Do you support the Greens or Blacks? Why?

[Aemond's Eye]

You mean when he got into a super fight with Aemond and died in battle? I would hardly call that losing his lust for power. If he had survived that fight I do not doubt he would hold the power in KL while his sons grew.

I don't think he means the "super fight" so much as Daemon not eloping with Nettles, and instead staying to fight for the death against Aemond, as a last stand.

Perhaps your lack of objectivity means you can't see any of "evil bastard" Daemon's as anything other than "evil".

[C.T. Phipps]

She's too much like my beloved green eyed lioness from the Rock. Like as not, she would have ended up doing the same Walk.

I think in order to win and hold power for a woman in those times, being unmarried like Lady Jeyne the Maid of the Vale was a good asset. Or at least having an acceptable husband. Being married to Daemon on the other hand... not good.

I disagree, as we see her child with Daemon inherits the throne without issue. With Daemon as her husband, she has a child who is indisputably a Targaryen, the King's brother to strengthen her own claim to the throne, and a person who is a mainstay of the courts in King's Landing.

I also doubt Daemon wanted anything other than to be crowned King. He doesn't strike as the type to sit down and do ruling.

[Lord Varys]

Daemon showed a lot of caution - effectively as much as Rhaenyra did - throughout the war. He was not willing to burn down KL or risk any dragons in battle if they had another choice. And later he wanted to take two dragons to hunt down Aemond - he knew no one could hope to survive this whole thing unscathed.

Not to mention that a dragonless Daemon would not really be all that dangerous/powerful/intimidating.

The problem with the picture of 'power hungry' Daemon is that he did not really try to seize power in the usual way. He did not want to rule or sit on the Small Council. There are hints that the younger Daemon lusted after the throne (which is why he seduced Rhaenyra, married Laena, and eventually Rhaenyra - although my guess is that she was the one who took the initiative the second time around).

Daemon had strong mood swings - I'd compare him to Aerys in that whole thing - and it seems that the man we meet in the Dance is a lot different from his younger self. He has settled down, is cautious and shrewd in war - but then, after Rhaenyra has the Iron Throne, when he is Lord Protector of the Realm not only in name, he does not try to take away from Rhaenyra after she demands Nettles' head. He just throws his life away, literally. Even if we go with the theory he might have survived and joined the Green Men (as I deem possible) it is clear that he did not try to use his authority to try to depose Rhaenyra. Instead he handed his niece-wife and their son, Aegon the Younger, to the wolves.

Aemond was no real threat to the Blacks at this point. With Caraxes and Sheepstealer Daemon could have done pretty much anything. He could have gone to KL to feed Rhaenyra to his dragon (or burn down the Red Keep in vengeance), or try to reason with her. He could have gone to take on the Hightower army to deal with the Two Betrayers and take the throne himself, or he could have tried to hand over Rhaenyra to the Greens to rule in the name of Aegon II. Instead he did nothing of this. And this line about Rhaenyra as a whore actually could be the words of a man who was not so much angry but hurt.

[Wmarshal]

I don't think he means the "super fight" so much as Daemon not eloping with Nettles, and instead staying to fight for the death against Aemond, as a last stand.

Perhaps your lack of objectivity means you can't see any of "evil bastard" Daemon's as anything other than "evil".

So because he decided to slay Aemond instead of taking Nettles meant he was not power lust?

Daemon showed a lot of caution - effectively as much as Rhaenyra did - throughout the war. He was not willing to burn down KL or risk any dragons in battle if they had another choice. And later he wanted to take two dragons to hunt down Aemond - he knew no one could hope to survive this whole thing unscathed.

Not to mention that a dragonless Daemon would not really be all that dangerous/powerful/intimidating.

The problem with the picture of 'power hungry' Daemon is that he did not really try to seize power in the usual way. He did not want to rule or sit on the Small Council. There are hints that the younger Daemon lusted after the throne (which is why he seduced Rhaenyra, married Laena, and eventually Rhaenyra - although my guess is that she was the one who took the initiative the second time around).

Daemon had strong mood swings - I'd compare him to Aerys in that whole thing - and it seems that the man we meet in the Dance is a lot different from his younger self. He has settled down, is cautious and shrewd in war - but then, after Rhaenyra has the Iron Throne, when he is Lord Protector of the Realm not only in name, he does not try to take away from Rhaenyra after she demands Nettles' head. He just throws his life away, literally. Even if we go with the theory he might have survived and joined the Green Men (as I deem possible) it is clear that he did not try to use his authority to try to depose Rhaenyra. Instead he handed his niece-wife and their son, Aegon the Younger, to the wolves.

Aemond was no real threat to the Blacks at this point. With Caraxes and Sheepstealer Daemon could have done pretty much anything. He could have gone to KL to feed Rhaenyra to his dragon (or burn down the Red Keep in vengeance), or try to reason with her. He could have gone to take on the Hightower army to deal with the Two Betrayers and take the throne himself, or he could have tried to hand over Rhaenyra to the Greens to rule in the name of Aegon II. Instead he did nothing of this. And this line about Rhaenyra as a whore actually could be the words of a man who was not so much angry but hurt.

I don't believe Daemon was so changed as you, just his heart was taken by Nettles like never before. Aemond was his last great foe, I see their match as a coin throw up, it would decide his destiny. He did not fight as a man seeking death, but one to win his battle. His caution testified his years at war, of plots and dreams for glory come to him, this war the must precious in his life for it decided his dream of power and the crown he wanted more then anything. Nettles to me distracted him, as Lyanna distracted Rhaegar. he may have hated Rhaenyra for what she did, but she was the mother of their children, his sons and heirs. I believe he knew he could not turn her, and chose to face Aemond and his beast, the greatest threat to his power, what kept him from returning, his final test. He was away from court for the purpose to hunt Aemond, for Aemond was a threat with the blood of Viserys and the greatest of dragons. I do not believe he survived for if he did he would have been reborn, the prince come again a king. Perhaps he was done with war and found peace at last, but I don't had he live he would abandon what he fought to the bitter end for, for the dark deeds that brought him so close.

[Aemond's Eye]

So because he decided to slay Aemond instead of taking Nettles meant he was not power lust?

He's lusting after power because you say so, basically. His last act pretty much goes against your portrayal of him as lusting for power above all else and being "evil," else he would have saved his own skin and taken another shot at a power grab rather than the "super fight" with Aemond - a fight that he knew he wouldn't be walking away from. It seems that the only way you're prepared to interpret the events is in any fashion that suits your critique of Daemon.

I'll stop discussing it at this point, as I'm not going to go round in circles over it.

[Wmarshal]

He's lusting after power because you say so, basically. His last act pretty much goes against your portrayal of him as lusting for power above all else and being "evil," else he would have saved his own skin and taken another shot at a power grab rather than the "super fight" with Aemond - a fight that he knew he wouldn't be walking away from. It seems that the only way you're prepared to interpret the events is in any fashion that suits your critique of Daemon.

I'll stop discussing it at this point, as I'm not going to go round in circles over it.

So him basically trying every which way possible in Rogues to get closer to the throne means nothing because he faced Aemond instead of going to Nettles? And again but this whole because he choice to fight then run proves something is as false as they get, Daemon life is of a man that refused to run, when he is refused he carves out a kingdom of his own, he find everyway he can to slay a foe and gets what he wants, be a bride or a kingdom. Aemond stood between him and a kingdom, their was no victory so long as he lived.

I honestly really was trying not to start a long talk with you, mostly because your explanation really left much to be found seems to end with " well because you don't see this point you must be stuck in your ways".

[Aemond's Eye]

So him basically trying every which way possible in Rogues to get closer to the throne means nothing because he faced Aemond instead of going to Nettles? And again but this whole because he choice to fight then run proves something is as false as they get, Daemon life is of a man that refused to run, when he is refused he carves out a kingdom of his own, he find everyway he can to slay a foe and gets what he wants, be a bride or a kingdom. Aemond stood between him and a kingdom, their was no victory so long as he lived.

I honestly really was trying not to start a long talk with you, mostly because your explanation really left much to be found seems to end with " well because you don't see this point you must be stuck in your ways".

No. Try actually reading my posts rather than inferring your own meanings. At no point did I state that Daemon's final actions are a reflection on who he was or what he may have done years prior. The point that a few posters have made is that it doesn't seem like he was lusting for power by the end of his life at least - people do develop and change, you know.

His "lust for power," as you like to call it was actually his expectation at being named heir as Viserys I had no son. By the time of the Dance he's already behind Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke, Joff and his own sons Aegon The Younger and Viserys - plus Aegon The Elder, Jaehaerys, Maelor, Aemond and Daeron. By the time of the civil war he's not fighting for him to rule - he's fighting to put his wife on the throne and for him to become her consort. (The idea that Rhaenyra would rule in name only and Daemon would call all the shots is ludicrous, as it entirely ignores her character. Sure, Daemon will have power - he won't be in control though, and he doesn't come across as someone particularly interested in governance.) Part of the reason he married his niece was that they both had a mutual 'enemy' in the Hightowers - the whole situation is a lot more complex than Daemon being "evil" and "lusting for power". It's as much about preventing the Hightower progeny taking the throne as it is about Rhaenyra.

And again, you clearly interpret his actions with Aemond a lot differently than I do, as you clearly read him as a much different character than I do. We're not going to find much common ground here.

[Skinner]

Daemon was a machiavellian Byronic anti-hero who would kill young nephew in vengeance and jumped from a dragon to slay his other nephew.

Aemond was a nutcase vengeful douchebag who murdered his nephew and burnt the Riverlands. For. No. Reason.

Lot of nephew killing..

[Wmarshal]

No. Try actually reading my posts rather than inferring your own meanings. At no point did I state that Daemon's final actions are a reflection on who he was or what he may have done years prior. The point that a few posters have made is that it doesn't seem like he was lusting for power by the end of his life at least - people do develop and change, you know.

His "lust for power," as you like to call it was actually his expectation at being named heir as Viserys I had no son. By the time of the Dance he's already behind Rhaenyra, Jace, Luke, Joff and his own and Aegon The Younger and Viserys - plus Aegon The Elder, Jaehaerys, Maelor, Aemond and Daeron. By the time of the civil war he's not fighting for him to rule - he's fighting to put his wife on the throne and for him to become her consort. (The idea that Rhaenyra would rule in name only and Daemon would call all the shots is ludicrous, as it entirely ignores her character. Sure, Daemon will have power - he won't be in control though, and he doesn't come across as someone particularly interested in governance.) Part of the reason he married his niece was that they both had a mutual 'enemy' in the Hightowers - the whole situation is a lot more complex than Daemon being "evil" and "lusting for power".

And agsjn

Why do you keep bring it up when talking of his final mind set and his dreams of power? Why? You bring this battle up to my points then when I ask what is it for you say " no it isn't, stop making things up." What is it for then? For what reason do you keep mentioning it?

And hr lord protector, effectively, the ruler of the realm. (The idea would get so close to ruling to just leave it up to Rhaeynra is ludicous, ignoring his character and how he strived to marry her for that purpose.) He sought her hand before the greens were even a serious party out for blood.

[Aemond's Eye]

Daemon was a machiavellian Byronic anti-hero who would kill young nephew in vengeance and jumped from a dragon to slay his other nephew.

Aemond was a nutcase vengeful douchebag who murdered his nephew and burnt the Riverlands. For. No. Reason.

Lot of nephew killing..

"Too many nephews are as dangerous as too few, I heard His Grace tell my lord brother as he sent me to The Vale."

[Aemond's Eye]

Why do you keep bring it up when talking of his final mind set and his dreams of power? Why? You bring this battle up to my points then when I ask what is it for you say " no it isn't, stop making things up." What is it for then? For what reason do you keep mentioning it?

I'm not the only one who has mentioned it. Perhaps that should be a clue.

Why? Why is it not just me that has mentioned it if it's not relevant?

And what "points" have you "brought," other than your opinion on Daemon's character? Zilch.

And hr lord protector, effectively, the ruler of the realm. (The idea would get so close to ruling to just leave it up to Rhaeynra is ludicous, ignoring his character and how he strived to marry her for that purpose.) He sought her hand before the greens were even a serious party out for blood.

He sought her hand before he married Laena, and she Laenor. They married at a time when a mutual enemy, the Hightowers, were pushing for Aegon to be named heir.

If he was as power hungry as you say he was, he would not have fought Aemond on his own - Protector of The Realm be dammed. He'd have eloped with Nettles and staked his own claim; he'd have kept Nettles there, teamed up against Aemond, and then tried to broker a deal with the Green supporters.

Ensuring Nettles didn't die and refusing to hand her over is both compassionate (towards Nettles) and selfish (in regards to his family - as it basically greatly reduces his chances of getting away from the fight with Aemond to return to protect Rhaenyra, Joffrey and Aegon, not to mention Baela and Rhaena). The selfish aspect of that can be criticised, but it doesn't go towards painting a portrait of a man who was power hungry.

That's why - why - I, and others, have brought it up. Because we don't interpret Daemon's intentions at that point the same way you do. (At least three folk seem to disagree with you there, and it's not like we all agree on the details either.)

And for the record, Lord Varys is the one that first commented on Daemon's character towards the end and you - you - replied. He also mentioned that it's possible that the way Daemon is portrayed is supposed to be intentionally biased at points.

[Wmarshal]

I'm not the only one who has mentioned it. Perhaps that should be a clue.

Why? Why is it not just me that has mentioned it if it's not relevant?

And what "points" have you "brought," other than your opinion on Daemon's character? Zilch.

He sought her hand before he married Laena, and she Laenor. They married at a time when a mutual enemy, the Hightowers, were pushing for Aegon to be named heir.

If he was as power hungry as you say he was, he would not have fought Aemond on his own - Protector of The Realm be dammed. He'd have eloped with Nettles and staked his own claim; he'd have kept Nettles there, teamed up against Aemond, and then tried to broker a deal with the Green supporters.

I never stated it was unnecessary, when I asked how it proved he was beyond power lust, you went on your marry way to describe how i was beyond your logic by my big headness.

Lets see:

1. Pushing his brother to be king even calling men at arms.
2. Pushing to become his heir.
3. Carving his own kingdom.
4. Seeking his niece the heir's hand.

And? How because it was before he was wed remove the seeking it for power effect? As to him doing it purely to go against the greens: why on earth would they marry at all? They were already connected by their children. He could easily fought for her claim as Cloys and rhaenys did.

If he was as power hungry as you say he was, he would not have fought Aemond on his own - Protector of The Realm be dammed. He'd have eloped with Nettles and staked his own claim; he'd have kept Nettles there, teamed up against Aemond, and then tried to broker a deal with the Green supporters.

If he was so beyond power and glory he would have went with his lady, this war was his war, and Aemond his final test. He had no claim, it lied with Rhaenyra's and his sons. Again, either way you spin it, him fighting Aemond at all was for the war. Him killing Aemond instead of dying by dragon flame, he fought to win.

That's why - why - I, and others, have brought it up. Because we don't interpret Daemon's intentions at that point the same way you do. (At least three folk seem to disagree with you there, and it's not like we all agree on the details either.)

And for the record, Lord Varys is the one that first commented on Daemon's character towards the end and you - you - replied. He also mentioned that it's possible that the way Daemon is portrayed is supposed to be intentionally biased at points.

The reason i continue to ask why because everytime i asked you if it showed he was beyond selfish your tart is:

It seems that the only way you're prepared to interpret the events is in any fashion that suits your critique of Daemon.

You say he could not walk away from it but he fought to win. Now something to be said as how won his fight, jumping and dying incredible far up, but as i stated before, this was his test, the greatest threat to the reign of his family. If he was selfish and simply wanted to spare nettles and leave his family he could have easily went with nettles, he did not. He fought and died as he lived, in battle for his dreams.

I must have read your points wrong, sorry then for that, but Daemon deeds showed what he is, a man who did as he pleased, and he convened the throne he saw was his, he was set agianst his nephews because they pushed him farther back the line of succession.

[Red Priest]

I disagree, as we see her child with Daemon inherits the throne without issue. With Daemon as her husband, she has a child who is indisputably a Targaryen, the King's brother to strengthen her own claim to the throne, and a person who is a mainstay of the courts in King's Landing.

I also doubt Daemon wanted anything other than to be crowned King. He doesn't strike as the type to sit down and do ruling.

But he has a history of being power hungry. This is a guy who built a kingdom out of the Stepstones. he also tried to the claim Runestone after his wife, the 'Bronze Bitch' died. He was exiled so many times and the 'Blood and Cheese' episode was just too repulsive even for Westerosi society. I think if Rhaenyra were single or wed to someone more acceptable like some other Velaryon or another Targaryen Prince, things would have been easier for her.

[Aemond's Eye]

I never stated it was unnecessary, when I asked how it proved he was beyond power lust, you went on your marry way to describe how i was beyond your logic by my big headness.

Again, you're inferring things. I did not call you big headed - "big headed" would mean arrogant, cocky of at least over confident. What I actually posted was that I don't think you come across as objective.

And the way you word things is the reason why.

Lets see:

[*]Pushing his brother to be king even calling men at arms.

[*]Pushing to become his heir.

I noticed you've left out the part about Daemon preparing a small army in response to Corlys' preparing his fleet. Corlys was prepared to use his fleet to try to secure Laenor votes - Daemon responded in kind. Again, I think you're being selective to criticise the character. He did not march on Harrenhal with an army and force the lords to vote for his brother - he made it known that he was willing to take on Corlys if necessary.

He expected to be named Viserys' heir, based on female claimants being passed over for Viserys. He expected this due to Viserys & Aemma's difficulty - or inability - to sire a son. Given recent Targaryen inheritance history up to that point, it's actually a reasonable expectation.

And he quite possibly would have been, had he not made the cruel "heir for a day" joke. (And before that's dissected as evidence of him being "an evil bastard," there's textual comments that he and Viserys I had been close previously, and I'd say they loved each other still at this point - it's a distasteful joke like many people make. And a stupid one to make, given that he of all people should have known that you can't always trust gold cloaks or whores. In hindsight, he shouldn't have went for a piss up that night.)

[*]Carving his own kingdom.

The Kingdom of The Stepstones was as much Corlys' idea, and it was for wealth. Why is "a lust for power" that a knight and warrior would rather carve out a wealthy trading post than be a consort to a lady in the Vale? He was trying to carve out his own wealth there, independent of Westeros. He eventually sought financial aid from the Iron Throne, and if he'd succeeded in his war efforts there it would actually have benefitted the trading galleys going to and from Westeros too.

You can't have it both ways. You can't criticise him when he pushes to be named heir, then criticise him when he goes off to attempt to conquer his own set of small islands with a view to becoming wealthy from the tolls they'd generate.

What should he have done? Went to be Lady Royce's consort? Neither cared for the other and it seems that the marriage wouldn't have produced children. Does he just twiddle his thumbs in the Vale? He chanced his arm in trying to claim her lands - most husbands would. He mayhaps hoped that Jeyne Arryn's Targaryen lineage would help his case. Either way, he was very wrong.

[*]Seeking his niece the heir's hand.

He's as power hungry as just about every lord in the land then - Rhaenyra had plenty competing for her hand.

None of your list convinces me that he's "evil" or "lusting for power" more than any other noble.

And? How because it was before he was wed remove the seeking it for power effect? As to him doing it purely to go against the greens: why on earth would they marry at all? They were already connected by their children. He could easily fought for her claim as Cloys and rhaenys did.

Again, inference on your part. I did not at any point claim that they married solely because they both had an enemy in the Hightowers - I posted that it was one of the reasons, and that it was a complex situation. There's more than one reason behind the marriage.

If he was so beyond power and glory he would have went with his lady, this war was his war, and Aemond his final test. He had no claim, it lied with Rhaenyra's and his sons. Again, either way you spin it, him fighting Aemond at all was for the war. Him killing Aemond instead of dying by dragon flame, he fought to win.

The reason i continue to ask why because everytime i asked you if it showed he was beyond selfish your tart is:

You say he could not walk away from it but he fought to win. Now something to be said as how won his fight, jumping and dying incredible far up, but as i stated before, this was his test, the greatest threat to the reign of his family. If he was selfish and simply wanted to spare nettles and leave his family he could have easily went with nettles, he did not. He fought and died as he lived, in battle for his dreams.

I must have read your points wrong, sorry then for that, but Daemon deeds showed what he is, a man who did as he pleased, and he convened the throne he saw was his, he was set agianst his nephews because they pushed him farther back the line of succession.

For the last time - I do not agree with your interpretation of the Daemon/Aemond battle. Obviously, he fought to win. If you'd read any of my previous posts in the thread, I've posted that by killing Aemond he'd eliminate the real heir to Aegon - if Aegon II dies and Aemond lives, the Greens rally behind him. Nowhere have I posted that he intended to lose.

But I've already stated why I don't think he expected to leave Harrenhal. He'd have stood a better chance of that with Sheepstealer alongside Caraxes against Vhagar. Daemon of all people knew the latter dragon well - it was his late wife's dragon. He knew exactly the type of beast he was up against. Instead he defied Rhaenyra by letting Nettles get out of there, when he could have curried favour by bringing her back to KL.

Now, as much as I think he knew he'd be going out in a blaze of glory and hell fire, I'm objective enough to acknowledge that there's selfish elements there as well. He puts his feelings towards his paramour above his duties to Rhaenyra, his wife and Queen, and all of their children (including those from previous marriages, as they were essentially one family). Had he instead defeated Aemond with Nettles, he might actually have been able to change her mind about her and Addam's death warrants. (Though too late for the latter.) He may have been the only one able to form a bridge between Rhaenyra and Corlys after that; Jace is dead, and - all rumours of his paternity aside - he was the only other one besides Daemon who seemed to negotiate with Corlys when he was wroth with Rhaenyra. If Daemon lives and secures Corlys' release, his forces could have secured King's Landing for Rhaenyra - preventing the riots, Joffrey's death, and freeing Daemon to bring Baela and Rhaena to the capital. (And he'd encounter Aegon II in the process.)

Long story short, Daemon's death actually helped the Greens in the end.

But while I don't think he wanted that, I don't think he intended to keep fighting the war at that point. I think he was genuinely hurt and angered by Rhaenyra's demand for Nettles' head, and that was it for him. The war had already taken its toll - who's to say that he was tired of playing the game of thrones by that point, and wouldn't have preferred to just be with Nettles?

No need to apologise by the way. I realise I was a bit rude to you myself, and it was uncalled for. No need to be rude over disagreeing on Daemon Targaryen.

[Skinner]

I just loved the duel over Harrenhal. I had no moral stake in either character, but I really did want Daemon to win and stop Aemond from burning everything. However, he was still a power-hungry opportunist who seduced the heir to gain power for himself. I hope the gods judge him justly...

[Wmarshal]

Again, you're inferring things. I did not call you big headed - "big headed" would mean arrogant, cocky of at least over confident. What I actually posted was that I don't think you come across as objective.

I see.

I noticed you've left out the part about Daemon preparing a small army in response to Corlys' preparing his fleet. Corlys was prepared to use his fleet to try to secure Laenor votes - Daemon responded in kind. Again, I think you're being selective to criticise the character. He did not march on Harrenhal with an army and force the lords to vote for his brother - he made it known that he was willing to take on Corlys if necessary.

And his response was as forceful and battle ready as you can get, he really wanted Viserys as king. I nver stated he marched his army to force his brother's kingship, only he was calling men at arms for his brother's kingship, as he did.

He expected to be named Viserys' heir, based on female claimants being passed over for Viserys. He expected this due to Viserys & Aemma's difficulty - or inability - to sire a son. Given recent Targaryen inheritance history up to that point, it's actually a reasonable expectation.

And he quite possibly would have been, had he not made the cruel "heir for a day" joke. (And before that's dissected as evidence of him being "an evil bastard," there's textual comments that he and Viserys I had been close previously, and I'd say they loved each other still at this point - it's a distasteful joke like many people make. And a stupid one to make, given that he of all people should have known that you can't always trust gold cloaks or whores. In hindsight, he shouldn't have went for a piss up that night.)

he craved to be his heir, Viserys and his bride were not- at the moment- out of the realms of baring a child.

Heir for a day was a horrid response, and compared to some, must would condemn him for it, but words do not make men, it is deeds.

The Kingdom of The Stepstones was as much Corlys' idea, and it was for wealth. Why is "a lust for power" that a knight and warrior would rather carve out a wealthy trading post than be a consort to a lady in the Vale? He was trying to carve out his own wealth there, independent of Westeros. He eventually sought financial aid from the Iron Throne, and if he'd succeeded in his war efforts there it would actually have benefitted the trading galleys going to and from Westeros too.

You can't have it both ways. You can't criticise him when he pushes to be named heir, then criticise him when he goes off to attempt to conquer his own set of small islands with a view to becoming wealthy from the tolls they'd generate.

Colys desired to stop the Triachery and swel his pockets, he crowned Daemon, but him being beyond the idea of his kingship does not seem to fit. That is lusting for power, striving by any means to gain a crown and a kingdom.

He pretty much did both, at the same time. Warring in the SS and trying to seduce Rhaenyra.

What should he have done? Went to be Lady Royce's consort? Neither cared for the other and it seems that the marriage wouldn't have produced children. Does he just twiddle his thumbs in the Vale? He chanced his arm in trying to claim her lands - most husbands would. He mayhaps hoped that Jeyne Arryn's Targaryen lineage would help his case. Either way, he was very wrong.

Look, this point wasn't for evil, mainly power hungry, this was power hungry, churning out a kingdom is as ambitions and power hungry as one can get. I agree of the Vale claim though.

He's as power hungry as just about every lord in the land then - Rhaenyra had plenty competing for her hand.

None of your list convinces me that he's "evil" or "lusting for power" more than any other noble.

He went as far as actually bedding the girl.

As to evil, well that involves one little boy. As well as actually enjoying maiming people.

Again, inference on your part. I did not at any point claim that they married solely because they both had an enemy in the Hightowers - I posted that it was one of the reasons, and that it was a complex situation. There's more than one reason behind the marriage.

Again, a foe of the greens doesn't really make up the fact he really pushed hard to get her.

For the last time - I do not agree with your interpretation of the Daemon/Aemond battle. Obviously, he fought to win. If you'd read any of my previous posts in the thread, I've posted that by killing Aemond he'd eliminate the real heir to Aegon - if Aegon II dies and Aemond lives, the Greens rally behind him. Nowhere have I posted that he intended to lose.

But I've already stated why I don't think he expected to leave Harrenhal. He'd have stood a better chance of that with Sheepstealer alongside Caraxes against Vhagar. Daemon of all people knew the latter dragon well - it was his late wife's dragon. He knew exactly the type of beast he was up against. Instead he defied Rhaenyra by letting Nettles get out of there, when he could have curried favour by bringing her back to KL.

If he intended to win, as we seem to both agree, then he would survive and go on.

And he would stand a better chance to say screw it all by just leaving with Nettles.

Now, as much as I think he knew he'd be going out in a blaze of glory and hell fire, I'm objective enough to acknowledge that there's selfish elements there as well. He puts his feelings towards his paramour above his duties to Rhaenyra, his wife and Queen, and all of their children (including those from previous marriages, as they were essentially one family). Had he instead defeated Aemond with Nettles, he might actually have been able to change her mind about her and Addam's death warrants. (Though too late for the latter.) He may have been the only one able to form a bridge between Rhaenyra and Corlys after that; Jace is dead, and - all rumours of his paternity aside - he was the only other one besides Daemon who seemed to negotiate with Corlys when he was wroth with Rhaenyra. If Daemon lives and secures Corlys' release, his forces could have secured King's Landing for Rhaenyra - preventing the riots, Joffrey's death, and freeing Daemon to bring Baela and Rhaena to the capital. (And he'd encounter Aegon II in the process.)

Long story short, Daemon's death actually helped the Greens in the end.

But while I don't think he wanted that, I don't think he intended to keep fighting the war at that point. I think he was genuinely hurt and angered by Rhaenyra's demand for Nettles' head, and that was it for him. The war had already taken its toll - who's to say that he was tired of playing the game of thrones by that point, and wouldn't have preferred to just be with Nettles?

No need to apologise by the way. I realise I was a bit rude to you myself, and it was uncalled for. No need to be rude over disagreeing on Daemon Targaryen.

As to be selfish, i am not arguing with you about him being selflish, he was always selfish. As to your points, that is the thing, nothing he did really make sense one side or another with are points. Him sending Nettles away but still fighting Aemond seeking to win, he still could walk out if he won to do what he needed. That is why I still think it was his last test, to see what fate had for, triumph or oblivion, power beyond measure or a corpse in the dirt.

I am still sorry, I should not have rude myself, and i see we can see what we see, I can not change your mind, and I feel i can not change mind, I see your points and it has opened the scope, but i can not look past the man who went so far to reach the dream he had so long. I he had survived, he would have had the throne in his hands at last. A man who would do much I can not imagine slumming it in the hills with his Nettles, when he was so closed to his dream, what has done so much to gain.

[C.T. Phipps]

Daemon was a machiavellian Byronic anti-hero who would kill young nephew in vengeance and jumped from a dragon to slay his other nephew.

Aemond was a nutcase vengeful douchebag who murdered his nephew and burnt the Riverlands. For. No. Reason.

Lot of nephew killing..

I think we can get over the cultural taboo of kinslaying when one side starts murdering your family first (and second). At that point, it's a matter of survival.

[Maid So Fair]

I think saying he fought to win is a meaningless statement - people usually don't fight to lose. I would say he hoped to win/survive, while accepting the very real possibility he might not. I think that by this point he was so disillusioned and angry with Rhaenyra that he didn't want to go back to her and would have loved to leave with Nettles, but could not do so honourably (before someone points out that they see Daemon like a dishonourable bastard, I think much like the Hound he had his own code of honour and going down in history as the craven that abandoned his family on the eve of battle clearly went against it). He sent Nettles away not just to protect her but also because it was the quickest (only?) way to draw Aemond out and get this over with. By removing what was seen as the biggest threat to Rhaenyra's rule he would discharge his last duty to his family and be free to pursue other interests - or go down in a blaze of glory.

[Lord Varys]

Wmarshal,

you cannot uphold your portrayal of Daemon as your posts clearly show a very biased view in part directly at odds with the textual evidence. Nothing suggests that

- Daemon did (or wanted to) rule the Realm as Rhaenyra's Prince Consort. There is also nothing suggesting that Rhaenyra was/could be reduced to a figurehead. One could possibly even make a case that Daemon only rallied Rhaenyra's forces in the Riverlands because Rhaenyra had to recover from her miscarriage.

- The textual evidence clearly shows that Daemon sacrificed Caraxes and possibly his own life in the duel against Daemon (Daemon may have had a chance to survive, but Caraxes was dead from the very moment he slammed into Vhagar's side). That's nothing a man trying to take over the Realm would do. Your assessment that Aemond is Daemon's greatest enemy is nothing but wishful thinking. Aemond was a threat to no one. He had a big dragon but no army. All he could do was to terrorize the Riverlands, that's it.

- Nothing suggests that Daemon gave a fig about his sons by Rhaenyra or his daughters by Laena. If he did, or if he wanted to rule through Aegon the Younger, he would have gone back to KL instead of sacrificing his dragon.

- All the stuff from TRP that Daemon was ambitious and after the Iron Throne is an interpretation by historians and his contemporaries. No letter/line from Daemon himself we know of suggests/confirms that everything he did since Viserys became king was done to secure that he (or his line) would control the Iron Throne.

I imagine Rhaenyra-Daemon had a sort of understanding that they could have lovers etc. during their marriage. Daemon reaction to Nettles' death sentence suggests that Rhaenyra had crossed a line there. But his love to Nettles cannot have been that deep, or else he would have gone with her.

[Weirwood Druid]

Neither. While I would support the Blacks because the late king would have wanted it, I can fully understand the standpoint of the Greens; Rhaenyra has shown no responsibility when it comes to ruling, her main heirs are all bastards sired by Strong and she married Daemon Targaryen. Rhaenyra is already a loose canon but Daemon even more so, that's just a recipe for disaster.

In the end the blame falls on Viserys. He was like Tywin Lannister in a lot of ways; while generally a strong ruler he was unable to prevent the mountainous family problems during his time preferring to just ignore them or not see them. While he kept insisting Rhaenrya was his heir his efforts to groom her for it have clearly failed. She went off with Strong, married her uncle Daemon in secrecy and just like Cersei she has no sound judgement and is far too emotional. It was also quite clear that Alicent would continue plotting and not stop until she achieved her goal. A fatal error was also bringing back Otto Hightower. I do find it weird how much trouble the Blacks had in the war, when you go look at the support the Greens had its pretty sad; The Lannisters were the only big house who were to ready to die for the cause, you had the hightowers of course and some foreign aid with Myr, Lys, Tyrosh but most of the big houses all declared for Rhaenyra. While I don't like Daemon Targaryen I have to give him credit for getting rid of the biggest douchecopter of the war; Aemond Targaryen.

What happened to Alicent by the way? its stated no where as far as I can remember what happened to her.