Heresy 147

[Matthew.]

If that entire area were meant to be a "realm of the Others," such would not be the case.

If the white walkers are beings of magic, and sacrifice and blood tend to go hand-in-hand with magic on Planetos, then it may be the case that men being present in the "realm of the Others" is not an inconsistency.

If the Wall was raised in a sudden and magical fashion, then we might think of the Free Folk as the descendants of the poor sods that were trapped on the wrong side of the Wall when it was raised; from that perspective, the Wall isn't just keeping magical beings from passing to the south, it's keeping the early Free Folk penned in the north, like cattle. The price they pay for being unfortunate enough to live in the realm of the Others is that they have to "get right with the gods," like Craster.

[Voice]

That is a logical alternative to my suggestion... hmm

[Black Crow]

An attack at night would easily result in the CotF annihilating the Nightfort. The CotF are fast, quiet, and excellent at disguise. Half the castle would be dead, and probably more, before anyone raised the alarm. The simple truth is that surprise attacks are devastatingly effective in real life.

EDIT: If the black gate only served to prevent the wall from hindering the mobility of CotF, then why would you have the exit hidden right in the middle of the largest castle along the wall. It would make much more sense to just put the exit at some random point south of the wall than in the middle of a potential enemies fortification. Putting the exit inside the Nightfort only makes it easier for the Nightswatch to catch you and throw you back north. Unless you aren't afraid of the Nightswatch not allowing passage, in which case why hide the black gate down a well? Why not put the gate out in the open where you aren't forced to climb so many stairs and the passage can be shorter?

It may be a matter of deliberate misleading on GRRM's part, but there is a very definite feeling in the Nightfort chapter that all of those horrors associated with the Nightfort may be connected with that stairwell, ie; gaining entry to the midst of the place through the Black Gate, which is why I suggested earlier that the door and the password aren't there to provide a secret passage which only the Watch can use, but rather the opposite and that they represent an attempt to block the Black Gate and prevent the dark things coming through.

[Black Crow]

If the white walkers are beings of magic, and sacrifice and blood tend to go hand-in-hand with magic on Planetos, then it may be the case that men being present in the "realm of the Others" is not an inconsistency.

If the Wall was raised in a sudden and magical fashion, then we might think of the Free Folk as the descendants of the poor sods that were trapped on the wrong side of the Wall when it was raised; from that perspective, the Wall isn't just keeping magical beings from passing to the south, it's keeping the early Free Folk penned in the north, like cattle. The price they pay for being unfortunate enough to live in the realm of the Others is that they have to "get right with the gods," like Craster.

Its a possibility certainly, but I think that we also have to take into account the diversity of the Free Folk. The Thenns are atypical in that its stressed both in the text and in the maps that they used to be secure in their valley up in the mountains, ie; they survived up there because whatever went down during the Long Night passed them by through an accident of geography. Others such as the cannibal clans of the Ice River [the Thenns of the HBO version] seem like the the very savage descendants of survivors; they too may be the flotsam of those lost kingdoms. Joruman's people and the "ordinary" Wildlings seem much more akin to those on the south side of the Wall, including the mountain clans, and I'd suspect that they did go beyond the Wall as refugees rather than being trapped or penned by it, but having chosen to do so rather than kneel they have paid the price for an asylum now withdrawn.

[Summer Is Coming!]

If the white walkers are beings of magic, and sacrifice and blood tend to go hand-in-hand with magic on Planetos, then it may be the case that men being present in the "realm of the Others" is not an inconsistency.

If the Wall was raised in a sudden and magical fashion, then we might think of the Free Folk as the descendants of the poor sods that were trapped on the wrong side of the Wall when it was raised; from that perspective, the Wall isn't just keeping magical beings from passing to the south, it's keeping the early Free Folk penned in the north, like cattle. The price they pay for being unfortunate enough to live in the realm of the Others is that they have to "get right with the gods," like Craster.

How quickly could the Wall be raised? With magic I suppose anything is practical, but would we really expect any Free Folk near the Wall to sit on its north side? Also, with the Long Night and the appearance of the Others, would any humans have survived that far north? This would require some First Men living far enough north of the Wall to not make it over before it is built, and to have survived the Others' onslaught in the Long Night.

The Berlin Wall is a good example of a barrier that is built overnight, but I'm wondering if that's what we really see with the Westeros Wall.

[Matthew.]

Joruman's people and the "ordinary" Wildlings seem much more akin to those on the south side of the Wall, including the mountain clans, and I'd suspect that they did go beyond the Wall as refugees rather than being trapped or penned by it, but having chosen to do so rather than kneel they have paid the price for an asylum now withdrawn.

Sure, I think even under the basic premise of the realms north of the Wall being "the realm of the Others," and the men who live there being forced to pay a price for their occupancy, there's still plenty of room for interpretation, including the nature and origins of the Others. I do, however, like the notion of the men north of the Wall being like cattle, because it provides an explanation for a lot of the feelings Ygritte expresses toward the Wall, as well as giving us a reason why Joramun was willing to work with the Stark in Winterfell.

If I'm not mistaken, it was discussed in the previous thread that Joramun was absent from Mance's list of Free Folk leaders who had an interest in conquest, and I think this could again tie in to the overthrow of the Night's King and Night's Queen. In this regard, Joramun may have been something of a liberator, freeing the Wildlings from having to pay the terrible tribute to occupy the lands north of the Wall.

If magic is important to the wights and the white walkers, then it's not unreasonable to assume that they would decline as a threat if there was an extended period where there was nobody north of the Wall with the sorcerous skills/knowledge to raise more wws, and nobody willing to sacrifice their sons.

[Matthew.]

This would require some First Men living far enough north of the Wall to not make it over before it is built, and to have survived the Others' onslaught in the Long Night.

True, and I can really only see three possible options: some portion of the FM were granted protection in the burrows of the Singers, some of the FM were able to hide or resist, or some of the FM north of the Wall paid a Craster-style tribute in order to be left alone.

Under the latter scenario, we could assume that there were pockets of FM that were "right with the cold gods," and thus able to survive the Long Night, but that doesn't mean they were happy about the situation.

It's also possible that the Wildlings (some of them, anyway) themselves were responsible for the first appearance of the Others; remember, the LN was apparently a global event, so it may be the case that rather than the Others bringing the Long Night, they first arose as a response to it.

We have precedent for the spontaneous formation of both a faith and a system of magic, with the Faceless Men in the mines of Valyria; it may be that desperate and starving men huddled in caves and ringforts began sacrificing sons to the winter, only to have some those sons return with burning blue eyes.

Those FM willing to pay the price to get right with the cold gods would be provided food and protection, while those that weren't right with the gods were raided, with this unnatural raiding party gradually expanding their sphere of influence southward, as the Long Night dragged on.

[Black Crow]

Sure, I think even under the basic premise of the realms north of the Wall being "the realm of the Others," and the men who live there being forced to pay a price for their occupancy, there's still plenty of room for interpretation, including the nature and origins of the Others. I do, however, like the notion of the men north of the Wall being like cattle, because it provides an explanation for a lot of the feelings Ygritte expresses toward the Wall, as well as giving us a reason why Joramun was willing to work with the Stark in Winterfell.

If I'm not mistaken, it was discussed in the previous thread that Joramun was absent from Mance's list of Free Folk leaders who had an interest in conquest, and I think this could again tie in to the overthrow of the Night's King and Night's Queen. In this regard, Joramun may have been something of a liberator, freeing the Wildlings from having to pay the terrible tribute to occupy the lands north of the Wall.

If magic is important to the wights and the white walkers, then it's not unreasonable to assume that they would decline as a threat if there was an extended period where there was nobody north of the Wall with the sorcerous skills/knowledge to raise more wws, and nobody willing to sacrifice their sons.

I'm still inclined to read from both this and from Ygritte's resentment and contempt for kneelers, that Joruman and his people originally lived below the Wall and allied with the Starks of Winterfell to bring down the Nights King, but then went beyond the Wall rather than kneel to Winterfell. That would also account for the term King beyond the Wall if he and those who came after him were the leaders of those who had chosen or been forced to go beyond the Wall - as distinct from the likes of the Thenns and the cannibal clans and the like who were already/always had been there.

And with that, to bed. Good night all.

[Summer Is Coming!]

It's also possible that the Wildlings (some of them, anyway) themselves were responsible for the first appearance of the Others; remember, the LN was apparently a global event, so it may be the case that rather than the Others bringing the Long Night, they first arose as a response to it.

We have precedent for the spontaneous formation of both a faith and a system of magic, with the Faceless Men in the mines of Valyria; it may be that desperate and starving men huddled in caves and ringforts began sacrificing sons to the winter, only to have some those sons return with burning blue eyes.

Those FM willing to pay the price to get right with the cold gods would be provided food and protection, while those that weren't right with the gods were raided, with this unnatural raiding party gradually expanding their sphere of influence southward, as the Long Night dragged on.

Very interesting idea about the idea of a sudden appearance of Others as a response to the Long Night. It does raise the question of the Long Night's cause though if the Others are not its cause.

[romantic]

I haven't kept track of all Heresy threads but has there ever been any discussion about whether there might be a difference in the Night's Watch between the brothers who have made a vow to the seven gods and those, a far lesser number, that have made a vow to the Old Gods in front of a weirwood and whom might be called the 'true' (aka Old God forsworn) Night's Watch. There seem to be very few 'true' NW left. Once they have left the Wall (though death, desertion or simply being sent south), the wall might fail. The 'true' NW might also be the only ones able to pass through the Black Gate.

[Joe Pine]

I haven't kept track of all Heresy threads but has there ever been any discussion about whether there might be a difference in the Night's Watch between the brothers who have made a vow to the seven gods and those, a far lesser number, that have made a vow to the Old Gods in front of a weirwood and whom might be called the 'true' (aka Old God forsworn) Night's Watch. There seem to be very few 'true' NW left. Once they have left the Wall (though death, desertion or simply being sent south), the wall might fail. The 'true' NW might also be the only ones able to pass through the Black Gate.

Only difficulty that I see with that is that when the NW was at its fullest complement (say 300 years ago) with Knights, Squires and men from the Southron Kingdoms as its largest grouping who would have been Faith of Seven. It would leave quite a low number of Northern Men as your true NW able to enter or exit the Nightfort gate.

The NW is a brotherhood, all say the same oath, but attest it in different ways.

(Out of curiosity how would an Ironborn swear his oath? at water? - and would the NW have had a very few members from the free cities as members, as mercenary troops seemed to fight in previous conflicts on Westeros, certainly most recently the Bloody Mummers or Brave Companions)

[MaesterSam]

(...)

I didn't say it was to usher people. I think it was the Singers way of making sure they could still book safe passage to the southern end of the lands that were once their own. They decided to help the Last Hero, but they didn't want to lock themselves out of their own land.

Night's King likely misused it of course. And I think that misuse may be a big clue as to the identity of the man who's name must not be spoken.

About that name that must not be spoken.... I wonder what would happen if you approach the Black Gate and it asks "who are you" and you said the forbidden name. :devil:

[Matthew.]

I haven't kept track of all Heresy threads but has there ever been any discussion about whether there might be a difference in the Night's Watch between the brothers who have made a vow to the seven gods and those, a far lesser number, that have made a vow to the Old Gods in front of a weirwood and whom might be called the 'true' (aka Old God forsworn) Night's Watch. There seem to be very few 'true' NW left. Once they have left the Wall (though death, desertion or simply being sent south), the wall might fail. The 'true' NW might also be the only ones able to pass through the Black Gate.

My initial reaction was that the distinction isn't important, but on further thought, I think you may really be onto something. Sam himself used to keep the Seven, yet he chooses to go with Jon and give his oath at the weirwood grove, which seems to be a portentous place; not only do Sam and Jon and give their oaths there, it's also where Othor and Jaffer are discovered, but not where they died. And, of course, it's Sam that needs to open the Black Gate on everyone else's behalf.

The grove itself is also a little unusual. Generally, we've only seen one tree in any given grove with a face: the heart tree. The Wall's grove, however, has nine face-bearing weirwoods, and one of the only other places we're told of in the text with so many faces is at the God's Eye, the site of the Pact, which was supposedly concluded by carving faces into all of the weirwoods.

Is the weirwood grove north of the Wall the site of a second treaty made during the Long Night, the site of Pact 2.0?

[MaesterSam]

Add to which, later on we also have Sam getting twitchy because Stannis wants him to reveal the magic gate and he's not sure that he can. I'm also inclined to think that this is relevant to Leaf's saying that Coldhands died a long time ago and that knowledge of the gate was lost and forgotten a long time ago too and that those who evacuated the place in favour of the new castle at Long Lake were unaware of its existence, because that really is recent history and not like to be unrecorded or forgotten. And that in turn also suggests that the northern entrance was hidden not just to non-members of the Watch but to anybody who didn't know the trick.

Very interesting point. It appears that the NW has been unaware of the Black Gate's existence for some time now- even while the Nightfort was still occupied. Which supports the idea of it being glamoured, as surely some brother occasionally goes down the well to see what's there. Unless nothing is there, just stairs into water. That would make it very un-interesting, and unnecessary to even mention to anyone else.

This is more like my own thinking, except rather than being the CotF way to infiltrate and attack the Watch, which would only lead to dead CotF, I think it was simply a way to ensure the Wall/Watch didn't hinder their passage.

Once the well is filled, only Patchface would be fool enough to go looking "under the sea" for it.

If you keep at this for another heresy or two, I think eventually you'll convince me. :D There is certainly some evidence to support your theory.

I agree the CotF built it- after all, who else would build a weirwood with a face? But I would think they would want to come out somewhere more private.

Unless of course they did choose a private spot, deep down in some shaft where nobody would ever look. But then men found out and built a castle around the shaft and turned it into a well.

If the white walkers are beings of magic, and sacrifice and blood tend to go hand-in-hand with magic on Planetos, then it may be the case that men being present in the "realm of the Others" is not an inconsistency.

If the Wall was raised in a sudden and magical fashion, then we might think of the Free Folk as the descendants of the poor sods that were trapped on the wrong side of the Wall when it was raised; from that perspective, the Wall isn't just keeping magical beings from passing to the south, it's keeping the early Free Folk penned in the north, like cattle. The price they pay for being unfortunate enough to live in the realm of the Others is that they have to "get right with the gods," like Craster.

Nice idea- the wildlings being left up there on purpose as a sort of sacrifice. No wonder they hate the kneelers!

[Voice]

I'm still inclined to read from both this and from Ygritte's resentment and contempt for kneelers, that Joruman and his people originally lived below the Wall and allied with the Starks of Winterfell to bring down the Nights King, but then went beyond the Wall rather than kneel to Winterfell. That would also account for the term King beyond the Wall if he and those who came after him were the leaders of those who had chosen or been forced to go beyond the Wall - as distinct from the likes of the Thenns and the cannibal clans and the like who were already/always had been there.

And with that, to bed. Good night all.

In thinking about this, Night's King (possibly aka Brandon) may well have been the culprit forcing northmen to kneel. Old Nan's version (NK bending the NW to his will through sorcery) may simply be a non-wildling version of the source of division between "First Men Kneelers" and "First Men Free Folk". I think we can all agree that during NK's reign everyone was speaking the old tongue, be they Stark or non.

[Voice]

I haven't kept track of all Heresy threads but has there ever been any discussion about whether there might be a difference in the Night's Watch between the brothers who have made a vow to the seven gods and those, a far lesser number, that have made a vow to the Old Gods in front of a weirwood and whom might be called the 'true' (aka Old God forsworn) Night's Watch. There seem to be very few 'true' NW left. Once they have left the Wall (though death, desertion or simply being sent south), the wall might fail. The 'true' NW might also be the only ones able to pass through the Black Gate.

Yes there was some good discussion on that topic, I want to say around Heresy 120 or so. The Butcher Crow had a nice topic on it as well. Not sure where he went, but if you glance back there and see his name, click on it. I think it was called "an oath written in blood" or something similar.

In context of the thousands of years the Wall has been manned by the Watch, I think one could safely assume the number of brothers sworn before the Old Gods far outnumber those who've sworn in the Sept. And, I think you are correct to assume only a brother sworn before a heart tree can open the Black Gate. Totally agree there.

[Voice]

Only difficulty that I see with that is that when the NW was at its fullest complement (say 300 years ago) with Knights, Squires and men from the Southron Kingdoms as its largest grouping who would have been Faith of Seven. It would leave quite a low number of Northern Men as your true NW able to enter or exit the Nightfort gate.

The NW is a brotherhood, all say the same oath, but attest it in different ways.

(Out of curiosity how would an Ironborn swear his oath? at water? - and would the NW have had a very few members from the free cities as members, as mercenary troops seemed to fight in previous conflicts on Westeros, certainly most recently the Bloody Mummers or Brave Companions)

I'd argue that until the last century, the blood of the Night's Watch brotherhood has been predominately that of the First Men.

[Voice]

About that name that must not be spoken.... I wonder what would happen if you approach the Black Gate and it asks "who are you" and you said the forbidden name. :devil:

My guess is that it would open and grant you passage to the place that lies north and north and north and beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world.

[Voice]

Very interesting point. It appears that the NW has been unaware of the Black Gate's existence for some time now- even while the Nightfort was still occupied. Which supports the idea of it being glamoured, as surely some brother occasionally goes down the well to see what's there. Unless nothing is there, just stairs into water. That would make it very un-interesting, and unnecessary to even mention to anyone else.

If you keep at this for another heresy or two, I think eventually you'll convince me. :D There is certainly some evidence to support your theory.

I agree the CotF built it- after all, who else would build a weirwood with a face? But I would think they would want to come out somewhere more private.

Unless of course they did choose a private spot, deep down in some shaft where nobody would ever look. But then men found out and built a castle around the shaft and turned it into a well.

Thing is, at the time of construction, the Singers and Men were quite unified. The Annals suggest this unity extended for quite some time too, given that the Night's Watch continued trading with them, and fought the Singers' 'natural enemy' (Giants), after sending their own 'inhuman one' into retreat (Others).

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Very interesting idea about the idea of a sudden appearance of Others as a response to the Long Night. It does raise the question of the Long Night's cause though if the Others are not its cause.

Hopefully the answer will be in the next book. If the Long Night was not the beginning of irregular seasons then I would say someone took advantage. The current stirring began in the summer and seems to be spreading. Another good question is who knew a long winter was coming? Maybe someone with greensight or greendreams? (or bluedreams?)