renly appreciation thread

[Gibzit]

Don't like him. Condemned either himself or his brother to death when he crowned himself and he knew it. Neither Stannis or Renly are innocent in their confrontation but Stannis at least had just cause to fight for his claim. It would have been the ultimate show of weakness for Stannis to stand aside for Renly.

Not really,if Stannis had just stayed on Dragonstone nither Renly nor Stannis would have died.

[Sullen]

Don't like him. Condemned either himself or his brother to death when he crowned himself and he knew it. Neither Stannis or Renly are innocent in their confrontation but Stannis at least had just cause to fight for his claim. It would have been the ultimate show of weakness for Stannis to stand aside for Renly.

That said, his hysterical reaction to Joffrey's story and the name of his sword was absolutely brilliant.

Renly crowned himself before Stannis did, and had no idea of Stannis's claim.

Stannis is the one who condemned either of them to death.

[TeethGrinder]

Not really,if Stannis had just stayed on Dragonstone nither Renly nor Stannis would have died.

He would never have stayed on Dragonstone though. He would never declare for his little brother as king whether Joffrey was legitimate or not. He questioned abandoning Aerys for Robert, so he never would have abandoned either his own claim or his nephews for Renly.

Renly knew all of this about Stannis. Knew exactly the type of man he was. Crowned himself all the same and knowingly dividing his house.

Horrible.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He would never have stayed on Dragonstone though. He would never declare for his little brother as king whether Joffrey was legitimate or not. He questioned abandoning Aerys for Robert, so he never would have abandoned either his own claim or his nephews for Renly.

Renly knew all of this about Stannis. Knew exactly the type of man he was. Crowned himself all the same and knowingly dividing his house.

Horrible.

He was only following in Roberts tradition, usurping the Crown.

What is horrible is that Stannis knew that Robert was in trouble with the Lannisters and said nothing for eight months. He thought they would kill him and he just waited.

Stannis also knew that he would never get the same support as Renly, so he waited till after Renly had already declared and then assassinated his younger brother in a bid to steal his support. Truly horrible.

Stannis may well be the worst brother of the series.

[Fat Mac]

I don't think Renly was all bad, I just have no sympathy for him.

Stannis may well be the worst brother of the series.

A massive overstatement if I've ever heard one. No way is Stannis worse than Gregor or Euron.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

A massive overstatement if I've ever heard one. No way is Stannis worse than Gregor or Euron.

Euron only killed one brother, Stannis effectively killed two.

[TeethGrinder]

He was only following in Roberts tradition, usurping the Crown.

What is horrible is that Stannis knew that Robert was in trouble with the Lannisters and said nothing for eight months. He thought they would kill him and he just waited.

Stannis also knew that he would never get the same support as Renly, so he waited till after Renly had already declared and then assassinated his younger brother in a bid to steal his support. Truly horrible.

Stannis may well be the worst brother of the series.

There's no evidence that he thought they would kill Robert. I do hold it against Stannis for waiting on Dragonstone, but I don't think he was assuming Robert would be killed. I doubt we'll ever know for sure exactly what he was thinking/planning.

Stannis had shown previously that he was willing to starve himself near to death for his family, so I don't think he suddenly had an urge to kill them.

I'm not disagreeing that Stannis could have approached Renly differently. He waited for Renly to declare? What? You're think Stannis saw that coming? You think anyone did?

Stannis assassinated Renly after offering him pretty favourable terms all things considered. Renly had the support, but as rightful King Stannis felt they were his subjects and whether anyone else thought it or not, Stannis certainly did. It's also an open wound that Renly has the resources Storms End brings when Stannis always felt the castle should have been his, again with some justification. He used the means he had at his disposal to win. How evil it is is pretty debatable, we've yet to really find out truly the full consequence of the shadow assassins. They're magic which is all we really know. I love the scene where Stannis justifies his "conversion" so to speak.

Both Renly and Stannis should have set aside their crowns and dealt with their common enemies. They were both at fault for that. Catelyn was the only to see sense and she saw it too late.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

One of Martin's most well created and deceptive characters. I think a lot of readers tend to accept Renly at face value, a good man who had the love of the people and would have brought peace and stability to the realm. Renly has a sense of humor, which humanizes him, plus he seems active in his efforts to destabilize the Lannister regime and he was never directly opposed to our Stark heroes.

But Renly has a much darker side to him. When Stannis found out about the possible incest, he went to Jon Arryn with the intent of eventually gathering enough evidence to remove the Lannisters from power.

At some point Renly found out the truth about Cersei's children as well, but instead of going to his brother the king, or the lord Arryn, he went to the Tyrells. His scheme to remove the Lannister regime and replace it with a Tyrell one by marrying Robert to Margaery never got the chance to work because Robert up and died.

I'd like to note, that when Robert lay dying, Renly offered Ned his "100 swords" but NOT for the purpose of putting himself on the throne. This was something he did on the show but not in the book. It was only after Renly fled to Highgarden that he declared himself king. I think this speaks to a certain influence that the Tyrells have over him.

Later, when he recklessly rides out with a portion of his forces to meet Stannis at Storm's End, he disregards Catelyn's pleas of peace and for a great council to determine the next king. He states specifically that he intends for Stannis to die in the ensuing battle, so Stannis might have succeeded in kinslaying his brother but Renly wanted to do the same.

Again, another side note to Renly's battle strategy. Stannis's forces are more archery based, as evidenced by Maester Cressan overhearing their practice in the prologue chapter. Renly's force is mostly cavalry, and his strategy is to ride in guns blazing. Anyone who knows anything about English medieval history knows that England's use of archers against French cavalry was devastating.

I know this is a Renly appreciation thread and I've spent this whole post degrading Renly, but I still like him as a character. House Baratheon is full of tragic heroes and flawed men. I see Renly as the worst of the Baratheon brothers, but definitely interesting and engaging. I disagree with those who feel like he would have been a good king or are outraged that he was killed by demon magic, but he's a great character notwithstanding.

[Sullen]

There's no evidence that he thought they would kill Robert. I do hold it against Stannis for waiting on Dragonstone, but I don't think he was assuming Robert would be killed. I doubt we'll ever know for sure exactly what he was thinking/planning.

If he thinks they'd be willing to kill him or Arryn, it's no stretch to say they'd be willing to kill Robert as well, especially so considering that their grasp on power was threatened as long as either Stannis or Robert was alive. He did know Robert was in danger, he just preferred to save his ass.

Stannis had shown previously that he was willing to starve himself near to death for his family, so I don't think he suddenly had an urge to kill them.

He starved himself for his family, yes, and then spent 15 years whining about how unsatisfactory the reward he got for his service was, not to mention that he later murders his other brother.

I'm not disagreeing that Stannis could have approached Renly differently. He waited for Renly to declare? What? You're think Stannis saw that coming? You think anyone did?

Mel saw Renly declaring in the fire, and she saw Renly's death as Stannis's means to an army.

And yeah, the Lannisters saw Renly declaring coming.

Stannis assassinated Renly after offering him pretty favourable terms all things considered. Renly had the support, but as rightful King Stannis felt they were his subjects and whether anyone else thought it or not, Stannis certainly did. It's also an open wound that Renly has the resources Storms End brings when Stannis always felt the castle should have been his, again with some justification. He used the means he had at his disposal to win. How evil it is is pretty debatable, we've yet to really find out truly the full consequence of the shadow assassins. They're magic which is all we really know. I love the scene where Stannis justifies his "conversion" so to speak.

1) Considering the circumstances under which they met, Renly's offer was way more generous than Stannis's/

2) Stannis is not rightful in the eyes of anyone until he has proof

3) Storm's End should have not been his, Robert should have kept it for his sons (same with Dragonstone)

At some point Renly found out the truth about Cersei's children as well, but instead of going to his brother the king, or the lord Arryn, he went to the Tyrells. His scheme to remove the Lannister regime and replace it with a Tyrell one by marrying Robert to Margaery never got the chance to work because Robert up and died.

Renly never knew about Cersei's children, he thought they were legitimate, which is why he was surprised when Stannis declared and attacked him instead of joining him.

[Ser Eric]

Probably would have been the best king of the Baratheon lot but he's also the most boring of them. Can't say I was too bothered by it.

Robert and Stannis are far more interesting characters.

[TeethGrinder]

If he thinks they'd be willing to kill him or Arryn, it's no stretch to say they'd be willing to kill Robert as well, especially so considering that their grasp on power was threatened as long as either Stannis or Robert was alive. He did know Robert was in danger, he just preferred to save his ass.

He starved himself for his family, yes, and then spent 15 years whining about how unsatisfactory the reward he got for his service was, not to mention that he later murders his other brother.

Mel saw Renly declaring in the fire, and she saw Renly's death as Stannis's means to an army.

And yeah, the Lannisters saw Renly declaring coming.

1) Considering the circumstances under which they met, Renly's offer was way more generous than Stannis's/

2) Stannis is not rightful in the eyes of anyone until he has proof

3) Storm's End should have not been his, Robert should have kept it for his sons (same with Dragonstone)

Renly never knew about Cersei's children, he thought they were legitimate, which is why he was surprised when Stannis declared and attacked him instead of joining him.

We don't know what Stannis was thinking, although like I said I do hold it against him. Telling Robert wasn't exactly straightforward either.

He was right to complain. It was a personal slight at him by a man who wouldn't have been King without him. He then also lands the crushing blow of the Greyjoy rebellion and gets no recognition once more. Robert's hatred of Stannis was pretty irrational, Stannis' hatred of him was more than fair. Stannis didn't want to kill Renly, it haunts him that he did, but it became a case of one or the other. You can't say "OH HE KILLED RENLY" without mentioning the very obvious point of Renly intending to kill him. At best they were as bad as each other.

I'm not recalling Renly declaring being foreshadowed, may be forgetting. I do remember that Mel saw Renly defeat him at KL (Obviously Garlan) which was what Stannis assumed would happen if he didn't deal with Renly.

Give it a rest with "not rightful" bs. He's rightful in his own eyes and the readers and that's all that matters. He shouldn't set aside his own right because his brother thought he'd look pretty with a crown. Again it doesn't matter, Renly is either usurping his brother or his nephews. He's knowingly betraying his own family and he knew Stannis wouldn't support him. His offer wasn't "fair" because nothing he was doing was "fair". Cressen and Olenna were pretty neutral and they pretty much nailed it.

"He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king" - QOT

"Look at me, I’m a king," Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did?" - Cressen

Cressen nailed it. He was willingly tearing apart House Baratheon and either didn't know or didn't care.

Renly was a fool.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He was right to complain. It was a personal slight at him by a man who wouldn't have been King without him.

What?

[TeethGrinder]

What?

Robert would have been defeated if Stannis didn't hold Storms End.

Edit: Maybe not defeated but it would have been an uphill fight and Tywin likely wouldn't have pulled his last minute hero act.

[Gibzit]

Cressen nailed it. He was willingly tearing apart House Baratheon and either didn't know or didn't care.

Renly was a fool.

Oh Renly was a fool? Stannis put the nail in the Baratheon coffin the second he made a shadow baby with Mell.

[TeethGrinder]

Oh Renly was a fool? Stannis put the nail in the Baratheon coffin the second he made a shadow baby with Mell.

Way to ignore everything I just wrote.

You cannot blame Stannis for killing Renly without acknowledging that he planned on doing the same, just through different means.

Renly willfully took up arms against House Baratheon. Stannis did it reluctantly.

[Gibzit]

Way to ignore everything I just wrote.

You cannot blame Stannis for killing Renly without acknowledging that he planned on doing the same, just through different means.

Renly willfully took up arms against House Baratheon. Stannis did it reluctantly.

No, Renly was camping at Bitterbridge, Stannis was the one who sailed to SE to attack Renly.

[TeethGrinder]

No, Renly was camping at Bitterbridge, Stannis was the one who sailed to SE to treat with Renly.

Fixed.

Again, ignoring everything I've said.

He would have to come up against Stannis eventually, who would have been supporting either his own claim or his nephew's. In no alternate world could Stannis ever fight for Renly as his king. It's absurd to think so and Renly would have known that.

Stannis' claim is actually irrelevant. Renly was knowingly usurping a family member. Either his very recently deceased brother's children or his other older brother (both pretty deplorable) and he knew he'd likely have to go through all of them.

Top bloke though.

[Gibzit]

Fixed.

Again, ignoring everything I've said.

He would have to come up against Stannis eventually, who would have been supporting either his own claim or his nephews. In no alternate world could Stannis ever fight for Renly as his king. It's absurd to think so and Renly would have known that.

Stannis' claim is actually irrelevant. Renly was knowingly usurping a family member. Either his very recently deceased brother's children or his other older brother and he knew he'd likely have to go through all of them.

Top bloke though.

So why did Stannis bring his army along and besiege SE if all he wanted to do was treat with Renly? Stannis could've aided Renly's blockade thorugh the sea and they would have treated in KL after the Lannister's heads were on spikes.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

If he thinks they'd be willing to kill him or Arryn, it's no stretch to say they'd be willing to kill Robert as well, especially so considering that their grasp on power was threatened as long as either Stannis or Robert was alive. He did know Robert was in danger, he just preferred to save his ass.

He starved himself for his family, yes, and then spent 15 years whining about how unsatisfactory the reward he got for his service was, not to mention that he later murders his other brother.

Mel saw Renly declaring in the fire, and she saw Renly's death as Stannis's means to an army.

And yeah, the Lannisters saw Renly declaring coming.

1) Considering the circumstances under which they met, Renly's offer was way more generous than Stannis's/

2) Stannis is not rightful in the eyes of anyone until he has proof

3) Storm's End should have not been his, Robert should have kept it for his sons (same with Dragonstone)

Renly never knew about Cersei's children, he thought they were legitimate, which is why he was surprised when Stannis declared and attacked him instead of joining him.

He's not surprised, she tells him and he literally just brushes it off. He only pretended not to know because if they're all just rebels his claim is as good as anyone's, but if Joffrey and crew are bastards, then Stannis is definitely the legitimate heir. Renly was also the guardian of Edric Storm. Don't tell me he looked at what Stannis considers his best evidence for infidelity by the queen and didn't wonder himself.

He was never surprised that Stannis didn't want to join with him. Knowing what he knows about his brother, Renly is breaking the most central of Westerosi laws regarding primogeniture and inheritance. Even if Stannis didn't know Joffrey was a bastard, Renly is just using might and force to take the throne. Renly's law is might is right.

[H.P.]

Watching the show I never would have believed Renly was supposed to be a super likable character

Totally agree. Watching the show, I shook my head in disbelief at Renly's constant claims of "I'd make a better king than Stannis". I was all like, "what's that super-boring dweeb on about? In what way would he make a better king than anybody?" Just couldn't wrap my head around it.

Then I read the books, and I was like "oh".