"[Deity XYZ] is real!" - A response.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

R'hollor might be real, annoying is the "the old gods exist" faction because there is no strong hint to that.

I would recommend reading A Dance with Dragons. It's the fifth book in the series. In it, the character Bran finally meets the Three Eyed Crow. Also, it's revealed that the Old Gods very much exist: They are Greenseers whose spirits have tapped into the network of weirwoods. (Sorry to spoil that for you. You really should have finished the series before 2400 posts.)

snip

Good points, all. I feel the "gods don't exist in ASOIAF" faction is dependant on a very narrow and recent definition of god as an all-knowing, all-powerful, creator-of-everything who sits in the clouds judging which of the creations He loves so much deserves to burn for eternity. Throughout history this Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of god has only ever held sway with a minority of Earth's population, and it's incredibly narrow-minded to insist that a god must fit this definition in order to be called a god.

[239JMFL34109]

I would recommend reading A Dance with Dragons. It's the fifth book in the series. In it, the character Bran finally meets the Three Eyed Crow. Also, it's revealed that the Old Gods very much exist: They are Greenseers whose spirits have tapped into the network of weirwoods. (Sorry to spoil that for you. You really should have finished the series before 2400 posts.)

Good points, all. I feel the "gods don't exist in ASOIAF" faction is dependant on a very narrow and recent definition of god as an all-knowing, all-powerful, creator-of-everything who sits in the clouds judging which of the creations He loves so much deserves to burn for eternity. Throughout history this Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of god has only ever held sway with a minority of Earth's population, and it's incredibly narrow-minded to insist that a god must fit this definition in order to be called a god.

zeus, amun ra, and etc.. are other all power all wise figures that come down and test or judge man in history and hardly the only ones. I would say it's an influence that has been around for a while.

i think most of the followers of the old gods would not say the greenseers are gods any more than a follower of R'hollor would say mel is a god. back in the first book Ned prayed and the old gods took away his pain in a place where the greenseers cannot see because there were no trees.

[Care2Play]

Good post. You make a decent point, but I would say that the definition of god (or God, or gods, take your pick) that makes the most sense to apply is the one the people in ASOIAF themselves apply - in the case of R'hllorism, for instance, it's very obvious that no-one, herself included, would consider Mel a god, despite her wielding powers that could be called godlike by some. The same goes for Bloodraven, he's definitely very powerful, but nothing suggests he considers himself a god - even if others might. I would like to reply in more detail, but I'm pressed for time. The above is the crux of my argument though.

I agree with this sentiment. While no one considers BR or Melisandre a God, the fact that is is possible provides certain implications for the truth behind whethor or not Gods exist in ASOIF. The fact that nobody considers BR and Melisandre Gods insot due to a lack of power nescesarily but rather their personalities and characterisitcs.

We know its possible to reach "Godlike" powers in story, which means that it is entirely possible that the Gods people worship are simply human individuals with immense power.- Just because BR doesnot consider himself a god doesnot mean that an outside viewer seing BR abilties would not worship him. Jesus Christ implored people to believe in God, and worship his father. However, seeing is believing and since people saw Jesus perform maricles, many worshiped him and still do.

Their may very well be no indivual in ASOIF that considers themselves to be a God, however that doesnot mean that others willnot view them as such. It's entirely possible ( and I would argue likely) That the religeon of Rhollor wasnot founded by a God, but rather has origins in a extremly powerful mage existing at some point in time.

The Starks worship the Old Gods, which are in reality are just the culmination of thousands of years of human & COTF conscoisness. Whose to say other religeons like Rhollor have similar misinterpreted origins?

My point: Gods or not, its all semantics. When you can raise people from the dead ( WhiteWalkers)- you are a God in my book ( relative to other humans atleast).

In the end, whethor or not their is some entity listenting to the peoples prayers in Westeros is unclear, but their are clearly very powerful beings that do act and have wills of their own.- Whethor they can be considered Gods or not is in the air. - Does anyone view Melisandre as a god, nope. However, they view her powers as gods work.- And my arguement is that her powers are her own and not the result of a god. If her powers are indeed her own, and not Rhollor, then her people inadvertainly do view her as a God, since they believe her powers are that of a God.

- I belive this due to BR telling bran that his power is in his blood, implying that Bran's beliefs are irrevelent to his skinchanging powers.

[John Doe]

I would recommend reading A Dance with Dragons. It's the fifth book in the series. In it, the character Bran finally meets the Three Eyed Crow. Also, it's revealed that the Old Gods very much exist: They are Greenseers whose spirits have tapped into the network of weirwoods. (Sorry to spoil that for you. You really should have finished the series before 2400 posts.)

i think most of the followers of the old gods would not say the greenseers are gods an more than a follower of R'hollor would say mel is a god. back in the first book Ned prayed and the old gods took away his pain in a place where the greenseers cannot see because there were no trees.

Pretty much this. Or would you call, let's say people who attend Hogwarts gods, Victarion Chainbreaker?

Also you should read the books carefully, it's not "revealed" they are gods, it's your own personal interpretation.

The difference is, people who believe in R'hollor actually believe he grants him their powers and pray to him, while I never saw Bloodraven praying to the Old Gods.

[Lord Varys]

Any fantasy series which actually has mortal men interact with 'gods' does not have any place for religion the way we know it. If you interact with 'god(s)' then they is no need for a priesthood, a church, a belief system, temples etc. unless the gods run them themselves. In such a world gods would be as accessable to any of us as is anything that is investigated and studied by science in the real world. There wouldn't be a religion or faith there would simply the truth as shown and enforced by the god(s).

This is why Martinworld only contains magic and various conflicting religious belief system, but not actual gods.

And George really makes fun of the religion he was brought up in ADwD when some chantings of the Queen's Men are very similar in content and tone to certain Catholic prayers...

[John Doe]

And George really makes fun of the religion he was brought up in ADwD when some chantings of the Queen's Men are very similar in content and tone to certain Catholic prayers...

I figured it was more of a Nazi slogan.

[Care2Play]

zeus, amun ra, and etc.. are other all power all wise figures that come down and test or judge man in history and hardly the only ones. I would say it's an influence that has been around for a while.

i think most of the followers of the old gods would not say the greenseers are gods any more than a follower of R'hollor would say mel is a god. back in the first book Ned prayed and the old gods took away his pain in a place where the greenseers cannot see because there were no trees.

What most people believe doesnot make it true. Trully powerful Greenseers ( like Bran) can see beyong Wierwoods.- Atleast according to BR. Even if the weirnet and the old Gods are different entities,- the Weirnet is powerful enough on its own to be considered a God.

We don't know what the COTF believe, but it's possible that they worship their dead greenseers as godlike beings ( native americans have a similar belief system)

If I knew that my father was watching me after death, you can make sure I would venerate his traditions.

[John Doe]

What most people believe doesnot make it true. Trully powerful Greenseers ( like Bran) can see beyong Wierwoods.- Atleast according to BR. Even if the weirnet and the old Gods are different entities,- the Weirnet is powerful enough on its own to be considered a God.

The Internet isn't a god either.

Do you have a link for this native american believe system? Just curious.

[Care2Play]

Any fantasy series which actually has mortal men interact with 'gods' does not have any place for religion the way we know it. If you interact with 'god(s)' then they is no need for a priesthood, a church, a belief system, temples etc. unless the gods run them themselves. In such a world gods would be as accessable to any of us as is anything that is investigated and studied by science in the real world. There wouldn't be a religion or faith there would simply the truth as shown and enforced by the god(s).

This is why Martinworld only contains magic and various conflicting religious belief system, but not actual gods.

And George really makes fun of the religion he was brought up in ADwD when some chantings of the Queen's Men are very similar in content and tone to certain Catholic prayers...

This is only true if the Gods are suffenciently powerful and knowledgable- and if they were on the same side. What if the ASOIF "Gods" were once upon a time merely mortal men trying to understand the world around them? What if a being of immense power worships a God? Does that disqualify the incredibly powerful being from Godhood.

Again, If I lived in medeival Britan and could raise the dead, have the knowledge of 8,000 years of greenseers, see through flames I am sure people would worship eithor me or my beliefs as godlike.- However, even with all that power I would still be fallible, I couldnot be everywhere- hence the need for clergy.

[Care2Play]

The Internet isn't a god either.

Do you have a link for this native american believe system? Just curious.

Sorry, don't have a link- but certain interpretations of totenism are founded on the idea of the past dead being reverred and honored as spiritiual gods,- you can also look into standard pagenism.

The internet is only the collective knowledge of a hundred years. the weirnet is the collective knowledge of 8,000 years. - Furthermore, the internet isnot sentient- as the weirnet is implied to be. Also, its not me just making up this idea, in Brans Pov he postulates that the Weirnet and the Old Gods are one and the same.

If the internet was sentient, then it would be more powerful than many ancient Gods that people worshipped.-

[239JMFL34109]

What most people believe doesnot make it true. Trully powerful Greenseers ( like Bran) can see beyong Wierwoods.- Atleast according to BR. Even if the weirnet and the old Gods are different entities,- the Weirnet is powerful enough on its own to be considered a God.

We don't know what the COTF believe, but it's possible that they worship their dead greenseers as godlike beings ( native americans have a similar belief system)

If I knew that my father was watching me after death, you can make sure I would venerate his traditions.

power especially thought things like the "weirnet" a terrible thing to base on if someone or etc... is a god. any dragonlord was a god because the controlled a walking nuclear weapon. how is mel then not a god?

I could totally see how all the religions in the books are based on the powers of mortal men that over time turned into religions. I also see that GRRM is no really making fun of religion but just using real life religion as a guide in making the ones in his series.

BTW I think i some way it only matters if you are considered a god. I remember reading an author looked at the history of gods throughout the ages and tried to define a god as "a being with powers greater than those of ordinary humans, but who interacts with humans, positively or negatively, in ways that carry humans to new levels of consciousness beyond the grounded preoccupations of ordinary life." that just describes batman and superman too.

[239JMFL34109]

If the internet was sentient, then it would be more powerful than many ancient Gods that people worshipped.-

if you are talking about if an ancient god was real? then no

btw like someone says in early we are never totalled the greenseers were the old gods people talk about

maybe the old gods were based on talking to greenseers but maybe there were as it is a fantasy story.

[John Doe]

The internet is only the collective knowledge of a hundred years. the weirnet is the collective knowledge of 8,000 years. - Furthermore, the internet isnot sentient- as the weirnet is implied to be. Also, its not me just making up this idea, in Brans Pov he postulates that the Weirnet and the Old Gods are one and the same.

If the internet was sentient, then it would be more powerful than many ancient Gods that people worshipped.-

But the weirnet is not above the power of mortal men. You can cut down the trees and make it blind just like the andals initially did.

[Care2Play]

if you are talking about if an ancient god was real? then no

Really?

Lets look at who the Greeks worship.

Ἀκρατοπότης-god of unmixed wine

Άνθεια- goddess of flowers and flowery wreaths

Χρύσος-God of gold

Ειρεσιώνη, personification of the olive branch

Ὑμέναιος god of marriage and marriage feasts

Χλωρίς goddess of flowers

I am sure that the god of flowers was soo powerful and wise.....

power especially thought things like the "weirnet" a terrible thing to base on if someone or etc... is a god. any dragonlord was a god because the controlled a walking nuclear weapon. how is mel then not a god?

BTW I think i some way it only matters if you are considered a god. I remember reading an author looked at the history of gods throughout the ages and tried to define a god as "a being with powers greater than those of ordinary humans, but who interacts with humans, positively or negatively, in ways that carry humans to new levels of consciousness beyond the grounded preoccupations of ordinary life." that just describes batman and superman too.

I think the term God is relative, atleast in many world religeons.- Mel isnot a God because their are other beings of similar power ( although very few ) Same with superman.

If superman existed in ancient greece, people would worship him as eithor a god or demi-god. If he wanted them to.

If we don't define God by power and influence then what other criteria could their be? I think power is a perfectly reasonable standard to have for 'God" many egyptians worshipped their Kings as Gods on earth- literally, mortal men no smarter then me or you have been worshipped as Gods.

[ChillyPolly]

A "god" is a supernatural being who is worshipped. This may include a human being, especially one with supernatural powers (making him a supernatural being), who is worshipped. (By further extension it can include anything that is worshipped, whether human or statue, regardless of whether he she or it actually has supernatural powers).

Mel and Moqorro are human to some extent, but they are also supernatural beings - or at least beings who seem to demonstrate supernatural abilities. However, they are not gods, because they do not ask to be worshiped and are not worshipped. They not only deny that they are "gods", but even (at least in Moqorro's case) that they are "sorcerers". They insist that they are nothing more than tools and servants of Rh'llor and that all glory and honor and worship should go to him.

Varamyr Sixskins, however, is a supernatural (but human) being who is worshipped as a god.

[Care2Play]

A "god" is a supernatural being who is worshipped. This may include a human being, especially one with supernatural powers (making him a supernatural being), who is worshipped. (By further extension it can include anything that is worshipped, whether human or statue, regardless of whether he she or it actually has supernatural powers).

Mel and Moqorro are human to some extent, but they are also supernatural beings - or at least beings who seem to demonstrate supernatural abilities. However, they are not gods, because they do not ask to be worshiped and are not worshipped. They not only deny that they are "gods", but even (at least in Moqorro's case) that they are "sorcerers". They insist that they are nothing more than tools and servants of Rh'llor and that all glory and honor and worship should go to him.

Varamyr Sixskins, however, is a supernatural (but human) being who is worshipped as a god.

I totally agree with the distinction. What is a god to some, isnot a god to others. Insisting that you are a servent doesnot mean people will actually listen to you however.- Jesus did much the same and many view him as a godlike figure.

[John Doe]

Varamyr isn't a god.He cou slip on a banana peel and break his neck.

[Mikkel]

Varamyr isn't worshipped, certainly not as a god. He's obeyed, and given tribute in the manner of a tribal chieftain, only his power does not come from strength of arms, or wealth, or his followers - they come from his abilities to do things few other men can do. But he's no god, not to himself and to those he subjugated.

[King Crow]

But the weirnet is not above the power of mortal men. You can cut down the trees and make it blind just like the andals initially did.

I don't believe you have to be beyond the power of men to be considered a god. In popular culture a lot of the tutelary deities (guardian spirits) are able to be slain relatively easily; yet they are still granted god status. In the novel, when the Valryians slay some of the old men of the river (giant Rohyne Turtles) it doesn't shake the people's belief that they are lesser gods.

[239JMFL34109]

Really?

Lets look at who the Greeks worship.

Ἀκρατοπότης-god of unmixed wine

Άνθεια- goddess of flowers and flowery wreaths

Χρύσος-God of gold

Ειρεσιώνη, personification of the olive branch

Ὑμέναιος god of marriage and marriage feasts

Χλωρίς goddess of flowers

I am sure that the god of flowers was soo powerful and wise.....

I think the term God is relative, atleast in many world religeons.- Mel isnot a God because their are other beings of similar power ( although very few ) Same with superman.

If superman existed in ancient greece, people would worship him as eithor a god or demi-god. If he wanted them to.

If we don't define God by power and influence then what other criteria could their be? I think power is a perfectly reasonable standard to have for 'God" many egyptians worshipped their Kings as Gods on earth- literally, mortal men no smarter then me or you have been worshipped as Gods.

but none of those ancient gods could be killed. a god might be the god of music but also prophecy and wisdom and etc...they could explode stars the sun bring back the dead to life give young eternal and perfect knowledge of the future. if they were real. she might just be a god of flowers but that's life love ferity and the earth. If they were real of course.