an ancient society that was actually very sophisticated, but the leather bits were all kind of eaten away. That wouldn’t have survived.”

Obviously show is not canon, but it was quite an intriguing tidbit in light of the suggestions of ancient races that we get in TWoIaF.

The fused stone of the base of the Hightower fits in here, too, implying Valyrian-like ability to harness fire, but without the aesthetic trademarks of later Valyrian culture. The structure has "always" been there, just as the island on which it sits has "always" been called Battle Island. Which battle, between whom? Did proto-Valyrians visit Westeros, and learn from some other culture the means of harnessing fire, or firewyrms? I've long thought that the Children harnessed firewyrms to effect the smashing of the Arm of Dorne and the Hammer of the Waters (I also think the firewyrms are the "sleeping giants" awakened); the dragonbond is not utterly unlike a skinchanger's link to the creatures he or she enters. Could the proto-Valyrians have learned something in Westeros? Alternatively, perhaps it is all, including dragons, from Asshai, and in the far, far distant past there was contact between the Asshaii and the Children, and the battle referenced in Battle Island was between the Children and some ancient Asshai civilization with dragons (Dany does think that dragons came from Asshai), but the Children skinchanged the dragons during the battle, thus bringing dragons to Westeros. Heck, for all we know, dragons came from beyond the Sunset Sea, arriving first in Westeros, and then being taken further east.

Also: the title of Barth's book states that dragons, wyrms and wyverns have an unnatural history. I'm inclined to believe that dragons are the result of interbreeding of firewyrms and wyverns, but are firewyrms and wyverns themselves unnatural species, i.e. not the product of natural evolution? Leaf doesn't list them among the old races or species who are dwindling in the age of humans.

Sorry, I know this is a mishmash of disconnected speculations, but I'm really fascinated by the hints about ancient civilizations in Westeros before the First Men.

Yes that was the quote. Thanks a lot. While the outfits aren't always consistent with the books (not a big deal) I think there is a reason that they were designed that way. Leather suggests land dwellers, but seal skins and the such can too so maybe WW did something with the merlings after they left. I definitely think some sort of merfolk existed.

Good point about Leaf, but she didn't mention other species too, such as Merfolk and kraken iirc, and they surely exist. Dragons are hard to miss, so I do think Asshai breeding of wyrms and wyverns. The location of theses two species has Asshai in the middle.

I've never gave much thought to Proto-Valyrians tbh, because weren't they just farmers? But I think Battle Isle is simply from the pirate lord that occupied Oldtown (before the Hightowers? Why would they let a pirate live in their city) or from one of the three times Oldtown was sacked. Unless Dayne's and Hightowers are protos and way more ancient.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I've never gave much thought to Proto-Valyrians tbh, because weren't they just farmers? But I think Battle Isle is simply from the pirate lord that occupied Oldtown (before the Hightowers? Why would they let a pirate live in their city) or from one of the three times Oldtown was sacked. Unless Dayne's and Hightowers are protos and way more ancient.

By Proto-Valyrian, they are talking about the ancient people from the Shadow Lands who are said to be the first dragonriders, they also teached how to ride dragons to the Valyrians and then vanished from history. They are so ancient that they don't even have a name. So I prefer to call them The Nameless People but, well, posters seem to prefer Proto-Valyrian.

But you're right, Valyrians were shepherds before riding dragons.

I think it was Valyrians who mated wyrms and wyverns to make dragons, not the nameless people. I still think the original dragons were wiped out by something else. Mayhaps, it was the same thing that destroyed Deep Ones' building and stuff.

[Erza Whitewalker]

I can't see why the canon timeline turned out to be false.

In addition, there is a very clear hint dropped by George to confirm it.

In Dany's last chapter, she comes to a wall which she likenes to the Wall. She observes the remains of 8 hovels around, each representing a millennia.

Or it's the Wall with 7 kingdoms and the Riverlands - meaning Dany's going on to "making the eight" as Robert bragged in the show. Honestly, one interpretation before a confirmation does not a fact make.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

By Proto-Valyrian, they are talking about the ancient people from the Shadow Lands who are said to be the first dragonriders, they also teached how to ride dragons to the Valyrians and then vanished from history. They are so ancient that they don't even have a name. So I prefer to call them The Nameless People but, well, posters seem to prefer Proto-Valyrian.

But you're right, Valyrians were shepherds before riding dragons.

I think it was Valyrians who mated wyrms and wyverns to make dragons, not the nameless people. I still think the original dragons were wiped out by something else. Mayhaps, it was the same thing that destroyed Deep Ones' building and stuff.

Ahh ok now I understand many thanks.

I'd imagine the eradication of the Deep Ones was magical. Maybe even the Long Night (freezing oceans etc.). And ironborn descend from First Men taken as thralls by Deep Ones, and took over once the Deepies froze?

So would you say the Nameless Peoplle are the Asshai'i? Or the same people as the Dayne's and Hightowers?

I think I saw further up that the original dragons were ice dragons, and protos bred wyrms and wyverns to form fire dragons. It fits with GRRM less convential fantasy species.