Heresy 154

[Elaena Targaryen]

I couldn't agree more. I've fallen behind in the discussion due to my recurring need for sleep, lol, but will address this because I think it will answer some of the comments made last thread...plus it's a really cool part of AGOT:

“There was a knight once who couldn’t see,” Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. “Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once.”

“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.”

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. “Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.” The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking. “Hodor won’t...” “Go down into the crypts. When I woke, I told him to take me down, to see if Father was truly there. At first he didn’t know what I was saying, but I got him to the steps by telling him to go here and go there, only then he wouldn’t go down. He just stood on the top step and said ‘Hodor,’ like he was scared of the dark, but I had a torch. It made me so mad I almost gave him a swat in the head, like Old Nan is always doing.” He saw the way the maester was frowning and hurriedly added, “I didn’t, though.”

“Good. Hodor is a man, not a mule to be beaten.” “In the dream I flew down with the crow, but I can’t do that when I’m awake,” Bran explained. “Why would you want to go down to the crypts?” “I told you. To look for Father.”

Another fascinating passage...we have:

Symeon Star Eyes --> dreams --> 3EC --> Dead Ned being "sad" about "something to do about Jon"

None of that seems disturbing at all, right? Well, except for Bran's recently-deceased father's soul feeling unable to rest because of an obligation to Jon, of course ;) Perhaps that alone is why "the dream had been deeply disturbing." Seems reason enough...

If not, then what would it be? Black magic surrounding Jon's birth? That seems like quite a stretch, as neither Lyanna nor Jon are said to be present in the dream. Only Ned. And Ned's sadness.

If we humor the assumption Jon does appear in the dream, or Lyanna, or somehow, Jon's birth itself, even though we have nothing to base such assumptions on, then I do agree that the disturbing element is not Jon's parentage. The 3EC entered Bran's bedchamber...led him down to the crypts...where his father was sad about Jon. Then somehow Jon was also there, in the crypts? Or the manner of his conception/birth? This doesn't ring true for me.

I think the "deeply disturbing" element could be Ned's 'unrest' itself. Or, even more likely in my opinion, it could be what or who-ever is waiting down beneath those old kings of winter, it/he/she calls to Jon, making Ned feel sad.

I included a bit more of the passage because it could all be foreshadowing. Jon may soon awaken as Jon Snow-Eyes, with gleaming red rubies in his sockets. Or not, lol.

The last part foreshadows Bran's desire to use Hodor like a mule. And Luwin gives Bran a very Haggon-like admonition, warning Bran that it is an abomination to use a fellow person like a mule.

There is also this http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

January 03, 1999

Hodor and the Crypts

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after.

[WeaselPie]

...

I think the "deeply disturbing" element could be Ned's 'unrest' itself. Or, even more likely in my opinion, it could be what or who-ever is waiting down beneath those old kings of winter, it/he/she calls to Jon, making Ned feel sad.

Possible. It would be deeply disturbing to talk with a dead parent about, say, their own death. But this is about Jon, who is alive and well. Why would Ned be so disturbed, since Jon had a privileged upbringing, an education, love, and the secrecy of his birth that Ned supposedly promised? A very old question at this point.

Ned warning Bran about something down in the dark calling to Jon, not a bad take on the scene. Which brings us back to, what thing, down in the dark, is calling Jon and why? I don't think a malevolent magical element can be dismissed, since we know that those elements truly exist in the story.

[Voice]

In H153, I said:

then the Starks have their shadowbabies indeed... :devil:

Maester Sam added:

Now that's an interesting idea. Maybe if we reinterpret the standard idea to mean human priestesses laying with Others for magical purposes to bring forth some version of shadowbabies (just as Mel and Stannis do), rather than actually procreating and leaving offspring... it works a little better. As, presumably, the priestesses could withstand the cold of the Others more reasonably than a normal human woman could, which has always been the iffy part.

Or the other way around. Male human sorcerers (GS's, likely including NK and his many aliases) + Other priestesses (NQ). But again, I prefer the idea of it happening to create "a magic servant" rather than raising cute little half-human babies which then somehow disappeared or whatever.

And WeaselPie further added:

Well. This is fascinating. And I need to add... Mel's shadowbaby pregnancy was highly accelerated. I don't know if my brain can absorb that. Of course it could work very differently with icebabies. But I love this line of thought regardless.

This is exactly what I was thinking as well. And indeed the purpose of these matings is not simply procreation :)

The highly accelerated pregnancy, birth, maturation into a sword-wielding warrior process demonstrated by Mel and her shadowbaby provide the perfect solution for the creation of ww's on the fly. It still leaves us with the quandary of the Original Others who came in the long night, and their origin. But this does serve as a great parallel for their underling white walkers, and the possible usage of Craster's sons...

Let's say a priestess (human or Other, doesn't matter), lays with a human male, she can sacrifice her biologically human offspring to the Others. This gives us the NK/NQ scenario. NK was a normal human by day, after all.

Now let's say Others, with or without said priestess, want to create their infamous ww's, but they want something with more of a physical presence than a mere shadowbaby. How do we pay for life? Dany awoke dragons from stone, so why can't Others awaken ww's from sacrificed infants?

[Black Crow]

Completely agreed BC. Jon is but 1 of the 5 central characters who's arc are central to the conclusion of the series. But, of those 5, only one's parentage seems to be tied with that arc that is tied to that conclusion. Again, if the secret is simply, "Lyanna's Jon's mother," it's hard for me to see what the effect might be in terms of Jon's fifth of the conclusion. Even on a personal level for Jon, would it matter that much if he were the bastard of the dead Lord Stark or his sister? I don't see the significance.

I think the difference is that as the bastard son of Lord Stark he was brought up to rejection, but somehow I feel as the bastard son of Lyanna he belongs because his mother was a Stark, just as was Bael's son.

[Black Crow]

There is also this http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

January 03, 1999

Hodor and the Crypts

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after.

Rather suggests something was in there at that time, perhaps the same something that rendered him mute in the first place.

[Voice]

There is also this http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Hodor_and_the_Crypts

January 03, 1999

Hodor and the Crypts

After rereading both AGOT and ACOK I was wondering about one question: Why was Hodor not afraid of the crypts under Winterfell at the end of ACOK? In AGOT Hodor was very afraid of the crypts, he wouldn't take Bran down there, but in ACOK he stayed with Bran and Rickon in the crypt for quite a while, how did he stay there if he was so afraid?

Hodor was only afraid of the crypts =at that specific time.= Not before and not after.

Thank you for that. Clearly the "deeply disturbing" element was still present after Bran awoke. Lyanna's ghost scolding Ned's might be it, but I think not. Ned's cryptic sadness, Jon's cryptic invitation: they seem to both have their origin in the moment just after Ser Ilyn decapitated the Lord of Winterfell.

[WeaselPie]

A little SSM, albeit fan-reported, interlude, from 2007, well after ditching the 5 year gap.

The concept of heroes and villains is a false dichotomy, in George's opinion. Real human beings are a mixture of good and evil.

There will be no gods on stage in the books and the reader will have to decide whether there are gods or not.

[Voice]

Possible. It would be deeply disturbing to talk with a dead parent about, say, their own death. But this is about Jon, who is alive and well. Why would Ned be so disturbed, since Jon had a privileged upbringing, an education, love, and the secrecy of his birth that Ned supposedly promised? A very old question at this point.

Ned warning Bran about something down in the dark calling to Jon, not a bad take on the scene. Which brings us back to, what thing, down in the dark, is calling Jon and why? I don't think a malevolent magical element can be dismissed, since we know that those elements truly exist in the story.

The romantic in me thinks it is Lyanna calling out to Jon, making Ned feel sad. It is always sad seeing your loved ones on life support. Unnatural. Deeply disturbing.

The logic in me thinks it is Lyanna's corpse, entwined in weirwood roots, as Winterfell's heart tree draws out her nutrients and blood-memory. Which is also deeply disturbing.

In any case, the disturbing element in Bran's dream is not Jon's parentage. There is something deeply disturbing, it seems to be in the crypts, it seems to make Ned sad, it seems to invite Jon, and it seems to scare Hodor. But what doesn't frighten Hodor? lol

[Black Crow]

Its pretty much

A little SSM, albeit fan-reported, interlude, from 2007, well after ditching the 5 year gap.

The concept of heroes and villains is a false dichotomy, in George's opinion. Real human beings are a mixture of good and evil.

There will be no gods on stage in the books and the reader will have to decide whether there are gods or not.

Its pretty much what he said in this interview [apologies for lack of a link]

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

[WeaselPie]

In H153, I said:

Maester Sam added:

And WeaselPie further added:

This is exactly what I was thinking as well. And indeed the purpose of these matings is not simply procreation :)

The highly accelerated pregnancy, birth, maturation into a sword-wielding warrior process demonstrated by Mel and her shadowbaby provide the perfect solution for the creation of ww's on the fly. It still leaves us with the quandary of the Original Others who came in the long night, and their origin. But this does serve as a great parallel for their underling white walkers, and the possible usage of Craster's sons...

Let's say a priestess (human or Other, doesn't matter), lays with a human male, she can sacrifice her biologically human offspring to the Others. This gives us the NK/NQ scenario. NK was a normal human by day, after all.

Now let's say Others, with or without said priestess, want to create their infamous ww's, but they want something with more of a physical presence than a mere shadowbaby. How do we pay for life? Dany awoke dragons from stone, so why can't Others awaken ww's from sacrificed infants?

Let me ask something about accelerated pregnancy. Gilly looked to be "in the early stages of pregnancy" to Jon, so what 3 months? Could six months have really passed before Sam got back to Crasters? That always bothered me.

And does Mance ever mention a pregnant wife? Or even a wife, before we meet her?

[Black Crow]

Skinny, undernourished?

[Matthew.]

In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

This is precisely why I'm interested in what the 'gods' of the FM were, as well as the gods of the giants; religion offers a glimpse into what sort of rituals (see: sacrifices) they would have been performing, and as a consequence, what their magical footprint on ancient Westeros may have been.

[Voice]

I think the difference is that as the bastard son of Lord Stark he was brought up to rejection, but somehow I feel as the bastard son of Lyanna he belongs because his mother was a Stark, just as was Bael's son.

That changes nothing though. Not now at least. Such a revelation would have made sense in the first book before he left WF. He'd realize Cat had no reason to bear him such contempt. Now, he's a sworn brother. A man grown. He doesn't "belong" in Winterfell anymore anyway. And, he still wouldn't be a Stark. He'd just get the long face from is mom instead of his dad. And, since Lyanna is a complete stranger to him, I fail to see how such a revelation would fill him with any sense of closure.

[Voice]

Let me ask something about accelerated pregnancy. Gilly looked to be "in the early stages of pregnancy" to Jon, so what 3 months? Could six months have really passed before Sam got back to Crasters? That always bothered me.

And does Mance ever mention a pregnant wife? Or even a wife, before we meet her?

I'd say Jon definitely falls into the "unreliable narrator" category when it comes to pregnancy. When my son was in the oven, my wife didn't begin to show until she was about 5 months along. Which is late, but not unheard of. Add to that a bunch of layers of furs to keep warm, and Gilly was likely in her third trimester already.

ETA:

Just remembered, Jon sees Gilly looking "in the early stages," then the great ranging heads towards the Fist, they wait for Qorin, Jon "turns" his cloak, the massacre at the Fist occurs, the watch makes it back to Craster's, the mutiny happens while they are tending their injured, then Sam and Gilly reach Bran and company at the Night Fort, then they return to Castle Black. That's a lot of events, and a lot of time for her pregnancy to occur.

[WeaselPie]

I'd say Jon definitely falls into the "unreliable narrator" category when it comes to pregnancy. When my son was in the oven, my wife didn't begin to show until she was about 5 months along. Which is late, but not unheard of. Add to that a bunch of layers of furs to keep warm, and Gilly was likely in her third trimester already.

I also asked myself, how would Jon Snow know about pregnancy? From Cat perhaps. An extremely odd observation if it's just meant to be a throwaway. And considering the huge amount of double-meaning in that chapter, I find it suspicious that GRRM would specifically choose to include that.

Why not just "a pregnant woman."

[WeaselPie]

Just remembered, Jon sees Gilly looking "in the early stages," then the great ranging heads towards the Fist, they wait for Qorin, Jon "turns" his cloak, the massacre at the Fist occurs, the watch makes it back to Craster's, the mutiny happens while they are tending their injured, then Sam and Gilly reach Bran and company at the Night Fort, then they return to Castle Black. That's a lot of events, and a lot of time for her pregnancy to occur.

The timeline I'm questioning is Sam and Jon's first visit to Crasters (Gilly is in the early stages of pregnancy) and Sam's return to Crasters (Gilly gives birth). Sam travelled to the Fist and back.

Crasters to the Fist is half the distance from Winterfell to Torrhen's Square. Even accounting for the weather, it's not a long journey. Yes, I know lots of stuff happened at the First, but 5-6 months worth?

[Black Crow]

The timeline I'm questioning is Sam and Jon's first visit to Crasters (Gilly is in the early stages of pregnancy) and Sam's return to Crasters (Gilly gives birth). Sam travelled to the Fist and back.

I fear a lot of these things and the theories arising rest upon the assumption that GRRM is infallible and that therefore any discrepancies in time and space are as carefully laid as any textual clue to Jon's true identity and consequently get invested with a significance never intended by him.

[Voice]

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

I think it is. The series has always been about real human motives and ambitions. Magic is another weapon to achieve them, and it has no hilt to boot. We've already seen that the Old Gods interact in a very biological way with their priesthood (paste is ingested and there are roots poking about). I think the Song is a play on words for battle, rather than some mystical force. The song of swords clashing, those who "sing the song of earth" while the hammers fall, the dance of dragons, etc.

This is precisely why I'm interested in what the 'gods' of the FM were, as well as the gods of the giants; religion offers a glimpse into what sort of rituals (see: sacrifices) they would have been performing, and as a consequence, what their magical footprint on ancient Westeros may have been.

I think "footprint" might be the exact opposite of their effect on Westeros, as the Others leave no footprints ;) I can see no other cause for the Others to exist than the transgressions of First Men in ancient Westeros. Their existence, for me, seems tied to the tradition/religion First Men brought with them. Bronze related, perhaps. Blood related, likely. It has been a recurring theme in Heresy to lay the blame of Others at the feet of the cotf. I've always leaned away from that because when cotf are in trouble, they bring out their hammer, not Ice cold Sidhe. Also, we have nothing in text to suggest they have the ability to manipulate Ice at all. The "crueller gods" Craster serves might provide a clue. It seems the idea of blood sacrifice is deeply rooted for many human cultures throughout Planetos, not just FM. Blood and Fire seem to be their truest deities. Ice seems to be a new curse that occurred after their migration to Westeros, and perhaps it was this curse that spawned their conversion to the Old Gods rather than their native beliefs.

[Black Crow]

That changes nothing though. Not now at least. Such a revelation would have made sense in the first book before he left WF. He'd realize Cat had no reason to bear him such contempt. Now, he's a sworn brother. A man grown. He doesn't "belong" in Winterfell anymore anyway. And, he still wouldn't be a Stark. He'd just get the long face from is mom instead of his dad. And, since Lyanna is a complete stranger to him, I fail to see how such a revelation would fill him with any sense of closure.

I fear its one of those things which rests on emotion rather than argument, but I feel that a bastard born to a woman who isn't part of the family is an outsider while a bastard born to someone who is a family member is more readily accepted as such, especially when in this case we have at least one precedent as told to Jon by his lover.

[WeaselPie]

I fear a lot of these things and the theories arising rest upon the assumption that GRRM is infallible and that therefore any discrepancies in time and space are as carefully laid as any textual clue to Jon's true identity and consequently get invested with a significance never intended by him.

I fear the same. I do think GRRM chooses his words very carefully, but in a case like this one, we may never know if it was intentional or not. However, the scrapped 5 year gap didn't happen until after ASOS. I could forgive it if the discrepancy were between ASOS and AFFC, I suppose, but ACOK and ASOS were banged out within two years.

I dunno. I may not be able to cut him a break on this one, but I won't dwell on it.