Should brothels be banned?

[ChillyPolly]

What I do doesn't grow crops, cook food, create products, educate children, and really contributes nothing of value to the culture.

I have no opinion on that. You have declared it to be so, and I take your word for it.

[JonSnow4President]

I have no opinion on that. You have declared it to be so, and I take your word for it.

It's an opinion held by a large portion of the industry. What we do is legally mandated (with more additions post-Enron), but the majority of my coworkers, at multiple levels within the firm, see little real value in what we do. Still, it's a shit ton of work. It's a job.

[ChillyPolly]

Your article didn't give individual country statistics comparable with liberalised laws in order for me to form an opinion to your question beyond stating that I doubt the life expectancy of prostitutes in Thailand and Denmark are the same, for example. Also, attributing lower life expectancy to prostitution itself is short-sighted; we must consider why the life expectancy is low, and compare it to other professions. I don't appreciate the 'do not care' comment at all.

http://eminism.org/blog/entry/date/2011/07

Basically this lists many other concerns with Farleys writings beyond her failure to cite much of her writing correctly, including outright lies. Often Farley is flawed also because she frequently uses streetwalkers to base her attacks on brothels and escorts, or how she draws conclusions On legal prostitution using data on illegal trafficking. 'm sure you can see the issue.

Again I acknowledge that a few posts back I jumped the gun a little in slandering her writing, which is why I took the time to back my opinion on it up.

Okay, there are flaws in the article. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from that practically speaking. I certainly see no reason to change my overall opinion. Prostitution causes harm.

On the issue of mortality, this may satisfy your standards better:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/159/8/778.full.pdf+html

It found a yearly mortality of over 450 per 100,000 for active prostitutes, a rate roughly 10 times that for non-prostitutes in a similar age-bracket.

[ChillyPolly]

It's an opinion held by a large portion of the industry. What we do is legally mandated (with more additions post-Enron), but the majority of my coworkers, at multiple levels within the firm, see little real value in what we do. Still, it's a shit ton of work. It's a job.

I really don't care. If your work is really completely valueless, then it is just as valuable as prostitution.

JohnSnow4President's job: zero value.

Prostitutes job = zero value.

I'm completely fine with that. Please stop trying to convince me.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Okay, there are flaws in the article. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from that practically speaking. I certainly see no reason to change my overall opinion. Prostitution causes harm.

On the issue of mortality, this may satisfy your standards better:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/159/8/778.full.pdf+html

It found a yearly mortality of over 450 per 100,000 for active prostitutes, a rate roughly 10 times that for non-prostitutes in a similar age-bracket.

And the survey was conducted in a country where prostitution is illegal and, obviously, unregulated. Give us a similar study conducted in the Netherlands.

[ElizabethB.]

The study says violence and drugs were the main causes of death.

[ChillyPolly]

And the survey was conducted in a country where prostitution is illegal and, obviously, unregulated. Give us a similar study conducted in the Netherlands.

That's your job ... if you can find one. My message is simple: don't be a participant and don't be a part of the problem.

But from what I'm reading, things have not exactly improved in Amsterdam. And other jurisdictions are not bending over backwards to follow the dutch model.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&

[ChillyPolly]

The study says violence and drugs were the main causes of death.

What's your point: No statistics for "direct death by penis"? What did you expect?

[ummester]

Jeez, unless you are a primary producer it can be argued the work you do is valueless.

What do artists, writers and musicians produce of intrinsic value? Politicians are little more than scaremongers that redistribute public funds and bankers are institutionalized gamblers. Surely a woman that sells their body is doing work that is just as valid as any of those things?

[ChillyPolly]

Jeez, unless you are a primary producer it can be argued the work you do is valueless.

I never took such a position that only the work of primary producers have value. Nor do I agree with it. It is a straw man. I merely chose not to argue with JohnSnow4President's assessment of his own job, which I have no interest in discussing.

[ChillyPolly]

What do artists, writers and musicians produce of intrinsic value? Politicians are little more than scaremongers that redistribute public funds and bankers are institutionalized gamblers. Surely a woman that sells their body is doing work that is just as valid as any of those things?

Some art has cultural value. Other art is evil trash which damages society and may eventually contribute to the colapse of civilization. Same goes for some politicians and some wealthy parasites. What"s your point?

[ummester]

I never took such a position that only the work of primary producers have value. Nor do I agree with it. It is a straw man. I merely chose not to argue with JohnSnow4President's assessment of his own job, which I have no interest in discussing.

But you are taking the position that prostitution is not valid work - what gives you the right to judge? How do you define what is and isn't?

It's like the question I asked earlier that you didn't answer, what is your stance in people that sell sexuallity in ways other than prostitution - strippers, pornography etc. Where do you draw your line with this opinion you have?

[Dorian Martell]

Fail? Again? Me? You don't think I'm very smart? What is this madness...

I never said intelligence is the end all be all. In fact I stated several times that so long as it constitutes part of the value of a personal interaction, my argument is valid. Since we're being honest, I think your reasoning skills are a little underdeveloped. Exceptions and the possibility of an intelligent person being an asshole do not defeat my argument in any way. Consider this:

Assuming the following:

• the quality of a personal interaction is proportional to intelligence
• the quality of a personal interaction is inversely proportional to being an asshole
• income is proportional to intelligence
• the likelihood of being an asshole is unrelated to income

You can conclude that the quality of a personal interaction is proportional to income. Of course there are other factors, but as long as they are unrelated to income or intelligence (like the probability of being an asshole), they don't change the outcome in any way. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Yes, I am ignorant of the inner workings of the minds of prostitutes. I'm sure it must all be very fascinating.

As for the Republican Party, that comment was more insulting than calling me stupid or an asshole. Don't lump me up with those conservative morons. I'd probably have to convert to Christianity before joining.

My reasoning skills are quite sound and do not require assumptions to work. that is the difference between what you are saying and what IO am saying

1: The "quality" of a personal interaction is not proportional to intelligence. Maybe for you, but I have previously addresses that your lack of an ability to contemplate something does not render it false.

2: Agreed

3: Not true. This ignores a plethora of factors that influence a job that a person can get. Once again, get some empathy and a wider real world perspective, or in short, get out and talk to people that are different than you and actually listen to their experiences. Barring that, use the internet

4: Agreed, there is hope for you yet

So here is what we have, your elitism forces to you to exist under that false assumption that you are only able to have good personal interactions with people of financial means and that your beliefs are the standard by which the rest of the world conforms to. How very conservative republican of you.

If me calling you a re-pub is so offensive, maybe you should take a look at yourself and find a way to not sound so much like their party faithful. ;)

[ChillyPolly]

But you are taking the position that prostitution is not valid work - what gives you the right to judge? How do you define what is and isn't?

Well, you are the one harassing me for saying it has no value. What value does it have?

I have a right to take a stance on moral questions because I have a duty to take a stance on moral questions.

Suppose I take the position that rape is not valid work? That murder is not valid work? That stealing purses from little old ladies is not valid work? What gives me the right to judge? How do I define what is and what isn't? Well, my answer to that is that I do the best I can with the limited resources God gave me. Moral nihilism is not the answer.

I see prostitution as something that contributes nothing of value to society and causes real harms. So I oppose it.

It's like the question I asked earlier that you didn't answer, what is your stance in people that sell sexuallity in ways other than prostitution - strippers, pornography etc. Where do you draw your line with this opinion you have?

I don't think you should pay for strippers or pay for pornography either. Find a more worthy charity. But why change the subject? Will you be asking me next about nude actresses on HBO? Or bikinis? Let's stay on topic.

[ChillyPolly]

Here's an article comparing the Swedish and Dutch models, and their results:

http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article3326

[ummester]

Well, you are the one harassing me for saying it has no value. What value does it have?

I have a right to take a stance on moral questions because I have a duty to take a stance on moral questions.

Suppose I take the position that rape is not valid work? That murder is not valid work? That stealing purses from little old ladies is not valid work? What gives me the right to judge? How do I define what is and what isn't? Well, my answer to that is that I do the best I can with the limited resources God gave me. Moral nihilism is not the answer.

I see prostitution as something that contributes nothing of value to society and causes real harms. So I oppose it.

I don't think you should pay for strippers or pay for pornography either. Find a more worthy charity.

So your argument is, at it's core, a religious or prudish one? Are you a Christian parrot?

Murder is valid work when you are employed as a soldier and your country goes to war with another. Stealing from old ladies becomes valid work for certain types of brokers.

As a side note, IMO, modern monotheistic religions, like Christianity, do more harm than good when it comes to female sexuality. The whole painting Eve as the naughty temptress that caused humanity to fall out of favor with God is more detrimental to feminine freedoms than a woman profiting from her sexuality.

[ChillyPolly]

So your argument is, at it's core, a religious or prudish one? Are you a Christian parrot?

Yes, I am a Christian parrot. Jesus loves parrots too.

But how did you figure this out? Merely because I said I was not a moral nihilist? Merely because I said I don't believe in hurting people, and oppose prostitution on that basis? Merely because I do not think that rape and murder and snatching purses from little old ladies are merely choices like any other?

I don't know what atheists and agnostics base their moral philosophies on. That's their problem. But I still think they should have a moral philosophy. Moral nihilism is not the answer.

[ChillyPolly]

As a side note, IMO, modern monotheistic religions, like Christianity, do more harm than good when it comes to female sexuality. The whole painting Eve as the naughty temptress that caused humanity to fall out of favor with God is more detrimental to feminine freedoms than a woman profiting from her sexuality.

Haha! So now you're trying to start an off-topic religious flame war?

What's your point? That it's okay for prostitution to harm women, because Christianity (according to you) harms women too?

May I make a suggestion: Stay on topic. If you care about women so much, defend prostitution by showing it does not harm them. Good luck with that !

[ummester]

Jesus loves parrots too.

Jesus loved a prostitute also, her name was Mary Magdalene.

Given that the modern bible is a re-writing of stories that, when they were originally committed to becoming the text for an organised religion in the Council of Nicaea, it is possible that both the Virgin Mary and Mary the prostitute were a separation of the same historical individual into two literary archetypes.

I assumed you were Christian because of a reference to basing your morality on God. The way you write don't feel Islamic or Zionist, so there remained one option :D

[ChillyPolly]

Jesus loved a prostitute also, her name was Mary Magdalene.

I agree that Jesus loves prostitutes. He even loves johns and pimps, which must be a bit harder. However, for the record, there is nothing in the New Testament or any other ancient source that says that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute.