Heresy 150 and more fallout from that letter

[Matthew.]

If this is indeed the redacted portion, it also makes sense that the final battle is, as suspected, Winterfell. The center of the storm.

I have to agree; at the least, everything converging on Winterfell feels appropriate, since Winterfell is where we meet all of our major 'actors,' except for Daenerys. The only other locations that make sense to me would be the Wall, or the Trident.

Given that, just last year, GRRM was speculating publicly about the need for a feature length film budget to wrap things up, as the standard season budget spread over 10 episodes might not be enough, I'm guessing that what he plans for the ending is big, and visually expensive.

[Eira Seren]

I agree the style fits, and may very well be the redacted portion. And if not, I agree it must come from GRRM simply because there was no one else alive who could have formulated those conclusions so early on.

If this is indeed the redacted portion, it also makes sense that the final battle is, as suspected, Winterfell. The center of the storm. There are many peripheral conflicts taking place now to distract us from the snowdrifts, but I've always said the snow will help the Others as much as it will hurt the armies of Men. They can hide wights beneath it, walk upon the surface without leaving tracks, and require no bodily nourishment (except maybe blood...maybe).

What is really interesting is the unification he mentions. Wolf and Lion hunting together is hard to imagine. Maester and Greenseer working as one is even harder to picture. I can see Dany fighting to save her new-won kingdom though. And I can see her dying in the effort.

I agree, and that's why I think they must be right, it's being used as a blurb. It reads a lot like the back of a book cover, also if you look at the beginning sentences:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning. . .

The first sentence is totally awkward, so it could have been just casually written in letter form, but doesn't really seem like GRRM's style. It's like when reading a student paper and you go . . . ehm, this bit doesn't sound like my student. . . . and generally, it's not. Also, he promises heavily that the series will be epic in the letter, but nowhere else there does he outright preen and say it's the "most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings". . . this sounds more like something his agent would write in an introduction or email to get someone else to read it, or again, the publisher blurb on the back of the book cover. . .

. . . . Apart from the mad queen the Targaryens don't get a look in.

Now once again things have changed. The bit about winning a kingdom being easier than ruling it sounds like Dany in Mereen rather than a possible Dany in Westeros and perhaps her decision to stay and try make something of Mereen may represent a radical shift, but notwithstanding the absence of Jon Snow as the Prince that was Promised [by whatever name] is significant.

. . .

Leaving Dany in Mereen might make it easier for him to finish the series, though. . . she'd be better positioned to go the the heart of fire, and the folks in the north can deal with the heart of ice.

What kind of address is "amazon.in"?

ETA: Corrected ".ln" to ".in". India?

Yep yep

[Urrax2]

Japanese Amazon is even more pessimistic: Release date March 2017.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/000648610X/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en_JP

[Joe Pine]

Here's what I make of that 6th paragraph

3. and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

This seems to set us up for the next book, and speaks to our ideas of cold and wind being necessary for, or connected to, their advancement. I said last thread that I think the Cold is like their mother's milk. But perhaps the cold icy fingers of winter -- snow, frost, and Ice -- are more like the strands of a web. The web of winter growing from the far north, clutching further and further southward. Upon that web, the Original Others ride down upon their ice spiders.

Spot on. It sounds like The Cold'

[Joe Pine]

I have to agree; at the least, everything converging on Winterfell feels appropriate, since Winterfell is where we meet all of our major 'actors,' except for Daenerys. The only other locations that make sense to me would be the Wall, or the Trident.

Given that, just last year, GRRM was speculating publicly about the need for a feature length film budget to wrap things up, as the standard season budget spread over 10 episodes might not be enough, I'm guessing that what he plans for the ending is big, and visually expensive.

I'll differ. The winter winds trapping Stannis in the Wolfswood, The battle on the Ice, there's a battle to be had at Winterfell to wrest it from Roose. I think that's a change we've seen over the 21 years

If the Cold and Others only make it as far as Winterfell, it suggests they're not credible and that's what keeps bringing me back to Harrenhal. A huge, unlucky castle destroyed on the day the Targaryen's arrive. Slap in middle of the kingdoms and where we've already seen some action.

[Voice]

I'm not sure about some of this. If it goes back to 1993 then some things have obviously changed in the meantime and that may include GRRM's original concept of the ending. As the story has grown larger and more complex a climactic battle to end it all might be too easy and too cheesy. The other problem I have is that it appears that Winds of Winter is going to open with the battle of Winterfell. That being so are we to have another or if the resolution doesn't lie here is the eventual resolution going to be more complex.

Might it be the case that having set up a "Dark Lord/ Ultimate Evil" scenario in the initial synopsis GRRM has since decided to subvert it [in line with his stated views] and produce a more complex ending.

Without a doubt. Our only difference is that I see him doing both, instead of one or the other. A climactic ending to the battle (I seriously doubt the battle if Winterfell will be short), and that battle, and the victory obtained by it, will be subverted in terms of peripheral battles (Meereen, fAegon) and likely tempered with POV deaths/tragedy. One could argue literally everything in ASOIAF is subversive lol, but there's still a song to sing.

[Voice]

Just to take this a little further, once again something which is conspicuous by its absence in all of this is the mystery of Jon Snow [other than the removal of a barrier between him and Arya], of Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised or any other return of a prophesied hero, and no union of Ice and Fire. Rather its Stark and Lannister who combine, maester and greenseer. Apart from the mad queen the Targaryens don't get a look in.

Now once again things have changed. The bit about winning a kingdom being easier than ruling it sounds like Dany in Mereen rather than a possible Dany in Westeros and perhaps her decision to stay and try make something of Mereen may represent a radical shift, but notwithstanding the absence of Jon Snow as the Prince that was Promised [by whatever name] is significant.

We and others have argued before that the uncovering of the secret king is way too much of a cheesy cliche. What we find in both passages is that there is no such cliche but that the story is to be brought to a resolution without recourse to the cheese-board. I'm happy to acknowledge that the present story is working out differently in some respects and I'm more than happy to speculate as to the new directions, but, and its a very big BUT. I find it very difficult to believe that having sketched out a story which successfully avoids one of the biggest and most cheesy of all cliches, he should then turn around to subvert and indeed cheapen his vision by putting it in later.

I agree with all of this. I'd say there's still plenty of time for Dany's Dothraki invasion though. I felt ADWD left her poised for just that. I think she will abandon Meereen to the Meereenese.

[Voice]

These are some very chilling particulars. It's an interesting concept (chilling as I myself am terrified of spiders)

My wife is too. I think GRRM would relish tapping into that sort of soul-deep instinctual fear, and emboldening it with inhuman Others. So many terrible possibilities. And, so much pretext for them (ice spiders, Others hating anything with hot blood, the letter's implication that the greatest danger is them eradicating all "life").

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What is really interesting is the unification he mentions. Wolf and Lion hunting together is hard to imagine. Maester and Greenseer working as one is even harder to picture. I can see Dany fighting to save her new-won kingdom though. And I can see her dying in the effort.

The unification of said groups are a bit hard to take. Yet it could still happen in different ways. I mean, I doubt we see one giant army of Westeros against the cold ones, but battles on different fronts with different leaders and maybe an overall plan. (That plan being to survive)... Tyrion and Sansa could work together. Tyrion has shown his usefulness, the chain and wildfire, designing special saddles. Jaime in the north and Maybe at the Wall even.

Maesters would have to go back to their roots and Sam may be the one to combine the knowledge of the learned and the talented.

Funny thing is all that wildfire stashed in King's Landing could be of use against those pesky wights. If only some dragon queen doesn't burn the city down.

I could see it now,

Jaime - "let's get this cache of wildfire outta here."

Dany on Drogon- "Dany burn? Dany Burn!"

Jaime - "Screw this, I'm going North. Let her be 'queen of ashes'."

[Voice]

I have to agree; at the least, everything converging on Winterfell feels appropriate, since Winterfell is where we meet all of our major 'actors,' except for Daenerys. The only other locations that make sense to me would be the Wall, or the Trident.

Given that, just last year, GRRM was speculating publicly about the need for a feature length film budget to wrap things up, as the standard season budget spread over 10 episodes might not be enough, I'm guessing that what he plans for the ending is big, and visually expensive.

Great point. I'd guess that Stannis' forthcoming battle is only the southern version of the massacre at the Fist. It will be brutal, but only a precursor of the larger battle.

Another chilling thought is that we don't actually know if the Wall works. When it was built, the Others were already in full retreat. I like Winterfell as the real location for the Battle.

And how about this: what if Jon is drawn to the crypts because the Others are drawn to the crypts? Perhaps the location itself is the goal, rather than holding some secret (or harp/egg lol).

[Voice]

I'll differ. The winter winds trapping Stannis in the Wolfswood, The battle on the Ice, there's a battle to be had at Winterfell to wrest it from Roose. I think that's a change we've seen over the 21 years

If the Cold and Others only make it as far as Winterfell, it suggests they're not credible and that's what keeps bringing me back to Harrenhal. A huge, unlucky castle destroyed on the day the Targaryen's arrive. Slap in middle of the kingdoms and where we've already seen some action.

I think we'll see wights south of the Neck, and maybe a few Neverborn, but I'm liking the idea of a Winterfell being the very goal of the contest.

[Eira Seren]

My wife is too. I think GRRM would relish tapping into that sort of soul-deep instinctual fear, and emboldening it with inhuman Others. So many terrible possibilities. And, so much pretext for them (ice spiders, Others hating anything with hot blood, the letter's implication that the greatest danger is them eradicating all "life").

:) Yes, it's a very deep core sort of fear, there was an incident when I was about four. . . and GRRM's spiders are guaranteed not to be the daddy longlegs variety. I tell you, I knew when I woke up suddenly that something wasn't right . . . Still cannot watch that part of LOTR. . .

The question am now trying to get through, is what are the Others, actually, because what they're perceived to be will probably fall on the side of the instinctual fears

whereas what they may be. . . that could be something else entirely. Certainly not nice and cuddly, no, but. Though after all that buildup, he's going to have to give us something quite dreadful.

[Eira Seren]

. . .

And how about this: what if Jon is drawn to the crypts because the Others are drawn to the crypts? Perhaps the location itself is the goal, rather than holding some secret (or harp/egg lol).

Oh, that could be well worth investigating.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I agree, and that's why I think they must be right, it's being used as a blurb. It reads a lot like the back of a book cover, also if you look at the beginning sentences:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning. . .

The first sentence is totally awkward, so it could have been just casually written in letter form, but doesn't really seem like GRRM's style. It's like when reading a student paper and you go . . . ehm, this bit doesn't sound like my student. . . . and generally, it's not. Also, he promises heavily that the series will be epic in the letter, but nowhere else there does he outright preen and say it's the "most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings". . . this sounds more like something his agent would write in an introduction or email to get someone else to read it, or again, the publisher blurb on the back of the book cover. . .

:agree:

Leaving Dany in Mereen might make it easier for him to finish the series, though. . . she'd be better positioned to go the the heart of fire, and the folks in the north can deal with the heart of ice.

It could be. It may be that Dany comes to Westeros at the end of the story to find it destroyed. But I think she will make it just in time to experience the battles in the south and the cold winds from the north. Maybe she will help, maybe she will hinder.

GRRM has cut out Dany's trip to Asshai, which I think was the original Mordors of the story. Beyond the Wall and Asshai.

[Voice]

The unification of said groups are a bit hard to take. Yet it could still happen in different ways. I mean, I doubt we see one giant army of Westeros against the cold ones, but battles on different fronts with different leaders and maybe an overall plan. (That plan being to survive)... Tyrion and Sansa could work together. Tyrion has shown his usefulness, the chain and wildfire, designing special saddles. Jaime in the north and Maybe at the Wall even.

Maesters would have to go back to their roots and Sam may be the one to combine the knowledge of the learned and the talented.

Funny thing is all that wildfire stashed in King's Landing could be of use against those pesky wights. If only some dragon queen doesn't burn the city down.

I could see it now,

Jaime - "let's get this cache of wildfire outta here."

Dany on Drogon- "Dany burn? Dany Burn!"

Jaime - "Screw this, I'm going North. Let her be 'queen of ashes'."

Great point, it need not be literal, arm-in-arm teamwork. Sam, the Maester in training, has already cooperated with two greenseers by bringing Bran thru for BR. And Jaime has assisted the wolf, sort of, by sending Brienne after Sansa. Still hard to swallow any real togetherness for wolf and lion though.

[wolfmaid7]

Double post

[wolfmaid7]

Well if this aspect of the story remains the same we are back to square on who are The Others.

We know and i'm super smiling about this because to pull a Feather Crystal i've been saying the wws aren't raising the dead.

And that whatever is doing it is using the wind as a vehicle.That but about the Others riding the wind another thing ive been saying with respect to Greenseer/Skinchanging abilities I still say a Greenseer is involved and maybe as there is a collection of them when it comes to the Winter Greenseer as well.

[Voice]

:) Yes, it's a very deep core sort of fear, there was an incident when I was about four. . . and GRRM's spiders are guaranteed not to be the daddy longlegs variety. I tell you, I knew when I woke up suddenly that something wasn't right . . . Still cannot watch that part of LOTR. . .

The question am now trying to get through, is what are the Others, actually, because what they're perceived to be will probably fall on the side of the instinctual fears

whereas what they may be. . . that could be something else entirely. Certainly not nice and cuddly, no, but. Though after all that buildup, he's going to have to give us something quite dreadful.

Agreed. I think they are Martin's incarnation of true unremorseful cruelty -- an incredibly beautiful, eerie, cold fear-incarnate, inhuman and inhumane.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'll differ. The winter winds trapping Stannis in the Wolfswood, The battle on the Ice, there's a battle to be had at Winterfell to wrest it from Roose. I think that's a change we've seen over the 21 years

If the Cold and Others only make it as far as Winterfell, it suggests they're not credible and that's what keeps bringing me back to Harrenhal. A huge, unlucky castle destroyed on the day the Targaryen's arrive. Slap in middle of the kingdoms and where we've already seen some action.

Thats an interesting idea. And near by the God's Eye with its Isle of Faces. I do think the cold war will move beyond Winterfell. When all frozen hell breaks loose in the North, I think the Winds could move even further south and the Neck and even Moat Cailin might be part of the picture. The Neck has its old connections to magic: the ancient black basalt structure, the Hammer and the cotf calling it down from the Neck, the crannogmen who drew close to the cotf, the cold spirits at Moat Cailin etc.

It would be a good place to funnel the enemy or for the enemy to prevent aid from the south.

I guess it depends on how much GRRM will write before he wraps up the Song.

[Voice]

Well if this aspect of the story remains the same we are back to square on who are The Others.

We know and i'm super smiling about this because to pull a Feather Crystal i've been saying the wws aren't raising the dead.

And that whatever is doing it is using the wind as a vehicle.That but about the Others riding the wind another thing ive been saying with respect to Greenseer/Skinchanging abilities I still say a Greenseer is involved and maybe as there is a collection of them when it comes to the Winter Greenseer as well.

I'd say the latter synopsis rules out greenseers as puppet masters due to the mention of maesters and greenseers working together, against the threat of Others. It may have changed, and alternatives are always possible, but it doesn't look likely . . .