Unraveling the Stark Family Tree from TWOIAF

[Night's King Reborn]

First time poster, long time fan.

I've been interested in the Stark family tree from TWOIAF ever since the book came out. However, looking at it again with greater scrutiny has revealed several items of interest I'd like to get feedback on.

-For starters, the birth order of Serena and Sansa Stark is odd considering their marriages to their half-uncles. For intra-dynastic marriages of this sort it would seem most logical that Jonnel would marry the older girl and Edric would marry the younger girl. Instead, at least on the tree, the reverse is true, although since the tree doesn't show which marriages occur first it's hard to approximate the marriage situation at that time. The fact that Sansa is listed as the elder in the Blood of Dragons MUSH (yes, I know it isn't canon per se, but it seems like a lot of WOIAF material has been extracted from it and it is approved by GRRM) would support the idea that the Stark family tree in TWOIAF is in error about the birth order here. Or not.

(slightly off-topic, I would love to eventually get more dates and concrete information on all of the Lords of Winterfell, which is one reason why the MUSH is so interesting even with its Dorne focus)

-The fact that Edric Stark was never Lord of Winterfell is interesting enough; however, the fact that neither of his sons became Lord of Winterfell suggests something like dying young, the Watch, etc. In fact, for several generations the succession issues this tree raises suggests that a lot is going on that we don't know about.

-We know that Barth Blacksword was the Lord of Winterfell who died on Skagos sometime during the reign of Daeron II, but 184 AC-209 AC is a long period in which to die. Given that Cregan was the 'Old Man of the North' I've always thought of it like this: Cregan dies around 190 AC (with a MUSH date of birth of 108 AC, ~82 years, most of it as Lord, certainly cementing his popular image as 'old'), Jonnel dies very soon thereafter, Barth dies several years later on Skagos, Brandon dies around 200 AC, Rodwell (who for whatever reason I think of as sickly; no children, etc.) dies quickly, and Beron is Lord of Winterfell for around eight years before dying during Dagon Greyjoy's raids ~211 AC. i was really hoping TWOIAF would have more definitive dating for the Starks, but unless we get any cut content or more quasi-canon dates from the MUSH I think my dates are reasonable enough.

-Harmond Umber, the Drunken Giant who fought with Willam Stark at Long Lake in 226 AC, could very well be the son of Arrana Stark and Osric Umber, making him and Willam second cousins. Just a fun piece of speculation.

-The She-Wolves of Winterfell will supposedly take place when Dunk and Egg visit Winterfell sometime after the death of Lord Beron Stark, i.e. sometime in the vicinity of 211-212-213 AC. Using this tree it's possible to extrapolate several of the women involved the politics of succession; Lorra Royce (Beron's widow), Alys Karstark (Beron's widowed mother), Myriame Manderly (Rodwell Stark's widow who never had children), Lyanne Glover and/or Melantha Blackwood (given that we don't know which marriage of Willam's came first; however, given the likelihood that Dunk meets Nan during this visit per Bran's weirwood vision, I can imagine a scenario where Melantha is scheming about her own (future?) children usurping Lyanne's son Brandon's place in the line of succession, or something similar); basically the tree gives us a lot to work with about speculating about the family dynamics in this period

-the 'issue' of the sons of Artos Stark and Lysara Karstark are not labeled and are denoted in a different way than the rest of the members of the tree, leading me to speculate that they might be part of the succession issues at the time. Or not.

-Rickard Stark marrying his first cousin once removed Lyarra Stark is odd, but in the context of the large number of intra-Stark marriages depicted on the tree is put into greater context. I guess I've always been under the impression that anything beyond first cousin marriages was a taboo unless you're a Targaryen...but clearly Starks marrying Starks of various affinity is quite common in this period.

tl;dr the Stark family tree from TWOIAF has a lot of tantalizing tidbits and is worth discussing in greater detail.

Thanks for reading.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Interesting post!

There was a theory doing the rounds that Edric ad his line were disinherited perhaps for rebelling

[Ramsay's Penguins]

She-Wolves. Clearly the Karstarks are up to no good, or they did very good. They get another marriage only a generation later. Since all the She-Wolves are previous Lady Starks (which I interpret as married to a lord or a female Stark) (there is also an SSM labeling them wives, widows, mothers and grandmothers) then I think we can exclude Melantha and Lyanne. They'd be only in their teens. Sure they can be players, but it's not as likely as others. I think they are Lorra Royce, Myriame Manderly, Alys Karstark, Robyn Ryswell and Serena Stark. It'd probably revolve around that Edric/Serena marriage. Edric was passed over (died?) but still had two daughters and sons. They married Umber's and Cerwyns. It seems to me to be Serena with the Umber's and Cerwyn's opposing Lorra Royce and her children. Myriame Manderly and Robyn Ryswell could choose either side really, while Alys Karstark will be behind Lorra. The Karstark side must be successful or pivotal, since there is a Karstark marriage really soon after. Alys grandson marries what may also be her granddaughter or some other close relation, so I think it makes sense their side wins, which is likely the Lorra Royce side of the family.

[Lord Varys]

This is clearly interesting. An important point we should consider is the usual 'too many heirs' thing a long-ruling lord like Cregan would have to deal with.

We don't know the marriage order of Cregan Stark. Considering that the Pact of Ice and Fire apparently involved a Targaryen bride for Lord Cregan (most likely either Baela or Rhaena) he was either not yet married at that time or his first wife was Arra Norrey and she had died already in childbirth - which is how the MUSH lists it. Arra Norrey died in 128 AC.

This means that Rickon Stark was the heir to Winterfell for nearly thirty years, as Black Aly - the woman Cregan apparently decided to marry instead of his Targaryen princess - only gave him daughters until she died in 146 AC.

Lynara Stark came thereafter and it seems as if Lord Cregan named his second son Jonnel his heir after Rickon's death in Dorne, passing over Sansa and Serena. Which he should be able to do.

The question whether Sansa and Serena were first married to their non-Stark husbands is really difficult to say. Jonnel may have been infertile considering that he had no children with either of his wives. Since Sansa seems to have no remarried after Jonnel's death she may have died early, either as Jonnel's first or second wife. Serena not having any children with Jon Umber could be a hint that she took him as her second husband after she was no longer capable/willing to conceive children.

By the way: Marian/Mariah Stark apparently married Benjicot's Blackwood's son and heir Seth Blackwood which means that Betha Blackwood and all her Targaryen children may have Stark blood after all. Melissa Blackwood was Seth's youngest sister.

Edric may have predeceased Lord Cregan, too, causing him to change the succession again in favor Barthogan should the childless Jonnel die without issue, as he most likely did not want any boy lords - if we assume that Cregard and Torrhen were still children by then. This would make even more sense if Serena had been originally married to Jon Umber and married Edric only afterwards, causing their children to be younger than they would have been had she married him earlier. I guess when Cregan realized that Jonnel wasn't able of fathering children he intended to continue the main Stark line through Edric and Serena - until Edric died.

What I remember of the SSM stuff on 'The She-Wolves' was that Beron Stark was slowly dying of a wound received by the Ironborn and the Stark women - not necessarily all former Ladies of Winterfell but also (unwed) daughters and sisters were fighting for supremacy.

I imagine that Serena is at the head of one faction, still pushing - or finally pushing - for the succession of either Cregard or Torrhen against Beron's children by Lorra Royce who would be an outsider/foreigner in the North.

If Jeyne Manderly is still alive - not all that likely, I guess, but a possibility, as she would only be in her eighties - she might be backing Serena's children, as they are of her and Rickon's line.

Aregelle and Arrana and their husbands would also be backing Serena/Jeyne, whereas Myriame Manderly and Alys Karstark would be backing Lorra and her children (although not necessarily Lorra herself). Lyanna and Arsa Stark - if still alive and living at Winterfell - could also be backing Beron's children.

It would be hard to guess in which camp any surviving/unwed children of Black Aly and Cregan would be.

An idea I had also tossed around is that Lorra's eldest son and Beron's eventual successor, unwed Donnor Stark, may have been a lackwit or otherwise disabled, laying much more power in the hands of the people surrounding him than him directly. Considering the amount of children Beron and Lorra had it is very unlikely that Donnor would not already have been a man grown or at least close enough to manhood that this bickering behind the scenes would not matter all that much.

Due to the marriage policy Serena/Jeyne should have the Cerwyns and the Umbers in their camp, and Lorra the Karstarks and Ryswells (if Robyn Ryswell as Jonnel's second wife and still alive). Artos' Karstark match could be a sign that Karstark support proved to be crucial in resolving the issue, and I expect that the Glovers helped out as well, resulting in Willam's first marriage to Lyanna Glover.

[Night's King Reborn]

I like the idea of Donnor Stark being somehow incapacitated; I agree that it's odd he was never married given that he should have had plenty of time.

I'm not sure we can exclude Melantha and Lyanne from any of the intrigues around the death of Beron Stark. We know now that Old Nan came to be the wetnurse for Brandon Stark son of Willam Stark and Lyanne Glover. Since it's unknown which marriage (Melantha or Lyanne) came first, without more information about when Old Nan was born/when Dunk actually visits Winterfell (closer to 211 AC or several years later) I definitely think it's possible either Melantha or Lyanne could have been involved in the succession intrigues (I say either because given that Lyanne dies in childbirth any maneuverings she would be involved in would be before she actually gave birth).

Tangentially this discussion also relates to the identity of the pregnant woman from Bran's weirwood vision in ADWD. If we assume that the knight as tall as Hodor is Dunk and the girl he's kissing is a young Old Nan, then that automatically limits the candidates for the preceding vision. I am assuming that the woman is a Lady Stark; given our timeline constraints she is probably either Melantha Blackwood (the future son being Edwyle Stark) or Marna Locke (the future son being Rickard Stark). Now why she would need vengeance is a different question altogether, but again without firmer dates for when Dunk visits Winterfell all of this is just informed speculation.

[Lord Varys]

The thing is, we have a sort of set date for the She-Wolves story - around 212-214 AC - unless of course George changes the overall outline of the story. But it is essentially confirmed that Beron Stark dies following his battles with the Ironborn. And from the Greyjoy section of the book it does not seem likely that Dagon Greyjoy remains Lord of the Iron Islands for much longer. Somebody is going to put him down. There are multiple Greyjoys mentioned up until the guy who betrayed Bittersteel - which most likely took place during the Third Rebellion in 219 AC, as the Lord Greyjoy in 236 AC should have been either Quellon or his father.

The MUSH gives us Brandon Stark the father of Beron as 160 AC, and a SSM states that the Lord Stark dying during the She-Wolves is supposed to in his late twenties or around thirty, if I'm not misremembering. But the numbers loosely fit.

Brandon is born 160, and married, say, 180 or so, then Beron, his second child, could be born around 185 AC, making him loosely thirty around the time of his death (213-214).

With that in mind it is very unlikely that any of Beron's children will be very old when the story takes place, and it is even less likely that Willam is already married. If Willam and Artos had already been men grown with families of their own by then I think there would be little doubt who was really in charge - Lorra and her branch of the family.

My personal guess is that Lyanne Glover was Willam's first wife as we know that his half-brother Brandon never became Lord of Winterfell nor fathered he any descendant. Catelyn mentions Jocelyn Stark's descendants in ASoS but makes no mention of Edwyle's half-brother's descendant, suggesting that he did not live long enough to breed.

I imagine that the Willam-Melantha match was a later outgrowth of Egg's ties to the Starks/Willam following his visit to Winterfell. He and Betha may have brokered a match between Willam and Melantha who might have been Betha's sister, making Willam Egg's brother-in-law. Such a connection could explain why Aegon V apparently went to great lengths to support the North during the six-year-winter during which he ascended the Iron Throne.

Old Nan's Brandon could either be Willam's or Artos' son Brandon. That's really hard to tell. But considering the fact that George once mentioned she was the oldest character in the series she could easily be 110-120, meaning that she might be as old as Dunk or possibly one or two years older than he is.

The pregnant woman does not have to be a Lady Stark it could also be a Stark daughter living at Winterfell with her husband - say, Branda Stark, Alysanne Stark, or Berena Stark. Possibly even Arya Flint, the wife of the Wandering Wolf who may have lived at Winterfell, too.

[Night's King Reborn]

Well, combined with the information from Bran IV in AGOT (Old Nan's Brandon Stark died at age three, mother died in childbirth) and the Stark family tree from TWOIAF it's pretty conclusive to me that her Brandon Stark was the son of Willam and Lyanne (it's also what is now listed on the Wiki).

I agree that She-Wolves must take place around 212/213 AC. The issue I see is that, given that we know that Old Nan came to Winterfell to nurse this Brandon Stark, the fact that she is assumed to be the girl in the weirwood vision complicates things if we accept the idea that Willam was not married at this time.

That is to say that:

-Beron Stark dies around 212/213 AC during the ironborn raids

-Lyanne Glover dies in childbirth around the same time, which brings Old Nan to Winterfell to nurse Brandon Stark just before the events of She-Wolves

-Nan meets Dunk per the weirwood vision

So it seems to me that, if Old Nan and Dunk are accepted to be the figures in the weirwood vision (which must almost certaintly take place in She-Wolves around 212/213 AC), Willam was indeed married and widowed by that point. Given that Old Nan came to Winterfell specifically to nurse Brandon Stark her presence there makes no sense without Lyanne having already died, meaning that Willam was certainly old enough to marry (probably mid-late teens or so), which gives us a more seasoned commander and lord at Long Lake in 226 AC instead of someone much younger.

I do agree that the timeline is tight; assuming Brandon Stark born in 160 AC, Beron Stark born ~180 AC-dying ~212 AC, Willam would have to be born ~196 AC or so to have him be plausibly married and widowed by She-Wolves, but it seems perfectly plausible and is necessary to explain Old Nan's presence (which as I have shown can be directly conflated with Dunk's visit shortly after Beron's death).

I think the possibility of the pregnant woman in the weirwood vision being someone besides a Lady Stark interesting, although that certainly widens the pool of who it could be and why it would be relevant to have a son to avenge her, for whatever reason.

I do like the idea of the Willam-Melantha marriage being an outgrowth of Egg's visit and later marriage to Betha.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, the time line is tight but it could work. It's strange then, though, how/why Willam took only a second wife later on. Egg and Betha only married in 220 AC. On the other hand, Donnor may have been Lord for quite some time and Willam may only have taken second wife after his son died and he became Lord.

And Lyanne does not have to die in childbirth giving birth to Brandon. She could die some years later, even outliving her son, and Nan may have been needed because there were issues with her milk or she nearly died in childbirth and was unable to feed her child herself.

Marna Locke as the pregnant woman could make sense as we don't yet know how Edwyle Stark died, and it might be that somebody killed him before his son was even born, causing Marna to hope she would get a son to avenge her. But perhaps the woman herself was wronged by somebody else personally and she hoped for somebody to avenge that. It is really hard to tell. But this would clearly be a story set during Egg's reign if Edwyle, Marna, and Rickard are involved.

[Night's King Reborn]

Brandon Stark's mother's death in childbirth is confirmed in AGOT Chapter 24/Bran IV, and Lyanne Glover has been established as his mother.

I agree that the identity of the pregnant woman is pretty much open at this point.

One way to imagine the tight timeline working is Willam being forced to marry young by his parents, only to lose his wife in childbirth and his son three years later; eventually he gets introduced through Betha and Egg to Melantha years later in or around 220 AC, when it has become apparent to everyone in Winterfell that Lord Donnor (for whatever reason; infirmity, disinterest, etc,) will not be siring a heir and therefore Willam needs to get married again.

[Lord Varys]

But nothing speaks against Lyanne Glover dying in childbirth some years later, delivering a stillbirth that eventually kills her. We don't have to believe she died birthing Brandon, or do we?

Could be that Willam only decided he wanted to continue his own line after he became Lord of Winterfell. Beron had fathered enough sons to continue the line should anything happen to him and Donnor, but after he became Lord himself his own legacy may have become more important to him.

[Night's King Reborn]

I was always under the impression that she died birthing Brandon; I don't have the text in front of me at the moment but both the Wiki and the Tower of the Hand summary (http://towerofthehand.com/books/101/025/index.html) go with this reading.

Oddly enough this sort of inquiry is one of the reasons why I hope Old Nan is still alive at the Dreadfort; despite her conflating of all the Brandons and her wandering mind she'd be an absolutely incredible source of information about the Starks going back decades, if only she could be coaxed to narrate more groundedly.

[Lord Varys]

I checked it. It says she died giving birth to Brandon, and the Brandon died of a summer's child at the age of three. It is now clear that he was indeed the brother of Lord Rickard's father.

[shastada]

My question as to the Stark family tree is why are there so few Starks in the 'present' world. There is only the main branch of Ned's children left. I know his brother and sister both died and Benjen took the black but what about Rickard Neds father. Did he have no other siblings? That seems odd seeing how Rickard had 4 kids and Ned had 5 kids that Rickard's father (unnamed anywhere I can find) had but a single child? I would think there would be Starks all over the place. Just look at the Lannisters, there are Lannisters popping up everywhere, cousins, uncles, all sorts of Lannisters but with the Starks there tree is very narrow. How did this come to happen? It would take many generations of single children to narrow a tree this much so that there are no longer any other cousins or second cousins floating around somewhere.

[kayasnow]

According to the family tree in the Worldbook, Rickard did not have any siblings. His father, Edwyle, had a sister who married a Royce whose 3 daughters married a Templeton, a Corbray and the third wasn't mentioned. (Catelyn told that bit to Robb in one of the books - I can't look it up right now).

Although I am curious about Rickard's wife. According to the Worldbook her name was Lyarra and I think she had siblings...there's probably some 2nd and 3rd cousins there, and GRRM has said there were some Stark branches in White Harbour, Barrowtown/Torrhen's Square.

It's like 6 am now and I'm still in bed waiting for the shower, so I'm not gonna get up to look all that up right now...maybe after work. Or maybe one of you lovely posters will get there before me!

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I have the same question too.How can the appearing Stark line in Got be only Ned's line?We know Artos's sons had unamed issue.

I believe the pregnant woman is either Melantha Blackwood or Marna Locke. But the only ones who can be ruled out from the list are :Lyanna Stark,Catelyn Tully and Sansa/Alayne Stark.

I wonder why Rickard,who is known for having southorn ambitions, married a Stark (not even a Northern noble woman).

[Luddagain]

Rickard may have had no choice ie his father insisted. He may have loved Lyarra. His Southern ambitions may have started BECAUSE she left him and he hated "wold blood."

I am strongly of the view that Lyarra is or was a warg. I think she left home BECAUSE she was a warg. Perhaps Ricard and Lyara rowed over her warging. Now I rather hope she is alive still. I think it is probable that HER direwolf was the mother of the 6 pups.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Rickard may have had no choice ie his father insisted. He may have loved Lyarra. His Southern ambitions may have started BECAUSE she left him and he hated "wold blood."

I am strongly of the view that Lyarra is or was a warg. I think she left home BECAUSE she was a warg. Perhaps Ricard and Lyara rowed over her warging. Now I rather hope she is alive still. I think it is probable that HER direwolf was the mother of the 6 pups.

Or she could have died.

[Aemond's Eye]

Or she could have died.

This.

I'd bet on Rickard's Southron Ambitions being born of a desire to have more influence politically. Both for House Stark and for Lord Paramounts in general, after years spent fighting Blackfyre Rebellions.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

According to the family tree in the Worldbook, Rickard did not have any siblings. His father, Edwyle, had a sister who married a Royce whose 3 daughters married a Templeton, a Corbray and the third wasn't mentioned. (Catelyn told that bit to Robb in one of the books - I can't look it up right now).

Although I am curious about Rickard's wife. According to the Worldbook her name was Lyarra and I think she had siblings...there's probably some 2nd and 3rd cousins there, and GRRM has said there were some Stark branches in White Harbour, Barrowtown/Torrhen's Square.

It's like 6 am now and I'm still in bed waiting for the shower, so I'm not gonna get up to look all that up right now...maybe after work. Or maybe one of you lovely posters will get there before me!

Lyarra had another sister, Branda, who married Harrold Rogers. No issue afaik.

As for the family, the plot wanted it so. Nights Watch, winter illness etc can all be used to explain. Mortality is high in the North.

[Lord Varys]

Male Starks from cadet branches most certainly were motivated/convinced to join the NW if they did survive winter. And they might not have. The six-year-long winter from 230-236 AC most certainly could have culled the Stark family tree quite severely.