If you were Walder Frey, what would you do?

[Lee-Sensei]

Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. The Tullys had already thrown in their lot with the Starks from the time that Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon. Do you not think that murdering Hoster's future son-in-law was sufficient cause on its own for him to go to war with the Mad King?

As to Lysa's betrothal to Jon Arryn, that was a marriage of convenience on both sides. Lysa was known to be 'spoiled goods' due to her affair with Littlefinger and subsequent pregnancy - desperate to find a mate. Jon Arryn was, I guess "a catch" as a Lord Paramount, but was also without heir, and quite aged. He was equally desperate to find a wife who was PROVED to be fertile. Lysa suited his needs, and Lord Hoster was more than happy to have found her such a felicitous marriage, yes. But it was not the price paid for his participation in Robert's Rebellion.

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Word for word.

[A Man Has Said]

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Word for word.

Fair enough, and nice job providing such an on-point quotation.

..BUT, does Catelyn really Know that this is true? Does Hoster acknowledge the truth of it?

There's no response from Hoster in this passage. He may have been (and likely was) unconscious.

It's a soliloquy, not a conversation.

In the following paragraph, Catelyn is waking up the next morning and having breakfast.

In the preceding paragraph, Catelyn has just realized for the first time that Lysa ever had been pregnant:

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father’s words, and much else besides... Lysa’s match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother’s son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King’s Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the

Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue... a young wife known to be fertile.

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe...

Go back a couple of more paragraphs still, and it becomes clear that this is all Catelyn 'putting two and two together' and maybe coming up with 4, maybe 5, maybe the square root of minus pi. It's speculation on her part.

I refer you to this line: "Could Tansy be some pet name he called Lysa, the way he called me Cat?"-*

It doesn't exactly portray Catelyn as being anywhere near perfectly informed on the issues*. Yes, she probably sussed out correctly that Lysa had become pregnant and Hoster had intervened to induce an abortion. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's right about any deal between Hoster and Jon Arryn to which she was not privy.

You've certainly given me cause to reconsider the matter though.

..But that said, there's a very large element of 'unreliable narrator' in this passage.

(* - This is a bit stunning to me. How could she NOT know the pet name that her father called her sister?!?

I would call that GRRM 'hanging a lantern' on Catelyn's imperfect knowledge.)

[MistressofWhisperers]

Well, the fight in the Riverlands was never about rebelling against the IT. The whole thing started when the Lannisters invaded the Riverlands with two huge armies and laid seige to Riverrun. Okay, Cat did kidnap Tyrion and that was the impetus for it, but she did this without any Tully consent. In fact, Ned Stark takes full responsibility for her actions so wouldn't it be more logical to invade the North or the Eyrie where Tyrion is actually being held? It's pretty clear that the honorable thing for Frey to do would be to call the banners and defend your territory (Frey's lands were also being affected, although less so) and that such an act is not defiance against the IT. It became a rebellion only after Robb crowned himself KITN and the Trident and the riverlords swore fealty to him officially at the end of AGOT, otherwise this was purely a Tully vs. Lannister conflict, with Lannisters as the aggressors.

[Lee-Sensei]

Well, the fight in the Riverlands was never about rebelling against the IT. The whole thing started when the Lannisters invaded the Riverlands with two huge armies and laid seige to Riverrun. Okay, Cat did kidnap Tyrion and that was the impetus for it, but she did this without any Tully consent. In fact, Ned Stark takes full responsibility for her actions so wouldn't it be more logical to invade the North or the Eyrie where Tyrion is actually being held? It's pretty clear that the honorable thing for Frey to do would be to call the banners and defend your territory (Frey's lands were also being affected, although less so) and that such an act is not defiance against the IT. It became a rebellion only after Robb crowned himself KITN and the Trident and the riverlords swore fealty to him officially at the end of AGOT, otherwise this was purely a Tully vs. Lannister conflict, with Lannisters as the aggressors.

Cat took Tyrion hostage using Tully bannermen, the Lannisters couldn't successfully invade the Vale or the North, the Freys did defend their land and Tywin was the Hand of the King.

[The non-bastard Bolton]

I'm not exactly sure that I understand the question.

If I personally were in Walder Frey's place? That's easy. I would never have betrayed my liege lord to begin with, Robb would have crossed the bridge without any issues, and with no obligations to wed any of my daughters. That would have been my clear duty under Westerosi conventions. (where, and this has been discussed before, loyalty to your liege lord takes precedent over loyalty to the crown. The only time that this has not pertained was when the consequences were a lot higher: namely dragons.) Because I'm not a low-life treacherous piece of dung.

I'd have called my banners and given full support to the Tully/Stark cause. If offered any other opportunities by the Lannisters or the Boltons, I would have used that to screw the Lannisters and/or the Boltons to the maximum extent possible.

`~~`

If I were LIKE Lord Walder, and had already betrayed my liege, and blackmailed an ally (and the son of the liege's daughter) earlier on in the story - that matter is already settled.

We know what Walder actually did, and if we are adhering to his personality type as depicted in the novels, he does all the same things for the same reasons. Namely, that he's a low-life treacherous piece of dung.

`~~`

ETA: ninja'd by Jaime the Humbled on the first point and by White Corvus on the second. Probably by more people further up thread.

As is my custom, I respond to the OP first, then read other responses, and if appropriate, I then respond to those.

What would you do if you were yourself in the skin of Walder at the time specified by my original thread - I understand that you might not have done the things Walder did if you were yourself at the start, but the point of this thread is a speculation of what could have Walder done AT THE TIME (assuming that everything up to that time already happened) - it is sort of a discussion of what options were open to Walder besides the Red Wedding (and, yes, you can look at it from your perspective).

Also, the loyalty to liege lord is not written in stone, by the way, especially when that liege lord rebels against their king (ditching one king for another is rebellion against your original king) - if they break their vows to the king, they are fair game, as far as I am concerned. I can see where your sympathies lie and that is fine by me, although I would not agree with your course of action, but more for practical reasons than any moral obligation (I would not follow an unproven and hormonal 16-year-old into battle against the realm's most ruthless and fearsome commander, ESPECIALLY that there is no gain in it for me - Ned Stark was nothing to Walder). Personally, I think that what Walder did (setting terms to Robb before helping him) was clever and I can definitely understand his course of action.

Well, the fight in the Riverlands was never about rebelling against the IT. The whole thing started when the Lannisters invaded the Riverlands with two huge armies and laid seige to Riverrun. Okay, Cat did kidnap Tyrion and that was the impetus for it, but she did this without any Tully consent. In fact, Ned Stark takes full responsibility for her actions so wouldn't it be more logical to invade the North or the Eyrie where Tyrion is actually being held? It's pretty clear that the honorable thing for Frey to do would be to call the banners and defend your territory (Frey's lands were also being affected, although less so) and that such an act is not defiance against the IT. It became a rebellion only after Robb crowned himself KITN and the Trident and the riverlords swore fealty to him officially at the end of AGOT, otherwise this was purely a Tully vs. Lannister conflict, with Lannisters as the aggressors.

Haha, Lee Sensei replied to this while I was writing my responses - yes, I do agree that Catelyn did use some Tully bannermen and, from memory, she did wave her Tully origins in the inn quite a bit; also, she herself was obviously a Tully originally and that is where she came from.

I also think you are underplaying the importance of Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion -it was a pretty serious thing, kidnapping a member of a fellow major house with very little evidence (yes, the evidence against Tyrion was VERY sketchy and would not hold up in court), especially someone like a Lannister.

Plus, the rebellion would officially happen when Ned was arrested for treason and Robb refused to acknowledge that and raised his banners instead which was way before Robb making himself king - therefore, him attempting to cross the Twins and his battle against Jaime (who, remember, was a Kingsguard) was a matter of rebel fighting against Crown's representative (as it happened after raising of the banners).

[lyannaisalive]

Cat took Tyrion hostage using Tully bannermen, the Lannisters couldn't successfully invade the Vale or the North, the Freys did defend their land and Tywin was the Hand of the King.

At the time Tywin was not hand of the king. The Lannisters rebelled before anybody else. Tywin was unbelievably lucky that Rob was attacked by the boar. If not Tywin invaded the riverlands and would be facing Ned in open war and Robert would need to choose a side, which its easy to see who Robert would be against in this scenario. If robert lives Tywin would be looking at open war against the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys and likely Tyrells. Not to mention Dorne might be wanting in on that action.

[Lee-Sensei]

At the time Tywin was not hand of the king. The Lannisters rebelled before anybody else. Tywin was unbelievably lucky that Rob was attacked by the boar. If not Tywin invaded the riverlands and would be facing Ned in open war and Robert would need to choose a side, which its easy to see who Robert would be against in this scenario. If robert lives Tywin would be looking at open war against the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys and likely Tyrells. Not to mention Dorne might be wanting in on that action.

1) You're right. Tywin wasn't Hand of the King, but neither was Ned. Robert was Kingand he said to free Tyrion and make peace with the Lannisters.

[lyannaisalive]

1) You're right. Tywin wasn't Hand of the King, but neither was Ned. Robert was Kingand he said to free Tyrion and make peace with the Lannisters.

At which point he made Ned hand again. Then as acting King ned ordered Tywin to appear for his crimes. I think its important to acknowledge Ned did this AFTER the lords came to him and told their story so at this point there was open rebellion by Tywin in the riverlands. War was coming, Tywin would refuse and Ned would call his banners. War was unavoidable at this point even by Robert.

[Lee-Sensei]

At which point he made Ned hand again. Then as acting King ned ordered Tywin to appear for his crimes. I think its important to acknowledge Ned did this AFTER the lords came to him and told their story so at this point there was open rebellion by Tywin in the riverlands. War was coming, Tywin would refuse and Ned would call his banners. War was unavoidable at this point even by Robert.

That's all irrelevant. Robert made his decision. Honestly, joining the war at that point would be treasonous.

[lyannaisalive]

That's all irrelevant. Robert made his decision. Honestly, joining the war at that point would be treasonous.

its completely relevant. Robert didnt make his decision. He was speaking about releasing Tyrion nd the fight between Jaime and Ned.. At this point Tywin had not attacked the riverlands yet, Ned learned of this after Robert left to hunt. There is a big difference between a fight between Jaime and Ned and open rebellion by Tywin

[Ser Greg of House House]

If I was thinking like him, I'd do everything just the same, but killing Robb in a different way. No need to go overboard and taint your House like that.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

At the time Tywin was not hand of the king. The Lannisters rebelled before anybody else. Tywin was unbelievably lucky that Rob was attacked by the boar. If not Tywin invaded the riverlands and would be facing Ned in open war and Robert would need to choose a side, which its easy to see who Robert would be against in this scenario. If robert lives Tywin would be looking at open war against the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys and likely Tyrells. Not to mention Dorne might be wanting in on that action.

By the time Ned came to the Twins Tywin was Hand.

[lyannaisalive]

By the time Ned came to the Twins Tywin was Hand.

you mean Robb came to the twins. and we were talking about Tywins initial attack by sending clegane into the riverlands at which point Ned was hand and Robert was alive

[MistressofWhisperers]

its completely relevant. Robert didnt make his decision. He was speaking about releasing Tyrion nd the fight between Jaime and Ned.. At this point Tywin had not attacked the riverlands yet, Ned learned of this after Robert left to hunt. There is a big difference between a fight between Jaime and Ned and open rebellion by Tywin

This. Robert was out hunting. Ned was literally sitting on the IT as the Hand when the riverlords came and pled their case about the destruction of their holdfasts & villages. Ned sent out a party led by Berric to apprehend Gregor Clegane and also ordered Tywin to court. He literally called Tywin out on his bullshit. The only reason Tywin wasn't branded a rebel was because Robert died and Joffrey, his puppet, was installed on the IT and even then the riverlords were never declared rebels until they joined up with Robb, which I don't blame them for doing because he was the only one who stood up for them.

[Lee-Sensei]

its completely relevant. Robert didnt make his decision. He was speaking about releasing Tyrion nd the fight between Jaime and Ned.. At this point Tywin had not attacked the riverlands yet, Ned learned of this after Robert left to hunt. There is a big difference between a fight between Jaime and Ned and open rebellion by Tywin

It isn't. The Starks are the reason things were escalating.

[lyannaisalive]

It isn't. The Starks are the reason things were escalating.

Ned Stark is hand of the king and had every right to do what he did. Tywin ignored a command form the hand iof the king and called his banners thus rebelling against the Iron throne. Ned did what he did because of Clegane not because of Tyrion.

[John Doe]

I just wouldn't let his army pass and pretend he was not there. Pretty sure Tywin and Randyll will sometimes go up and defeat him in battle.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

you mean Robb came to the twins. and we were talking about Tywins initial attack by sending clegane into the riverlands at which point Ned was hand and Robert was alive

He sent him in without banners. It was a Black Ops mission.

[lyannaisalive]

He sent him in without banners. It was a Black Ops mission.

And as Ned says the mountain is Tywin Lannisters bannermen. Which is why Ned ordered him to appear to answer for the crimes of the Mountain or be branded a traitor to the crown.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And as Ned says the mountain is Tywin Lannisters bannermen. Which is why Ned ordered him to appear to answer for the crimes of the Mountain or be branded a traitor to the crown.

Is that from the Tv show or the books?