Should brothels be banned?

[ElizabethB.]

What's your point: No statistics for "direct death by penis"? What did you expect?

The genitals do not cause drugs or violence. What is your point? No, wait... I don't care.

[Hrafntýr]

What I do doesn't grow crops, cook food, create products, educate children, and really contributes nothing of value to the culture. I bust my ass so my company can charge a corporation an obscene amount to provide an objective opinion on their financial statements. At the end of the day, my job is just to provide the legwork for that letter, so that maybe some investor might look at the financials and not be completely lied to 95% of the time (because we do all our statistical samples with a 95% confidence interval).

Does that mean my 9-6:30 every Monday-Friday, with a lot of work from home after hours isn't work? Does that mean my 100+ hour weeks coming up in January and February are not work?

Prostitutes, at the heart of the job, are just like cooks, waiters, car washers, furniture movers, or any other personal service line. They provide a service, using the talents of their body, that someone else doesn't want to do, and would rather pay money to get it done.

The other issues (human trafficking, drugs, etc.) are separate issues that have become attached to prostitution as practiced illegally, but are not an inherent part of the job.

The representation of prostitution in a framework like you describe here is something that I appreciate about the books. Prostitution is a job. And we see prostitutes with a range of attitudes about their work, just like we would expect to see within any job. Like in real life, the work that many people in Westeros do is unglamorous, might not provide high levels of satisfaction, and may involve attendant risks; the work of prostitutes is very much like any other kind of work in these respects. Personally, I think that it's when people have culturally-specific notions about sex (like that it must be attached to love or marriage or relationships, e.g.) that they are inclined to see prostitution as inherently wrong (as opposed to arguments that even if it's not inherently wrong, in practice it ends up being linked to other social ills). While some of the high end courtesans (as well as the Summer Islanders) have a whole transcendent ideology of pleasure, it seems like most prostitutes approach their sex and entertainment work matter of factly. Nor do I see the brothels as being scenes of abuse: when that happens, appropriate outrage is expressed against those who break the rules.

Personally, I don't see why the production of temporary pleasure, when contracted between consenting adults, is a problem. I realize consent can be a thorny thing to determine, but in the context of the books, it seems like class inequality is the real issue: the poor are often "forced" by circumstances to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

I said nothing whatsoever that implies that women are "possessions". Treating them as commodities is precisely what I am objecting to.

However, one woman tried to put me in a cage and feed me avocados. But I flew away. I miss the avocados though.

I smell a rat: Avocados are toxic to parrots; they can cause cardiac distress/heart failure.

[ElizabethB.]

The representation of prostitution in a framework like you describe here is something that I appreciate about the books. Prostitution is a job. And we see prostitutes with a range of attitudes about their work, just like we would expect to see within any job. Like in real life, the work that many people in Westeros do is unglamorous, might not provide high levels of satisfaction, and may involve attendant risks; the work of prostitutes is very much like any other kind of work in these respects. Personally, I think that it's when people have culturally-specific notions about sex (like that it must be attached to love or marriage or relationships, e.g.) that they are inclined to see prostitution as inherently wrong (as opposed to arguments that even if it's not inherently wrong, in practice it ends up being linked to other social ills). While some of the high end courtesans (as well as the Summer Islanders) have a whole transcendent ideology of pleasure, it seems like most prostitutes approach their sex and entertainment work matter of factly. Nor do I see the brothels as being scenes of abuse: when that happens, appropriate outrage is expressed against those who break the rules.

Summer Islands are really interesting.

It really is about how people perceive sex.

Sin? Natural? Boring?

I wonder if Martin has commented on how his sex scenes are perceived.

[JonSnow4President]

I never took such a position that only the work of primary producers have value. Nor do I agree with it. It is a straw man. I merely chose not to argue with JohnSnow4President's assessment of his own job, which I have no interest in discussing.

You said "Prostitution is not work at all" because it doesn't contribute value. Now, you're calling it (and what I do) as a job, which is inherently tied to work. Prostitution is work.

[ChillyPolly]

You said "Prostitution is not work at all" because it doesn't contribute value. Now, you're calling it (and what I do) as a job, which is inherently tied to work. Prostitution is work.

So, it's all about semantics now? Yes, you can call it "work", if you do not mean to imply it contributes value.

[ChillyPolly]

Summer Islands are really interesting.

It really is about how people perceive sex.

Sin? Natural? Boring?

I wonder if Martin has commented on how his sex scenes are perceived.

I hope we are not going to start waxing ecstatic about the Summer Islands, land of institutionalized child rape; a Sex-Tourist-Fantasy Island, where sex with children is okay because "It's their culture" and what is rape to us is normal to them because they are not like us.

[ChillyPolly]

I smell a rat: Avocados are toxic to parrots; they can cause cardiac distress/heart failure.

Didn't seem to do me any harm. But perhaps it's a good thing I left.

[ElizabethB.]

I hope we are not going to start waxing ecstatic about the Summer Islands, land of institutionalized child rape; a Sex-Tourist-Fantasy Island, where sex with children is okay because "It's their culture" and what is rape to us is normal to them because they are not like us.

Me too.

[ChillyPolly]

Me too.

Pretty horrible place to live, those Summer Islands. As soon as you turn 12 or 13, you get sent to the priests, and have to have sex to anyone who wants to have sex with you for about a year. Or is that just me being a prude again? But I guess, it's a great place to VISIT, if you are a hebophile sex tourist with a taste for "exotic" underage flesh.

[The Mother of The Others]

What if prostitution was legal but only inside of a Denny's or Walgreens or an equally public and well lit establishment so that the potential for physical abuse would be vastly decreased.

[ElizabethB.]

Pretty horrible place to live, those Summer Islands. As soon as you turn 12 or 13, you get sent to the priests, and have to have sex to anyone who wants to have sex with you for about a year. Or is that just me being a prude again? But I guess, it's a great place to VISIT, if you are a hebophile sex tourist with a taste for "exotic" underage flesh.

Ghastly. Horrid.

Are you asking me if you are a prude?

[ChillyPolly]

What if prostitution was legal but only inside of a Denny's or Walgreens or an equally public and well lit establishment so that the potential for physical abuse would be vastly decreased.

Illicit prostitution would increase and human trafficking would increase, if the Danish and German experiences are any indication.

[ChillyPolly]

Ghastly. Horrid.

Are you asking me if you are a prude?

People on these boards will defend the Summer Islands.

[Annarkie]

Did you all hear about the adult film star who completed law school and passed the California Bar exam?

She was able to pay her way through law school and will not have cribbling student debt and now will have a well paying, stable career.

When I was 18 and accepted to my dream college...which had a nightmarishly high tuition, I'd considered becoming a stripper and maybe even work for an escort service or underground brothel, (but definitely no streetwalking) to pay for it. (I had no attachments, was dirt poor, and I'm a self admitted sex addict, so it seemed like a good option.

But then I found out I was pregnant so I gave up on that college, worked a crappy min-wage job, then got an Associate's in Automotive Technology (while working in construction). I immediately got a job as a mechanic. Still not great pay but better than min. wage. And just when my student loan was paid off I ended up crippling my shoulders and getting laid off because I was too slow to make flat rate.

I did a few other jobs, wrote some books, got a low advance book deal, and then went back to school to get an Associate's in English. I worked as a Janitor at that time and I actually really liked it. I could listen to music and plot out books while I worked. (This to the person who said no one wants to be a janitor. It was one of my better jobs)

I'm now working 2 full time jobs, one as an author (90% of us don't make enough to only write) one at a barely above min-wage, and a part time job as an editor (yay for finally using my degree).

In school I always had straight As. Was on the honor roll, then later, the Dean's list. So to the person claiming that low income people are less intelligent, I exist as a contradiction.

To the one who implied that low income people are "lazy" and with a little effort one can make 100K. Yeah... I'm working my ass off with 3 jobs and raising a son and just barely got out of being eligible for food stamps.

If it weren't for said son, prostituting myself for a higher degree at a better school might have been a better path.

Now back to the OP, I shudder to think of what would happen in KL if Brothels were outlawed. Medieval-style pimps and traffickers? Widows being imprisoned for trying to feed their kids? Remember, there's very little employment opportunities for the lowborn.

[ChillyPolly]

Now back to the OP, I shudder to think of what would happen in KL if Brothels were outlawed. Medieval-style pimps and traffickers? Widows being imprisoned for trying to feed their kids? Remember, there's very little employment opportunities for the lowborn.

That's not how it would work at all. Prostitution transfers money from women and children, and puts it in the coffers of pimps. This might be especially true in a medieval setting, where the man was typically in charge of the family finances.

When resources are scarce, prostitution does not help the "lowborn". Because, of course, it does nothing to increase the available resources. It just funnels it to pimps.

[DraculaAD1972]

Prostitution transfers money from women and children, and puts it in the coffers of pimps.

Women and children pay money to pimps? I thought the Evil Johns paid the prostitutes, then the Evil Pimps take the money from them.

Solution? Set up state- run brothels, owned by the king, with a minimum wage for the girls and protection from pimps.

[The Mother of The Others]

Or you could bring this money trail full circle. Find the pimps and take the money from them, then give it back to the middle class who were overtaxed in the first place so that the government could then redistribute the money to make it look like they deserved re-election. Then, once the middle class has cash in their pockets... DS al coda.

[DraculaAD1972]

Or you could bring this money trail full circle. Find the pimps and take the money from them, then give it back to the middle class who were overtaxed in the first place so that the government could then redistribute the money to make it look like they deserved re-election. Then, once the middle class has cash in their pockets... DS al coda.

This could work - if the middle classes are compelled, by King's law, to frequent the Royal Brothels and thereby ensure the girls are in the money loop.

Kings Landing would need a new position - a Master of Whores, working with the Master of Laws and Master of Coin.

[JonSnow4President]

This could work - if the middle classes are compelled, by King's law, to frequent the Royal Brothels and thereby ensure the girls are in the money loop.

Kings Landing would need a new position - a Master of Whores, working with the Master of Laws and Master of Coin.

I nominate Tyrion Lannister.

[ummester]

That's not how it would work at all. Prostitution transfers money from women and children, and puts it in the coffers of pimps. This might be especially true in a medieval setting, where the man was typically in charge of the family finances.

When resources are scarce, prostitution does not help the "lowborn". Because, of course, it does nothing to increase the available resources. It just funnels it to pimps.

So why isn't your issue with pimps and not hookers and johns?

If there were no pimps, it would all be good yea? Many workplaces would be better with less and different management, come to think of it. I agree with you fully that most middle-man jobs are a total waste of time, there is no reason that, in this time of electronic funds transfers, most of us shouldn't be able to fund the service provider directly for whatever we desire, to whoever can provide it for us directly. Publishers, middle management, politicians, real estate agents, car salesmen, brokers and pimps - what value do any of them add?

Referencing Jesus' actions in the Bible, it was the usurers who he seemed to have the biggest issue with, never the prostitutes, or the johns.

Prostitutes produce and sell a physical activity, they themselves are the primary producers of sale-able sex and probably should be paid directly for it. They can then pay the hotel owner or whatever out of their payment, or tell the client that hotel services, GST, stains on clothes etc, etc all cost that little bit more before providing the service.