Racism in germany

[Biglose]

http://www.quora.com/What-should-an-Indian-male-student-do-if-he-is-denied-an-internship-opportunity-on-the-basis-of-India-being-projected-as-an-unsafe-country-for-women?srid=oWuF&share=1

Quite honestly, I am shocked. Not because there is racism. But that even university professors feel so freaking confident in expressing it.

Just admitting: Yeah, I and some friends of mine we discriminate, thank you very much.

Nothing wrong with that...

Praying that at least the discussion will end fast, and won't encourage other racist to crawl into the sunlight..

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hereabouts the story goes a bit different: http://www.zv.uni-leipzig.de/service/presse/nachrichten.html?ifab_modus=detail&ifab_uid=3c3c139bd820150309155752&ifab_id=5956

According to the university professor those mails are doctored and are taken out of context anyway, Apparently the professor refused him because there were no available spots at the time, which he didn't accept and tried to engage her in a discussion about the social situation in Germany and India, where that particular topic crept up.

Four out of thirty of this professor's international students are Indian.

I won't presume to know who tells the truth. But there is more to the issue than what's in your link. Simply because not even the most racist professor ever would dare write something like that since it's pretty illegal. Offering proof for that requires an extraordinary level of stupidity.

[Jo498]

While these may be dubious there are far worse cases of racism in Germany on an almost daily basis. Last week a mayor of a village, Troeglitz resigned because he had offered to have 40 refugees/asylum seekers in an available house in that village whereupon some villagers organized "protest marches" together with Neonazi Party (NPD) and apparently threatened him and his family...

BTW can anyone help with the broken text wrap? I do not know what's going on here...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

While these may be dubious there are far worse cases of racism in Germany on an almost daily basis. Last week a mayor of a village, Troeglitz resigned because he had offered to have 40 refugees/asylum seekers in an available house in that village whereupon some villagers organized "protest marches" together with Neonazi Party (NPD) and apparently threatened him and his family...

BTW can anyone help with the broken text wrap? I do not know what's going on here...

That's a way bigger problem indeed.

[Biglose]

@Bright Blue Eyes

That's a way bigger problem indeed.

Well, it depends. That you can organize a few assholes, we will always have to deal with that.

There is a reason they can only do it in an eastern village of 2700 people. If they pull shit like that in any minor or major western city they will get a decent beating.

I won't presume to know who tells the truth. But there is more to the issue than what's in your link. Simply because not even the most racist professor ever would dare write something like that since it's pretty illegal. Offering proof for that requires an extraordinary level of stupidity.

The universe and human stupidity are unlimited.

She just needed to believe herself on the "right"-side. People say a lot of really stupid shit in that case.

So the idea that she thought she could say it because "women rights"... It is the same with antisemites and "palestinian" rights. There have been more than enough cases of people even going as far as quoting the elders of zion or nazi propaganda, in that regard.It is just shocking, that well I would think in her possition she really should have known better. And not in written form.

(If we would really be talking about manufactured e-mails, why not just post the originals...

But I won't say that there are not quite strong tensions between women rights and immigration in europe. That point became mood after rotherham. (And I got to say, that I am quite worried that such a bomb could blow up in germany, too)

[The guy from the Vale]

@Biglose:

Nope, it's definitely the bigger problem. Why? Because their rally was permitted by the police.

And such bombs could blow up in Germany, too - but not necessarily in immigrant communities only. Domian had an interesting talk on abuse some time ago, including one woman who claimed, surprisingly credibly, that such a thing had happened to her in rural Swabia.

[Jo498]

A single teenager abused or a ring or men grooming dozens of 13 yo for prostitution? I would not exclude either but the former is clearly something that happens once in while and is probably as impossible to prevent as other crimes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@Bright Blue Eyes

Well, it depends. That you can organize a few assholes, we will always have to deal with that.

There is a reason they can only do it in an eastern village of 2700 people. If they pull shit like that in any minor or major western city they will get a decent beating.

The universe and human stupidity are unlimited.

She just needed to believe herself on the "right"-side. People say a lot of really stupid shit in that case.

So the idea that she thought she could say it because "women rights"... It is the same with antisemites and "palestinian" rights. There have been more than enough cases of people even going as far as quoting the elders of zion or nazi propaganda, in that regard.It is just shocking, that well I would think in her possition she really should have known better. And not in written form.

(If we would really be talking about manufactured e-mails, why not just post the originals...

But I won't say that there are not quite strong tensions between women rights and immigration in europe. That point became mood after rotherham. (And I got to say, that I am quite worried that such a bomb could blow up in germany, too)

Actually, less personalized stuff like that happens in the bigger cities as well. Yes, in most cases there are like ten times their number of counter-demonstration-participants, but actually beating them up is still illegal.

You can't post the original e-mails. Goes against privacy laws and regulations for government-funded stuff. You need to jump through a lot of legal hops before you could do that, including a lot of written agreements from the other side.

Violating the confidential communication of students would cause severe legal punishment.

[Biglose]

@Bright Blue Eyes

Actually, less personalized stuff like that happens in the bigger cities as well. Yes, in most cases there are like ten times their number of counter-demonstration-participants, but actually beating them up is still illegal.

If they show up in front of the private residence of a major parties in the west. They can be happy if the beating is handled by the police.

And no, with the german self defance rights... Thats not as illegal as one might think.

You can't post the original e-mails. Goes against privacy laws and regulations for government-funded stuff. You need to jump through a lot of legal hops before you could do that, including a lot of written agreements from the other side.

Violating the confidential communication of students would cause severe legal punishment.

Well, but then again it could be shared internally. And my guess is, that if this stuff would have been fabricated, her denial would have been stronger.

Are you sure you can't post your own e-mails, even if there aren't any confidencial informations within?

[Solmyr]

Read about this earlier today from this source - it includes the information of OP's source, but also the German ambassador in India's reaction.

If the entire thing is a sham and the professor's e-mails are taken out of context, then this is a very devious cry for attention. However, I cannot imagine any context that justifies such blatant generalization, bordering on racism, being expressed in official, written correspondence between a university professor and a candidate-intern.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

@Bright Blue Eyes

If they show up in front of the private residence of a major parties in the west. They can be happy if the beating is handled by the police.

And no, with the german self defance rights... Thats not as illegal as one might think.

Well, but then again it could be shared internally. And my guess is, that if this stuff would have been fabricated, her denial would have been stronger.

Are you sure you can't post your own e-mails, even if there aren't any confidencial informations within?

Well, the "Schwarzer Block" handling those beatings will get just the same problems with the police as the neo-nazis themselves. Self-defense is not an issue in that case.

Shared internally inside the appropriate offices of the University, yes. But not outside. And how should we know about what's inside?

Not in any official capacity. I'm neither a lawyer nor in an official position, therefore I may be a bit off, but as a student at University I know that all communication between me and staff members will stay inside the University staff. Barring a court ordering it released to the police, which still won't give it to the broad public.

Privately, that could go a bit different. Just a bit. And the professor isn't a private person but acting in her official capacity.

Read about this earlier today from this source - it includes the information of OP's source, but also the German ambassador in India's reaction.

If the entire thing is a sham and the professor's e-mails are taken out of context, then this is a very devious cry for attention. However, I cannot imagine any context that justifies such blatant generalization, bordering on racism, being expressed in official, written correspondence between a university professor and a candidate-intern.

The problem, especially with the first letter, is that this professor has taken four Indian students in her course and two in her laboratory. I don't know about their genders, but if they aren't all female, the alleged letter and the facts are definitely at odds.

[TerraPrime]

Let's be clear: Having Indian students, even male ones, in her group doesn't mean she's not biased against them. If that were the case, we would have no legitimate lawsuits of workplace discrimination, because how can a boss be a sexist if he has female employees?!

Second, I think the professor was unartful in trying to do the right thing. She should have asked the prospective student for his opinion on the recent slate of high-profile rape cases in India, and then pick from his answers the parts that show his sexism, and then use that as one part of the reason to deny his application based on the university's diversity policy. If there are no sexist content in the student's email, then she should accept him. Either way, the problem is resolved and she ends up with a team that is relatively free of anti-women bias.

[Arakan]

I would call it xenophobia, not racism. And xenophobia is a problem in Germany (as in many other countries). For instance I have quite a few colleagues from ex-Yu. And there are definitely cases of prejudices and still many stereotypes.

The reason you don't hear that much about is, is

A) the ex-Yu community doesnt vocally complain about it but take it as a fact of Life

B) there are no strong lobby groups to promote their cause

How many Germans for instance know that the ex-Yu community is the second biggest in Germany, after the Turks?

with regard to the mentioned case in the OP: I wait with judgement until it is clear whether or not the professor was taken out of context.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Let's be clear: Having Indian students, even male ones, in her group doesn't mean she's not biased against them. If that were the case, we would have no legitimate lawsuits of workplace discrimination, because how can a boss be a sexist if he has female employees?!

Quite correct. Doesn't say one whiff about her mindset. But makes her not taking on any Indian students as claimed in that email definitely untrue.

[Biglose]

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Not-the-first-time-German-prof-rejected-Indian-student/articleshow/46509754.cms

Was not her first time...

@TerraPrime

As any good racist knows, you do not give reasons. (Outside of: Sorry, no more space)

Do you really think that a professor grilling non-caucasian students on sexism and using some of their awnser (probably out of context) to deny them access to the university would get away with it, if it gets out? This works if you have an "we are no racist we are feminists where is my white hood" kind of "control board, maybe.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Second, I think the professor was unartful in trying to do the right thing. She should have asked the prospective student for his opinion on the recent slate of high-profile rape cases in India, and then pick from his answers the parts that show his sexism, and then use that as one part of the reason to deny his application based on the university's diversity policy. If there are no sexist content in the student's email, then she should accept him. Either way, the problem is resolved and she ends up with a team that is relatively free of anti-women bias.

Wow, this seems like a remarkable (and not in a good way) suggestion to me. I just can't imagine it being good policy to specifically interrogate students applying for science internships for their opinions on "local" news items that happen to have caught the attention of the international community, and then potentially rejecting them based upon their answers. Presumably, one of the benefits of international internships in the world of higher education is the increased cultural exchange and awareness that comes from having people of wildly different backgrounds interaction with each other in an educational environment. The idea that you could or should disqualify someone for holding the wrong position on some hot-button issue in their home country seems incredibly backwards to me. Presumably, university "diversity" and "code of conduct" policies aren't designed to weed out people who think the wrong thoughts or hold the wrong opinions on certain matters. You want to regulate conduct, including speech? Okay, fine. But now we're going to prompt people to answer certain questions in the hope that we can disqualify them for their thoughts as well? Troubling.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Not-the-first-time-German-prof-rejected-Indian-student/articleshow/46509754.cms

Was not her first time...

@TerraPrime

As any good racist knows, you do not give reasons. (Outside of: Sorry, no more space)

Do you really think that a professor grilling non-caucasian students on sexism and using some of their awnser (probably out of context) to deny them access to the university would get away with it, if it gets out? This works if you have an "we are no racist we are feminists where is my white hood" kind of "control board, maybe.

Ok, that looks increasingly bad.

But it seems rooted in over-the-top feminism, less in racism as such.

[Solmyr]

Wow, this seems like a remarkable (and not in a good way) suggestion to me. I just can't imagine it being good policy to specifically interrogate students applying for science internships for their opinions on "local" news items that happen to have caught the attention of the international community, and then potentially rejecting them based upon their answers. Presumably, one of the benefits of international internships in the world of higher education is the increased cultural exchange and awareness that comes from having people of wildly different backgrounds interaction with each other in an educational environment. The idea that you could or should disqualify someone for holding the wrong position on some hot-button issue in their home country seems incredibly backwards to me. Presumably, university "diversity" and "code of conduct" policies aren't designed to weed out people who think the wrong thoughts or hold the wrong opinions on certain matters. You want to regulate conduct, including speech? Okay, fine. But now we're going to prompt people to answer certain questions in the hope that we can disqualify them for their thoughts as well? Troubling.

I read TP's comment more in the context of what that particular professor, presuming she's racist/xenophobic, should've done in order to get her way without actually getting in trouble, and not as general advice about how universities should screen internship candidates. Now that I see your take on the matter, I sincerely hope I read it right, for the alternative is rather disturbing.

[Malik Ambar]

If indeed this professor is guilty then it's really sad that somebody in the Western academia would do this. A private company, I would understand but a well educated woman like her deciding that one gruesome incidence should be used to judge all men ? That's ridiculous. Sadly, this might be the wide spread mentality about them everywhere, which is troubling.

And yes ,racism in Germany is on the rise ,but not just Germany mind you. This seems to be a rising trend all over

[Biglose]

Ok, that looks increasingly bad.

But it seems rooted in over-the-top feminism, less in racism as such.

Over the top anything has a huge tendency to end up in one sort of racism or another. Not really suprising, if you think of it.