Should brothels be banned?

[ChillyPolly]

I'm probably one of the few anti-prostitution people on this forum.

I have no strong opinions about exactly how far, as a matter of policy, prosecutors should go in pursuing prostitutes and/or pimps. I do think, at the very least, it should be illegal, even if not vigorously pursued.

But one thing I am sure of. No woman (who has a choice - mostly they don't) should choose to be a prostitute. "Professional homewrecker" is not an honorable profession. Meanwhile, and perhaps especially, no man should ever patronize a prostitute. Find your own girl, and take responsibility for how you treat her. Or go without. Otherwise, 9 times out of 10 or better, you are paying evil pimps to abuse and degrade women. And I don't care what stupid fantasies you have cooked up about how prostitutes will become well treated if the profession is legalized. I don't believe it for a minute, and neither should you. Even if legalization does somehow make things marginally better for them (as opposed to merely creating more victims and permitting the government to take a cut) you should still be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Don't patronize prostitutes and do not be one yourself.

[Bryanfury]

Im glad the moral police has arrived to tell everyone else what morals to live by

[ChillyPolly]

Bryanfury, I am just a parrot, and have no "police power" to force you do do anything you don't want to do, or stop you from doing anything you want to do. I am merely saying that men who patronize prostitutes cause serious harm to other people. I realize and accept that this does not matter to many people, perhaps including you.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm probably one of the few anti-prostitution people on this forum.

I have no strong opinions about exactly how far, as a matter of policy, prosecutors should go in pursuing prostitutes and/or pimps. I do think, at the very least, it should be illegal, even if not vigorously pursued.

But one thing I am sure of. No woman (who has a choice - mostly they don't) should choose to be a prostitute. "Professional homewrecker" is not an honorable profession. Meanwhile, and perhaps especially, no man should ever patronize a prostitute. Find your own girl, and take responsibility for how you treat her. Or go without. Otherwise, 9 times out of 10 or better, you are paying evil pimps to abuse and degrade women. And I don't care what stupid fantasies you have cooked up about how prostitutes will become well treated if the profession is legalized. I don't believe it for a minute, and neither should you. Even if legalization does somehow make things marginally better for them (as opposed to merely creating more victims and permitting the government to take a cut) you should still be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Don't patronize prostitutes and do not be one yourself.

Woah and yikes.

[Bryanfury]

I think attitudes like yours cause just as much harm by marginalising people based on your own moral perceptions when there's every chance no harm is being caused by their choices at all.

It ain't a flawless system. Nothing in our society is. But I'd rather prostitution be legal, regulated, and the girls having actual protection and rights in the eyes of the law and government than have everything swept under a rug and having the girls truly put in danger, exploited etc. Cause realistically, if we take a "No, it's wrong and immoral, criminalise it!" stance, it'll still happen but with far less rights and protection for those involved. The problem is you outright dismiss this based on.. Well, as far as I can tell, a backseat understanding of what happens. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's far worse to be illegal and that's just a fact. Legalisation is what removes those "evil pimps", you know.

And I'm sure some prostitutes would appreciate your concern, others would tell you to stop sticking your nose in and calling them professional home wreckers just cause you find paid sex morally abhorrent. End of the day, it's their choice to have sex for money, and they' prefer safety nets to having to act illegally, I'm sure

ETA: you 'merely' said no woman should have the right to choose to be a prostitute, and no one should have the right to use one either. Thats a bit more than "don't patronise them".

[ChillyPolly]

I think attitudes like yours cause just as much harm by marginalising people based on your own moral perceptions when there's every chance no harm is being caused by their choices at all.

It ain't a flawless system. Nothing in our society is. But I'd rather prostitution be legal, regulated, and the girls having actual protection and rights in the eyes of the law and government than have everything swept under a rug and having the girls truly put in danger, exploited etc. Cause realistically, if we take a "No, it's wrong and immoral, criminalise it!" stance, it'll still happen but with far less rights and protection for those involved. The problem is you outright dismiss this based on.. Well, as far as I can tell, a backseat understanding of what happens. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's far worse to be illegal and that's just a fact. Legalisation is what removes those "evil pimps", you know.

My main point was, regardless of whether there is room for debate as to whether legalizing prostitution does more harm than good, was that no person should choose to be part of the problem. And anyone who does not see a serious problem (yes, even in places where it is legal) has their head in the sand.

And no, I do not "know" that legalization removes those evil pimps. I really don't think it does. And I don't think you know either. I doubt you have done much research on the subject. You merely seem to be reciting some doctrine you have heard.

[ChillyPolly]

Woah and yikes.

Is the idea that prostitution is bad really that radical an idea to you?

[ACVG]

I just wanted to jump in to say that while, yes the majority of prostitutes are women, there are male ones too.

Prostitution in westeros is legal, and everyone in KL started flipping out when Tyrion imposed his "penny poll tax" on all transactions. Imagine what an outright ban might do.

I love Stannis but this ban at this stage of civilization that Westeros is currently in isn't ready for this.

Then again when Alyssane banned the lords right to first night, there was outrage at first. But the commons loved her for it.

[Bryanfury]

My main point was, regardless of whether there is room for debate as to whether legalizing prostitution does more harm than good, was that no person should choose to be part of the problem.

And no, I do not "know" that legalization removes those evil pimps. I really don't think it does. And I don't think you know either. I doubt you have done much research on the subject. You merely seem to be reciting some doctrine you have heard.

And my point is your deeming it a problem is just as harmful.

And yes, legalisation does remove your "evil pimps". Legalisation gives sex workers the right to pick and choose their customers and rates, which is what our "evil pimps" have control of when it's illegal. The whole point of legalisation is to minimise exploitation and abuse...

I'm speaking from a position of some anecdote, yes, in that I know a number of sex workers here in NZ who have gone through the process of prostitution being illegal to decriminalisation to legalisation. I also live near an area renowned for gay sex workers, and in both cases legalisation has improved the circumstances for both and reduced cases of abuse. I'm telling you things are objectively worse for sex workers when prostitution is illegal, because thats the anecdotal experience I've had. Logically, it's pretty clear that it's safer to do something while it's legal than while it's not.

ETA: I think street solicitation should be illegal, because that's a lot harder to provide safety for despite its legality. Brothels and escort services however provide much more safety an rights because of their legality

[Lointain]

The real problem with prostitution is that the women (and men) are, in manny cases, under the yoke of a pimp (a criminal).

So, the only way to improve the situation of the prostitutes (male and female) is too make a long therm plan to turn prostitution in something legal and with full protection of the workers.

How can that be made? Hard treatment on the pimps (the Wall or beheading), legalization of prostitution (individually or in brothels) and taxing the business.

[ElizabethB.]

When you criminalize something that is in demand, then criminals take it over, but it definitely does not stop.

Outlawing anything that is in demand is stupid as it will still be sold and done. Only difference is, instead of the government getting their cut, the criminals in charge keep all the profit.

So Stannis was very wrong in this idea.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[ChillyPolly]

Outlawing it (as well as moral stigma) reduces the demand. Legalizing it increases the demand. The demand is the main source of the problem.

[Lointain]

Outlawing it (as well as moral stigma) reduces the demand. Legalizing it increases the demand. The demand is the main source of the problem.

Yah.

That is working pretty well with drugs.

Outlawing drugs is stoping the traffic and impoverishing the drug lords.

Legalizing drugs/prostitution, increasing the state control over the drugs/prostitution, will better protect the consumers/prostitutes, ruining the drug lords/pimps, decreasing violent criminality, while gaining more taxes to the state, taxes that can be used in a all kind of things: from manutention of public buildings to social protection of the more poor, here and in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Bryanfury]

Outlawing it (as well as moral stigma) reduces the demand. Legalizing it increases the demand. The demand is the main source of the problem.

Neither of those things reduce demand, or supply. Demand is not the main source of the problem (you are inherently calling prostitution a problem, when it is not), the main source of the problem is lack of safety and protection through illegality, plus moral stigma, with the actual problem being abuse an exploitation of sex workers.

Prostitution is not a problem. Abusing prostitutes is. I we want to reduce prostitute abuse we need to provide legal safety nets, not make prostitution illegal and slander it is immoral. Prostitution was illegal for a long time in many countries. This didn't stop the demand and supply.

[ChillyPolly]

Legalizing drugs/prostitution, increasing the state control over the drugs/prostitution, will better protect the consumers/prostitutes, ruining the drug lords/pimps, decreasing violent criminality, while gaining more taxes to the state, taxes that can be used in a all kind of things: from manutention of public buildings to social protection of the more poor, here and in the Seven Kingdoms.

It's been tried. It does not achieve any of these things except the increased tax revenues (which it does indeed achieve). What it causes is an huge increase in human trafficking to the jurisdictions where it has been legalized, and an increase in the government's cut from the exploitation.

[Bryanfury]

Laff. Its been tried? Criminalisation has been tried. It has never, and will never work.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm speaking from a position of some anecdote, yes, in that I know a number of sex workers here in NZ who have gone through the process of prostitution being illegal to decriminalisation to legalisation. I also live near an area renowned for gay sex workers, and in both cases legalisation has improved the circumstances for both and reduced cases of abuse. I'm telling you things are objectively worse for sex workers when prostitution is illegal, because thats the anecdotal experience I've had. Logically, it's pretty clear that it's safer to do something while it's legal than while it's not.

I have no strong opinions as to your "anecdotal" evidence regarding gay prostitutes in NZ. Firstly, I'm not sure gay prostitution works according to the exact same inherently unbalanced dynamic as the buying of women by men. Secondly, I'm not sure where you are getting your "anectotes" from, or in what context: most prostitutes are in the business of selling a fantasy to their customers, and the sex industry spends alot of money getting its message out.

[ChillyPolly]

Laff. Its been tried?

Huh? Yes. It's been tried.

[Bryanfury]

most prostitutes are in the business of selling a fantasy to their customers, and the sex industry spends alot of money getting its message out.

Your horrendous sexism aside, I'm speaking from a position of never having paid for sex and personally knowing prostitutes through family and friends. Most chose their profession (some felt no other choice), and those who were prostitutes before decriminalisation all agree it's much better now. Your trafficking claims relates to the abuse and exploitation of women outside the legal profession and is a flawed outlook because while decriminalisation was a method used to try reduce human trafficking, the reality is human trafficking is a different thing to prostitution and while human trafficking didn't see any decrease after decriminalisation, prostitute abuse and exploitation has seen a decrease. Unfortunately human trafficking will happen regardless of prostitution laws, and making prostitution illegal has not once had a positive effect on human trafficking.

And for the record, human trafficking and prostitution have been illegal for a vey long time, so why haven't they stopped and why did prostitution abuse generally decrease in counties where it was legalised?

[ChillyPolly]

Here's a number of articles. Not totally one-sided as to the pros and cons, but at least they expose that reality is more complex (if that is not an understatement) than Bryanfury's facile propaganda.

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

http://nypost.com/2014/06/10/germany-experiencing-brothel-boom-but-is-prostitution-safer/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26261221

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/30/german-brothels-illegal-feminists-fight-law-prostitution