Should brothels be banned?

[ChillyPolly]

Your horrendous sexism aside, I'm speaking from a position of never having paid for sex and personally knowing prostitutes through family and friends.

That's great. Please don't start.

I have no idea what you mean by "horrendous sexism". After all, I don't think Lesbian prostitution (which is nearly non-existent, statistically speaking) is driven by an enormous supply-demand imbalance either.

[Bryanfury]

All four articles are journalist articles about the same german brothel chain with only one actual study reference, the study which is not named but occurred either prior to or shortly after legalisation (it isn't made clear, intentionally I presume) says that 90% of German prostitutes at the time of the study were force into prostitution. The main concern in these articles is that German prostitutes aren't using some of the laws made for them, which speaks nothing about prostitution abuse. These aricles are essentially opinion pieces of the same problem in the same brothel chain with very little scholarly backing. I remain unimpressed, and will instead link you to several pro and con studies of a much wider view of prostitution than a technically unsourced bunch of internet journalism articles:

http://prostitution.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000122 - 6 research articles, 3 pro 3 con, and actually named instead of vaguely referenced

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/17/when-rhode-island-accidentally-legalized-prostitution-rape-and-stis-decreased-sharply/ - journalist article that references a study and names said study

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12147-007-9001-0 - study that points out prostitution doesnt cause human trafficking, exploitation of prostitution does (and hence legalisation is needed to reduce that exploitation).

Should I go on?

[ChillyPolly]

All four articles are journalist articles about the same german brothel chain with only one actual study reference, the study which is not named but occurred either prior to or shortly after legalisation (it isn't made clear, intentionally I presume) says that 90% of German prostitutes at the time of the study were force into prostitution. The main concern in these articles is that German prostitutes aren't using some of the laws made for them, which speaks nothing about prostitution abuse. These aricles are essentially opinion pieces of the same problem in the same brothel chain with very little scholarly backing. I remain unimpressed, and will instead link you to several pro and con studies of a much wider view of prostitution than a technically unsourced bunch of internet journalism articles:

http://prostitution.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000122 - 6 research articles, 3 pro 3 con, and actually named instead of vaguely referenced

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/17/when-rhode-island-accidentally-legalized-prostitution-rape-and-stis-decreased-sharply/ - journalist article that references a study and names said study

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12147-007-9001-0 - study that points out prostitution doesnt cause human trafficking, exploitation of prostitution does (and hence legalisation is needed to reduce that exploitation).

Should I go on?

No need. The links, some of which do not support your postition, confirm that you don't know what you are talking about. But if you want to continue to make a fool of yourself, by all means continue. I'm sure you can find more. After all, the sex industry has plenty of advertising money.

[Bryanfury]

No need. The links confirm that you don't know what you are talking about. But if you want to continue to make a fool of yourself, by all means continue. I'm sure you can find more. After all, the sex industry has plenty of advertising money.

Right, the sex industry has the power to identify randomly selected peer reviewers for papers they don't know are being written and bribe them all. You use flimsy journalism to back up your opinion and reject actual research, some of which backs your opinion, for no reason and instead just say I don't know what I'm talking about with no elaboration whatsoever. You can't be helped. Enjoy your fantasy world.

[ChillyPolly]

Right, the sex industry has the power to identify randomly selected peer reviewers for papers they don't know are being written and bribe them all.

WTF are you talking about???

[Bryanfury]

WTF are you talking about???

Something to highbrow for someone who apparently sees prostitution advertising everywhere

[ChillyPolly]

Something to highbrow for someone who apparently sees prostitution advertising everywhere

Umm... the sex industry has money. I have no idea what you mean by "everywhere".

[Bryanfury]

Ofc you don't ;)

[Lemonking]

Outlawing it (as well as moral stigma) reduces the demand. Legalizing it increases the demand. The demand is the main source of the problem.

What exactly is the problem? Prostitution or the abuse of prostitutes?

Legalizing prostitution in Germany, allowed them to have access to health/unemployment insurance, penisons, and legal protection. They have to pay taxes, which in turn gives them the ability to get a bank account and a credit score, which allows many prostitutes to get out of the job and open a buisness or become independent.

But it didn't stop human trafficking and other forms of illegal prostitution.

[Kiporman]

To the question of the topic... as much as I would want to say “yes”, the answer is no. Considering Westeros, if the lords had no whores available to do their biding, they would simply turn to the peasants and servants, which would mean more bastards (since I doubt peasants and servants have the habit of taking Moon Tea, or the money to afford it) and more rapes. So, no good.

Now, to the question of brothels IRL, which is being discussed right now… absolutely yes. And, before anyone comes screaming at me, let me get this clear: I have my reasons, of course, but the main thing is… I don’t like it. I don’t like prostitution. I don’t like prostitutes. So, if I had to vote for prostitution being legal or illegal, I would vote illegal. Sure, other people may like prostitution, use prostitution, and they may be unhappy without it, but what do I care? Fuck them. (not literally, of course: still illegal)

But… why? Well, let me explain this. I, personally, have a really simple way of defining if a job is “worthy” or “decent”. Imagine that you have children. Done? Very well. Now ask yourself; would you tell your children you did “x” thing when you were young?

If the answer is yes and you have pride in saying so, then that was a good work, like, say, being a medic. If the answer is a yes without pride, then you probably had a honest work that is not that well seen, like, I don’t know, cleaning things. If the answer is no, however, then your work was wrong – simple as that.

And in my pretty innocent mind, I do not imagine any parent would come to their children and say “I was a whore” if they could help it.

ChillyPolly, I agree with you that no woman should be a prostitute. I mean… come on! Women worked so hard to get rights to work and to have some degree of independence; choosing to sell yourself instead is spitting in the face of that. My mother – the woman I hold the strongest respect for – had men telling her that she should be a prostitute when younger, as far as she tells me (and I don’t doubt it – there are guys who are just dicks like that, and by what I see in photos, she was pretty). She didn’t do it; she worked hard at a hospital, cleaning clothes, her arm to this day has problems from all the work, but she didn’t sell herself. For this, I have the biggest respect from her. If she had sold herself for men, then I would be ashamed. Even if she were to do that for her children, I would be ashamed, for there are other ways, better ways. Only thing I would like to point out is that I don’t believe that many prostitutes are women who didn’t had a choice; where I live, there’s at least two prostitutes I know of, and though they are not rich, they aren’t that poor either. Both had education, both are young, both have family. They’re not prostitutes because they need, but only because, in the end of the day, they would rather lay with a couple of strangers for a three-digit-payment per day than work hard for a two-digit-payment per day.

So… yeah. Not up for it. Won’t support it. If you wanna do it, go ahead, I can’t and won’t stop you, but I consider this… distasteful, to say the least.

[Deicida]

Academic achievement and the bell curve for grading it is one thing. leaving out all of the folks that are highly skilled yet do not thrive in an academic environment and assigning value to a person based on their academic proficiency or career is Elitist Drivel.

I accept your surrender and will call for my Maester to tend to your wounds after I will slowly remove the dagger from your neck and watch you lick the blade clean. Then we will shake hands.

Haha well... you can't say no attempts at peace were made. I was thinking more along the lines of strike your banners, come to me before dawn, and I will grant you your old seat in the council crown myself victor of this discussion and not rub your impending defeat in your face.

The Bell Curve showed that there is a clear correlation between socioeconomic status and IQ. I don't think anyone can argue that intelligence doesn't at least constitute some small part of a person's value.

The presupposition that an interaction with a surgeon is some how "better" than an interaction with a custodian is elitist drivel.

Interaction with an intelligent person is better than interaction with an idiot. It's not that there are no exceptions to the rule, but the average interaction with a surgeon is better.

[Lemonking]

To the question of the topic... as much as I would want to say “yes”, the answer is no. Considering Westeros, if the lords had no whores available to do their biding, they would simply turn to the peasants and servants, which would mean more bastards (since I doubt peasants and servants have the habit of taking Moon Tea, or the money to afford it) and more rapes. So, no good.

Now, to the question of brothels IRL, which is being discussed right now… absolutely yes. And, before anyone comes screaming at me, let me get this clear: I have my reasons, of course, but the main thing is… I don’t like it. I don’t like prostitution. I don’t like prostitutes. So, if I had to vote for prostitution being legal or illegal, I would vote illegal. Sure, other people may like prostitution, use prostitution, and they may be unhappy without it, but what do I care? Fuck them. (not literally, of course: still illegal)

But… why? Well, let me explain this. I, personally, have a really simple way of defining if a job is “worthy” or “decent”. Imagine that you have children. Done? Very well. Now ask yourself; would you tell your children you did “x” thing when you were young?

If the answer is yes and you have pride in saying so, then that was a good work, like, say, being a medic. If the answer is a yes without pride, then you probably had a honest work that is not that well seen, like, I don’t know, cleaning things. If the answer is no, however, then your work was wrong – simple as that.

And in my pretty innocent mind, I do not imagine any parent would come to their children and say “I was a whore” if they could help it.

ChillyPolly, I agree with you that no woman should be a prostitute. I mean… come on! Women worked so hard to get rights to work and to have some degree of independence; choosing to sell yourself instead is spitting in the face of that. My mother – the woman I hold the strongest respect for – had men telling her that she should be a prostitute when younger, as far as she tells me (and I don’t doubt it – there are guys who are just dicks like that, and by what I see in photos, she was pretty). She didn’t do it; she worked hard at a hospital, cleaning clothes, her arm to this day has problems from all the work, but she didn’t sell herself. For this, I have the biggest respect from her. If she had sold herself for men, then I would be ashamed. Even if she were to do that for her children, I would be ashamed, for there are other ways, better ways. Only thing I would like to point out is that I don’t believe that many prostitutes are women who didn’t had a choice; where I live, there’s at least two prostitutes I know of, and though they are not rich, they aren’t that poor either. Both had education, both are young, both have family. They’re not prostitutes because they need, but only because, in the end of the day, they would rather lay with a couple of strangers for a three-digit-payment per day than work hard for a two-digit-payment per day.

So… yeah. Not up for it. Won’t support it. If you wanna do it, go ahead, I can’t and won’t stop you, but I consider this… distasteful, to say the least.

That's all well and good, but making/leaving it illegal doesn't adress any of your problems with prostitution, it just makes life harder for many people and doesn't help others.

Shame is a very abritrary feeling, many people are ashamed of being unemployed or having to go to a soup kitchen but nobody would suggest making unemployment and poverty illegal/punishable.

[Bryanfury]

Shame is a very abritrary feeling, many people are ashamed of being unemployed or having to go to a soup kitchen but nobody would suggest making unemployment and poverty illegal/punishable.

I agree. And yet there's other posters suggesting we stigmatise these people further rather than alleviate their source of shame! Crazy, right?

[LongRider]

Banning brothels wouldn't stop illegal or black market prostitution. Neither for that matter does legal brothels. A modern brothel can protect the interest of the sex workers, their customers and everyone's health. However, in a society like Westeros, I don't see that the Crown could adequately regulate brothels other than collecting taxes. Stannis's idea to ban them is unrealistic.

[LongRider]

Why are some posters behaving like Moral Hounds?

~~~~snip~~~

Wait! Who sez the Hound is Moral? He killed Mycha ffs! And Tryion said he gambles and drinks and whores! :shocked:

ZOMG! Who would hold him up as a paragon of morality???!!!!??11???! :ack:

>>>looks around<<< Oh, shit, wrong thread. My bad. :dunce:

[OldGimletEye]

The Bell Curve showed that there is a clear correlation between socioeconomic status and IQ. I don't think anyone can argue that intelligence doesn't at least constitute some small part of a person's value.

Are you talking about that book? I think there is some academic work that disagrees with it. Is there something better about the stats models used in the Bell Curve and the data used in it that makes it better than other work?

Interaction with an intelligent person is better than interaction with an idiot. It's not that there are no exceptions to the rule, but the average interaction with a surgeon is better.

What kind of metric are using to asses "better interaction". If there is no such metric, then how do you conclude "on average" it's better?

[LongRider]

In all honesty, who do you respect more: the surgeon or the person scrubbing toilets? Respecting something and believing it's morally acceptable are two different things.

Now you've pissed me off. I've never been a surgeon but I've scrubbed toilets so f*** y***. Scrubbing toilets is not glam by any means but it's honest work and creates a clean environment. Because of my work history I respect the people who do work like that and treat them respectfully too.

I've met surgeons that are total and complete assholes so please, don't tell me I should respect someone because of what they do. It's who they are that counts. And that goes for sex workers as well as the toilet scrubber.

[LongRider]

I'm probably one of the few anti-prostitution people on this forum.

I have no strong opinions about exactly how far, as a matter of policy, prosecutors should go in pursuing prostitutes and/or pimps. I do think, at the very least, it should be illegal, even if not vigorously pursued.

But one thing I am sure of. No woman (who has a choice - mostly they don't) should choose to be a prostitute. "Professional homewrecker" is not an honorable profession. Meanwhile, and perhaps especially, no man should ever patronize a prostitute. Find your own girl, and take responsibility for how you treat her. Or go without. Otherwise, 9 times out of 10 or better, you are paying evil pimps to abuse and degrade women. And I don't care what stupid fantasies you have cooked up about how prostitutes will become well treated if the profession is legalized. I don't believe it for a minute, and neither should you. Even if legalization does somehow make things marginally better for them (as opposed to merely creating more victims and permitting the government to take a cut) you should still be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Don't patronize prostitutes and do not be one yourself.

That shit won't fly in Nevada.

[ChillyPolly]

That shit won't fly in Nevada.

But it does.

[LongRider]

It's been tried. It does not achieve any of these things except the increased tax revenues (which it does indeed achieve). What it causes is an huge increase in human trafficking to the jurisdictions where it has been legalized, and an increase in the government's cut from the exploitation.

What can you show as facts? All we have so far is your opinion. On other threads you've mentioned that you hate having sex scenes in books and don't want anymore in ASOIAF. I bring this up because apparently you have issues with sex or why would you be so squeamish about it?

Legal prostitution does more than provide tax revenues. That is simplifying a very complex business. One could say the same about legal gambling I suppose and having worked in that industry for over ten years I wouldn't agree with you.

Put up some facts to prove your points.